2017 F1 General Discussion Topic

[camelspyyder]

Busy night for Mercedes building a new car I think?

 

Just to start in P20 behind STR, Sauber and all the other guys...

 

 

Edited 11 November, 2017 by camelspyyder

[camelspyyder]

Great job from #VB77 to beat Vettel.

 

Surprised to see RedBull Renault (TAG-whatever) absolutely nowhere - even Max over 6/10ths away on this really short circuit.

[moley]

Could be interesting to see what Hamilton can do from the back. 

Good result for Bottas.

[kevberlin]

Hamilton couldn’t bring himself to say he made a mistake.

Vettel admits he chickened out a bit on the brakes.

[XLBaconDoubleCheese]

First interview I saw he admitted his mistake and said it shows they're human and can **** up. 

 

As much as it was a bit comical to see his first competitive lap after being crowned ending up in the wall, it shows just how close to the edge they really are, even though they look to be cruising. 

 

I'm looking forward to seeing how well him and Dan can make their was up the pack, nothing to lose, balls out driving hopefully. 

[moley]

Hamilton will start from the pit lane with a new engine MGU-H and turbocharger fitted.

[lol-lol]

11 hours ago, camelspyyder said:

Great job from #VB77 to beat Vettel.

Surprised to see RedBull Renault (TAG-whatever) absolutely nowhere - even Max over 6/10ths away on this really short circuit.

 

Not really if you study previous races at Brazil, it has usually been Sector 3 that has been the issue for the Renault engines in this second turbo era.

 

Section 1 and 2 there is almost nothing in it but when they turn the last corner on the flatish bit to start the climb back up to the finish straight it has been and is still a bit of a story particularly in qualifying and to a lesser extend in the race.  If Max can hand on the Ferraris and Merc coattails in the first two laps without DRS and then he might make a go if it and, as we have seen, in race setup if he is a few tenth quicker in S1 and S2 then we may have an interesting race or even a dominant performance as we had in Mexico.

 

Hopefully be a little interesting, good if it get close to last years Max show in the damp conditions. At least we have MotoGP today which will be about ten times better to watch.  MotoGP signed up for another 3 years in the UK, F1 maybe only a couple more year in the UK due to the lack of economic viability going the way of Malaysia.   

[camelspyyder]

To be honest I find Riccardo Tormo a bit of a dull track for MotoGP; The races there just never thrill me.

It is a bit of a crap place for the season finale every year, but then Spain owns MotoGP, just like the USA owns F1 -

I wonder where the F1 season finale will be when Liberty start changing the schedule - Long Beach?

Edited 12 November, 2017 by camelspyyder

[lol-lol]

But then....

 

 

[moley]

Warm and sunny in Brazil today, no sign of rain like yesterday. Bottas to win?

[moley]

I just heard that all of the Renault engine cars are de-tuned to achieve some reliability for the race.

[XLBaconDoubleCheese]

1 hour ago, moley said:

I just heard that all of the Renault engine cars are de-tuned to achieve some reliability for the race.

 

Yeah strange one. They said the turbos were turned down so they were spinning less but reckoned it didnt reduce peak power, just took longer to get there. 

 

Decent race, Vettel had it in the bag from the off I think, nice drive from Hamilton & some impressive overtakes from Dan. Harsh on Grosjean I thought. 

 

[lol-lol]

Looks like a bad mistake for the Red Bulls not to do a two stopper as Max blitzes the fastest lap times  (0.8 quicker than anyone else) ......

 

https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula-one-world-championship/season-2017/eventtiming-information-37 

2017_19_bra_f1_r0_timing_racefastestlaps_v01.pdf

 

Nice of DHL to give the prize for the fastest lap  https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/awards/dhl-fastest-lap-2017.html 

A minor thing to pick-up the trophy for that but it sounded like it was important for Max to get that one on the shelf.

 

POS NO        DRIVER NAT ENTRANT                                                         TIME ON GAP KPH TIME OF DAY

1      33          M. VERSTAPPEN NED Red Bull Racing                               1:11.044 64 218.349 15:26:27

2      44          L. HAMILTON GBR Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team   1:11.845 63 0.801 215.914 15:24:46

3      18          L. STROLL CAN Williams Martini Racing                            1:11.862 0.818 0.017 69 215.863 15:35:07

4        3          D. RICCIARDO AUS Red Bull Racing                                    1:12.029 0.985 0.167 71 215.363 15:35:10

5       77         V. BOTTAS FIN Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team           1:12.466 1.422 0.437 58 214.064 15:18:37

6         7          K. RAIKKONEN FIN Scuderia Ferrari                                   1:12.492 1.448 0.026 61 213.987 15:22:18

7         5          S. VETTEL GER Scuderia Ferrari                                          1:12.539 1.495 0.047 63 213.849 15:24:39 

 

Edited 13 November, 2017 by lol-lol

[camelspyyder]

He isn't the first driver to take a late stop for sticky rubber and chuck in a fast lap. (see Stroll's ridiculous best lap for evidence).

I bet if he could have done 10 of those laps on each of 2 sets of super softs then RBR would have planned a 2 stop (10x0.8s = 16 sec for the pitstop) (why the commentators said it would be 22, I don't know - everyone I saw lost about 16 secs on laptime)

 

Hamilton's lap speed was constrained by having to make the super softs last 30 laps.

 

Also, as mentioned by Mr Ginger Spice last time out, Max gets a bonus $$$ for fastest lap.

[lol-lol]

18 hours ago, camelspyyder said:

He isn't the first driver to take a late stop for sticky rubber and chuck in a fast lap. (see Stroll's ridiculous best lap for evidence).

I bet if he could have done 10 of those laps on each of 2 sets of super softs then RBR would have planned a 2 stop (10x0.8s = 16 sec for the pitstop) (why the commentators said it would be 22, I don't know - everyone I saw lost about 16 secs on laptime)

 

Hamilton's lap speed was constrained by having to make the super softs last 30 laps.

 

Also, as mentioned by Mr Ginger Spice last time out, Max gets a bonus $$$ for fastest lap.

 

Which race did Stoll do a fast lap on as all the Fastest laps in 2017 where by Ferrari, Merc or Red Bull except for the car park circuits of Hungary and Monaco?

 

https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/awards/dhl-fastest-lap-2017.html

 

I heard 18 seconds for a pit stop which could be made up in twenty laps or so on the very soft rubber.  

 

The Mercs were rubbish in sector two ie the handling bit but the merc power unit made it up in the hill climb in sector 3.

 

https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula-one-world-championship/season-2017/eventtiming-information-37 

 

Work to do before start of 2018 but Goshn has given Renault the budget to do it so perhaps, finally, we will get a fun F1 season after 4 years of yawning.

MotoGP was a bit disappointing, Zarco being the bright spot IMO, but MM a worthy winner as his talent and bravery is beyond question.

Edited 14 November, 2017 by lol-lol

[camelspyyder]

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Which race did Stoll do a fast lap on as all the Fastest laps in 2017 where by Ferrari, Merc or Red Bull except for the car park circuits of Hungary and Monaco?

 

https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/awards/dhl-fastest-lap-2017.html

 

 

 

Why don't you read your own posts Lol?

 

In your previous one (3 up from here) the data you posted states that Lance Stroll, permanent backmarker, did the 3rd fastest lap in Sundays Brazilian GP, faster than Vettel, Bottas, Kimi, and Riccardo, I am guessing you didn't read any of the lines after Verstappens headline grabbing time?

 

Stroll too stopped for a set of reds right at the end, proving that anyone (not just Max V) can do a couple of low fuel fast laps on a new set.

 

You could say forcing a 1:11.8 out of the current Williams is some way more impressive than going only 0.8 faster in a RedBull.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 14 November, 2017 by camelspyyder

[lol-lol]

4 hours ago, camelspyyder said:

 

Why don't you read your own posts Lol?

 

In your previous one (3 up from here) the data you posted states that Lance Stroll, permanent backmarker, did the 3rd fastest lap in Sundays Brazilian GP, faster than Vettel, Bottas, Kimi, and Riccardo, I am guessing you didn't read any of the lines after Verstappens headline grabbing time?

 

Stroll too stopped for a set of reds right at the end, proving that anyone (not just Max V) can do a couple of low fuel fast laps on a new set.

 

You could say forcing a 1:11.8 out of the current Williams is some way more impressive than going only 0.8 faster in a RedBull.

 

Oh I thought you meant he has got a fasted lap in one race not a third fastest lap in the Brazilian race.

 

I like Stoll, have grown up partly in Canada I am fan of most things Canadian, his third in Azer was quite impressive but then the Merc powered Williams does do well at the tracks with long straights but it is even worse than the full Mercedes package in the twisty bit.

 

Max's last 8 laps were quicker than any of Vettels laps and the data suggest to me that Max should have done the first stop around lap 25 and then the second stop around lap 50, probably could have run less fuel as well.

 

I think Horner cocked up and I think Max thinks so too and that cannot help the case for Max staying at red Bull beyond 2018.   

 

[camelspyyder]

I don't know why any of the big boys didn't 2 stop then? I think it could have lost them track position to Hamilton but its certainly a track that allows passing.

 

I know their contracts aren't worth the paper they're written on, but hasn't Max has just extended to 2020 with RBR?

 

Horner stated recently that only Vettel, once he was a multiple champ, ever had escape clauses written into a RB contract (which he exercised when things didn't go his way in '14). No other driver has been afforded that privilege at the team.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 14 November, 2017 by camelspyyder

[moley]

11 hours ago, lol-lol said:

I heard 18 seconds for a pit stop which could be made up in twenty laps or so on the very soft rubber.  

20 laps just to get you back to where you left and could put you out in to traffic, by the time you have caught back up your tyres are shot.

 

Work to do before start of 2018 but Verstappen has signed to Red Bull until the end of 2020Goshn has given Renault the budget to do it so perhaps, finally, we will get a fun F1 season after 4 years of yawning.

Is the budget for Renault F1 team? Red Bull are just a customer. The new 3 engine rule is just what Renault need . I thought the 4 years of yawning were 2010 - 2013. 

 

4 hours ago, lol-lol said:

Max's last 8 laps were quicker than any of Vettels laps and the data suggest to me that Max should have done the first stop around lap 25 and then the second stop around lap 50, probably could have run less fuel as well.

This might be true, but vettel started second and finished first, Verstappen started forth and finished fifth.

 

I think Horner cocked up and I think Max thinks so too and that cannot help the case for Max staying at red Bull beyond 2018.   

Verstappen has signed with Red Bull until the end of 2020

 

[lol-lol]

1 hour ago, moley said:

 

 

Bottas cocked up the start and could not pass the slower Ferrari.  

 

Lewis got very lucky with the Safety Car and was gifted the big disadvantage he had from start from the pit lane after binning it in Qualifying, lucky tax avoider.

 

If Max had gone on two stop Lewis would not have got past him I reckon.  Perhaps Mr Old Spice his loosing is edge or the team strategist, Max seems to see these things even when pulling more G than anyone else in the corners and he still sounds more lucid then anyone else even with everything else going on.

 

F1 has been fairly dull for a decade or two as either Merc, Red Bull or Ferrari has dominated and overtaking has become much too difficult in the dry.

 

Bring back refuelling, make the races 250 miles maybe. Shake and Bake.  

 

I expect Ferrari or Merc could buy Max out of his RB contract as all 4 of their drivers are probably to retire or continue to prove they are not in the top 6 drivers in the F1 paddock.       

[moley]

The teams use software to work out a strategy for each driver, this includes pit stops. If Verstappen had pitted early for softs then their is a chance the cars immediately in front might have also pitted to cover that move or they would have calculated to stay out. If you look at the two laps either side of the 1st pit stop for Verstappen  when he was running 1:14's the laps were +5.8 and +15.6 totalling 21.4 seconds. He finished around 27 seconds behind Hamilton. I recall Mercedes predicted Hamilton would get 6th, the safety car helped a bit, but not so much at the beginning of the race.

 

[lol-lol]

6 hours ago, moley said:

The teams use software to work out a strategy for each driver, this includes pit stops. If Verstappen had pitted early for softs then their is a chance the cars immediately in front might have also pitted to cover that move or they would have calculated to stay out. If you look at the two laps either side of the 1st pit stop for Verstappen  when he was running 1:14's the laps were +5.8 and +15.6 totalling 21.4 seconds. He finished around 27 seconds behind Hamilton. I recall Mercedes predicted Hamilton would get 6th, the safety car helped a bit, but not so much at the beginning of the race.

 

 

 

Hammy, the Hamster, squirrel those millions away, got an 11 second gift, as well as several places, by the chaos in the first lap and put Dani behind Lewis from the shunt he got.

 

The Pirelli "tyre-by-lap" looks like Max's first stint on the used Supers was too long and the second stint too short.  Yes they use predictive software but I don't think it factors in Max's abilities advantage enough.  Should have taken the initiative and gone first no later than 25 IMO or even 23 ie third race distance and as one is carrying that fuel load with the 80 kgs or so.

 

Toto, the Merc boss not the dog in The Wizard of Oz, I heard say they would get 4th with a safety car or 6/7 th without one. they got the safety car like manna from heaven super early on to maximise it benefit and Riki Bobby needed to pit to check for damage from the shunt. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 15 November, 2017 by lol-lol

[moley]

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

 

Hammy, the Hamster, squirrel those millions away, got an 11 second gift, as well as several places, by the chaos in the first lap and put Dani behind Lewis from the shunt he got.

 

The Pirelli "tyre-by-lap" looks like Max's first stint on the used Supers was too long and the second stint too short.  Yes they use predictive software but I don't think it factors in Max's abilities advantage enough.  Should have taken the initiative and gone first no later than 25 IMO or even 23 ie third race distance and as one is carrying that fuel load with the 80 kgs or so.

 

Toto, the Merc boss not the dog in The Wizard of Oz, I heard say they would get 4th with a safety car or 6/7 th without one. they got the safety car like manna from heaven super early on to maximise it benefit and Riki Bobby needed to pit to check for damage from the shunt. 

Verstappen the Belgium Monaco living tax dodger changed tyres on lap 28, two other drivers changed theirs on lap 27. The fact is that the Mercedes and Ferrari's were quicker than the Red Bulls all weekend and Verstappen was on the radio moaning about the tyres a few times, plus the Renault engines were turned down to stopping them self destructing.

[camelspyyder]

The personal attacks on drivers don't contribute much to the thread here do they?

 

The IOM or Monaco tax laws don't make either of them a criminal to be vilified, The IOM set up its Aircraft Registry separate from GB specifically to encourage wealthy owners to register their aircraft there. Guernsey and Jersey have followed suit, with rather less success.

 

 

 

...and back on track:

If the safety car had been at around lap 18 - 20 then every one would have 2-stopped, and Hamilton would have joined the lead group and been set up for a win. The lap 1 safety car was not so effective for him.

 

 

Edited 15 November, 2017 by camelspyyder

[lol-lol]

15 hours ago, camelspyyder said:

The personal attacks on drivers don't contribute much to the thread here do they?

 

The IOM or Monaco tax laws don't make either of them a criminal to be vilified, The IOM set up its Aircraft Registry separate from GB specifically to encourage wealthy owners to register their aircraft there. Guernsey and Jersey have followed suit, with rather less success.

 

...and back on track:

If the safety car had been at around lap 18 - 20 then every one would have 2-stopped, and Hamilton would have joined the lead group and been set up for a win. The lap 1 safety car was not so effective for him.

 

 

 

It is an interesting backdrop to where the F1 drivers live and how some choose to be close the factories to help development and some choose to live in their country of birth and make a positive choice to pay their taxes of their nationality.   Alonso choose to do his bit to help Spain through its financial difficulties  and as one of the highest paid ($35M pa) that was a nice windfall for Spain.  Alonso seems himself as a working class bloke rather than super star like some.

If the percentage of the population that has a proper crack at racing is less than 1% then probably the people we see as the best are probably nowhere near the people who could actually be the best just ones who are in the rare breed to get a crack at.  Who know how many, and even better Jann Mardenborough they might be out there.

On the track I would just have liked to see Red Bull team take the initiative and pit first, be brave on the strategy and use the undertake more IMO.

 

https://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/360940/verstappen-wanted-to-pit-for-fastest-lap/

 

13 November 2017 – Max Verstappen says he pitted for a second time late in the Brazilian Grand Prix to push for the fastest lap, with his track position secure.
Verstappen had a lonely race at Interlagos, holding fourth, behind leaders Sebastian Vettel, Valtteri Bottas and Kimi Räikkönen, for the majority of proceedings.  As his tyres dropped off, he was caught and passed by the recovering Lewis Hamilton, and likened his situation to driving on "rocks".  With a sizeable gap back to Red Bull team-mate Daniel Ricciardo, who was involved in a first-lap clash, Verstappen requested to pit for fresh Super Softs.  He duly lit up the timesheets, clocking a 1:11.044 on lap 64/71, some eight-tenths quicker than the next best time, posted by Hamilton.  Reflecting on his fifth-place finish, Verstappen said: "In general this is not a track that suits our car and together with the power deficit on the straights it is very hard for us. "You then try and catch up on the corners, but you ask too much of the tyres and get more drop-off.  "Of course, I hoped for more in the race, but it was a difficult situation, but I think we maximised the result and that was fifth.  "I didn't want to drive the last 10 or 15 laps with difficult tyres and at the end of the day I wasn't going to lose a position, so we decided to make a second pit-stop.  "From there on the race was gone, but I pushed for the fastest lap, I didn't get it in Mexico, so I'm really pleased to take it here."