Gearbox compatibility for 1.2 BME engine

[JWvrs25]

I think i am going to need to change my gearbox soon and have been looking on ebay where there seem to be a few for around £100 but none which specifically match my existing GB code which is JJL

will any of the 1.2 gearboxes fit or do i need the same one as my current gearbox

I am aware the replacement is fairly straightforward just time consuming which is fine, some people say you need to remove the subframe and others dont so im not entirely sure with this

Anyone who has done a 5 speed fabia gearbox i would appreciate any help/advice

 

[garethw]

I have done it on 1.9Sdi the key thing was to remove the output flanges from the gearbox and take off the drop links so you could Flip the anti-roll bar out of the way. ( As advised by R Baldwin ).

It is very tight and you need to be strong enough and perhaps have a helper to get past the critical bit.

You may have more scope on the smaller engine to loosen engine mounts and move the engine to make more space.

Replace the bolts on the gearbox mount as a matter of course.

See WINOs post on how he did his petrol 1.4.

[JWvrs25]

Thanks for the reply, I thought i might have to remove the n/s wishbone and subframe but maybe thats on the VRS where things are a bit tighter and heavier

I will be doing it on axle stands on the driveway so it will probably be very awkward but will get my dad to help me to get it out and back on

I thought i would have had to replace gb-engine bolts, starter motor bolts and drive shaft bolts as well

I'd like to be able to get everything i need including a new clutch so it can all be done within a few days as i cannot have the car off the road for more than that

Dont even know if the current gearbox can be easily fixed as its a selector problem on 1st gear but cant wait for it to be recon'd so am going to try and just replace it if i can find one

[Breezy_Pete]

I think any 02T will fit, and any from a 1.2/12v should be similar ratios I'd imagine.  GSB is the nearest earlier code, and JUS the next later one. JUS has the same ratios throughout, GSB is slightly different on 1st and 2nd gear.

 

I followed Haynes instructions pretty closely, plus a bit of extra stuff from erWin, not sure if either was the simplest way, but they didn't contradict each other much as far as I remember.  Subframe stayed where it was, nearside hub/bearing carrier disconnected from wishbone and droplink unbolted from strut so it can all swing well out of the way with the N/S driveshaft.

 

Engine supported/lowered/raised from above with a beam across the wings, gearbox supported/lowered/raised separately from same beam. There's no obvious centre-of-gravity point to hang the gearbox by, so I was forever adjusting various bits of rope to change its angle as I wriggled it off/out/in/on.  I took it very slowly and steadily as I was a gearbox virgin.  Took flipping ages, almost completely on my own. Missus helped at a critical stage (and was essential at that point, IMO) getting the box back on, you need eyeballs looking at the top and bottom at the same time to get it squared up enough to mate input shaft of the box and clutch friction disk.

 

It would be quite easy to damage stuff (including yourself) if you were in a hurry, or didn't have good control of the height and angle of the heavy bits.

 

Starter motor bolts nor gearbox-engine bolts were items I replaced (wasn't suggested anywhere I saw?)

 

Some of them were effin tight though, lower starter bolt and least accessible gearbox-engine bolt (above O/S driveshaft) were worst on the missus's car. Thought both might strip/snap with the forces involved (no air/leccy impact tools, just long bars).

 

I reckon you should investigate a little further whether the selector stuff can be repaired with gearbox in place, I don't know; but a decent independent should give you an answer easily. If it can't, while you're there, I would get a couple of quotes from professionals if I were you for the gearbox/clutch job. It probably is straightforward with all the right gear on ramps, but it ain't when you're on the drive with improvised stuff, at this time of year. 

 

Sorry I can't be more encouraging, but I wouldn't want to make it sound easier than I found it, just to be an internet hero.

 

 

 

Edited 12 February, 2017 by Wino

[JWvrs25]

35 minutes ago, Wino said:

I think any 02T will fit, and any from a 1.2/12v should be similar ratios I'd imagine.  GSB is the nearest earlier code, and JUS the next later one. JUS has the same ratios throughout, GSB is slightly different on 1st and 2nd gear.

 

I followed Haynes instructions pretty closely, plus a bit of extra stuff from erWin, not sure if either was the simplest way, but they didn't contradict each other much as far as I remember.  Subframe stayed where it was, nearside hub/bearing carrier disconnected from wishbone and droplink unbolted from strut so it can all swing well out of the way with the N/S driveshaft.

 

Engine supported/lowered/raised from above with a beam across the wings, gearbox supported/lowered/raised separately from same beam. There's no obvious centre-of-gravity point to hang the gearbox by, so I was forever adjusting various bits of rope to change its angle as I wriggled it off/out/in/on.  I took it very slowly and steadily as I was a gearbox virgin.  Took flipping ages, almost completely on my own. Missus helped at a critical stage (and was essential at that point, IMO) getting the box back on, you need eyeballs looking at the top and bottom at the same time to get it squared up enough to mate input shaft of the box and clutch friction disk.

 

It would be quite easy to damage stuff (including yourself) if you were in a hurry, or didn't have good control of the height and angle of the heavy bits.

 

Starter motor bolts nor gearbox-engine bolts were items I replaced (wasn't suggested anywhere I saw?)

 

Some of them were effin tight though, lower starter bolt and least accessible gearbox-engine bolt (above O/S driveshaft) were worst on the missus's car. Thought both might strip/snap with the forces involved (no air/leccy impact tools, just long bars).

 

I reckon you should investigate a little further whether the selector stuff can be repaired with gearbox in place, I don't know; but a decent independent should give you an answer easily. If it can't, while you're there, I would get a couple of quotes from professionals if I were you for the gearbox/clutch job. It probably is straightforward with all the right gear on ramps, but it ain't when you're on the drive with improvised stuff, at this time of year. 

 

Sorry I can't be more encouraging, but I wouldn't want to make it sound easier than I found it, just to be an internet hero.

 

 

 

Thats really helpful to know, thank you

 

I have managed to find a gearbox from a 6v engine of the same year which has slightly different ratios on 1st and 2nd but the rest are the same.

I dont have the money to spend on getting it done so i have to do it myself which doesnt concern me too much as i will have my dad to assist with lifting and positioning, and I am fairly competent with mechanics

My current gearbox also has noisy bearings on 1st gear so i think its easier to just replace the whole box for the price ive seen a low milleage one for

My clutch seems ok as it is but obviously going to change it anyway as its on 103,000 miles and original as far as i know

Am hoping to either buy or construct a beam to support the engine whilst the mounts are undone, was hoping to just drop the box using a trolley jack underneath.

A couple of questions,

Where did you support the engine from, and did you remove the drivers side engine mount?

How much did the new bolts cost (im assuming it was the dealer)?

how many bolts hold the gearbox to the engine?

 

I am not in a rush to get it done as the current box should hold up for a few more months, just want to get everything ready for when i decide to do it.

 

 

 

[Breezy_Pete]

Engine head has lifting brackets, one each end. Use the one at gearbox end, driver's side engine mount stays.

 

Gearbox mount bolts were around £3 for the pair. Driveshaft bolts were expensive cos you need 12, I got the lot for £22.

Wishbone ball joint bolts under a quid each. GB oil £11.62 for 2ltr. All plus VAT and all genuine, via Mike Hindle - [email protected]

 

I think it may be 6 bolts that hold GB to engine? M12 top, M12 above O/S driveshaft. Starter motor bolts then a couple of M10s at the bottom. May have forgotten one or two, but as I said, I didn't replace any of those.

 

You are supposed to replace the 3 bolts that hold the dogbone, but I didn't as I knew the one that fixes it to the subframe  was only about 3 years old. At gearbox end they're into blind holes so no rusting issues.

 

Happy to lend you my clutch alignment tool, if you want?

 

 

 

[JWvrs25]

22 minutes ago, Wino said:

Engine head has lifting brackets, one each end. Use the one at gearbox end, driver's side engine mount stays.

 

Gearbox mount bolts were around £3 for the pair. Driveshaft bolts were expensive cos you need 12, I got the lot for £22.

Wishbone ball joint bolts under a quid each. GB oil £11.62 for 2ltr. All plus VAT and all genuine, via Mike Hindle - parts@briskoda.net

 

I think it may be 6 bolts that hold GB to engine? M12 top, M12 above O/S driveshaft. Starter motor bolts then a couple of M10s at the bottom. May have forgotten one or two, but as I said, I didn't replace any of those.

 

You are supposed to replace the 3 bolts that hold the dogbone, but I didn't as I knew the one that fixes it to the subframe  was only about 3 years old. At gearbox end they're into blind holes so no rusting issues.

 

Happy to lend you my clutch alignment tool, if you want?

 

 

 

Thanks very much that useful information to know

I have already spent £75 on my current gearbox trying to solve the problems its having so Im fed up and just want to replace it now!!

I will contact mike and see about all the bolts I need

That's very kind of you to offer the tool but I have a friend with one which i can borrow so it shouldnt be an issue.

Ive seen a valeo clutch on ECP for £70 with discount but not sure if the LUK one would be better? TBH im not planning on keeping the car more than another 18 months so any clutch should do me ok.

 

[Breezy_Pete]

Clutchwise then, I wouldn't spend any money until you've looked at the friction disc of the one that's on the car. How many miles on the clock? Ours lasted 146k, so if yours has done significantly less you probably don't need to replace if you're not hanging onto the car long.  I got lucky and found NOS genuine pressure plate/friction disc/bearing for under £100 total on ebay.  Sachs made.

Edited 12 February, 2017 by Wino

[JWvrs25]

In which case i may just get one from my local ECP so its ready if I need it, if not i can just return it and use the old clutch

[JWvrs25]

Managed to pick up a gearbox today and it seems a good one. All gears engage ok and feels smooth to turn over. Gearbox oil looks like new so i think it should be a good replacement.

Anyway, I wanted to ask if you knew the part numbers of the gearbox mount bolts. I understand there are 4 bolts total but cannot find part numbers anywhere

From looking at the workshop manuals online, I think i need to replace the following bolts when i change the box

gearbox/engine mount bolts x4

dogbone mount bolts x3

starter motor bolts x2

control arm ball joint bolts x3 (&retaining plate)

 

There is no mention of the driveshaft bolts on the list of bolts to be changed so i take it they can be reused (which would be nice to save £20)

 

If you know where to find those part numbers for the mount bolts i would really appreciate it

 

[Breezy_Pete]

Will look up later for you.

I didn't see starter motor bolts as needing replacement anywhere I looked, but saw driveshaft bolts as 'replace' everywhere I looked. 

 

Old driveshaft bolts measured longer than new ones IIRC, suggesting that they really are stretch bolts. Again, will check later.

[Breezy_Pete]

This page shows the mount bolts (for a 2006 car like yours), I bought two of the item 10A which are the downward-pointing bolts that hold the gearbox mount to the gearbox mount bracket, and two of the item 12, gearbox mount bracket to gearbox bolts. This was erWin's suggestion, I'm not 100% sure how much it helped to remove the gearbox mount bracket, but they must have some reason for suggesting it.  By the way, I couldn't find a torque setting for the item 12 bolts anywhere. References to it in erWin info just go round in circles or to other, different bolts as far as I found.

Apparently the 10A part number has changed from what it says on that page to WHT001835, though they looked identical to what I took out.  the item 12 - N 10703701 one was still current.

 

Items 23 (qty 1) and 24 (qty 2) for dogbone mounting.  

 

Balljoint bolts and retaining plate are items 3 & 2 here. N 10127707 & 6N0407175A

 

Driveshaft bolts: I bought qty 12 - N 91108201; M8 x 48 - first item 13 here (M8 spline type, long-shafted bit handy for getting past the inner CV without damaging it). Torque setting varies from reference to reference quite a bit. I took erWin's word for 20Nm plus 180 degrees further, but it seemed scary TBH on little M8s. Can't find the document where I wrote down old-versus-new bolt lengths just now.  If it had've been my car I maybe would have chanced non-replacement, but the missus travels far and wide with work so no expense spared.

 

Starter motor bolts item 2 here, I guess.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 14 February, 2017 by Wino

[JWvrs25]

Thank you so much, that website is one to save to the favourites i think!

 

180 degrees on those driveshaft bolts  then yes i will definitely replace them! 

The replacement box ive got has been left outside for a while by the looks of how rusty the clutch release lever is - just surface rust but looks terrible.

Did you use your original release lever? I cant see it being a wear item really so hoping to just swap my existing one when i take the box off.

Really appreciate your help Wino 

 

[Breezy_Pete]

No probs, the knock-off-ETKA parts websites come and go,  there always seems to be one or two that are close to up-to-date. Googling ETKA finds a selection.

 

When I was umming and ahhing about the release lever, I found that they're pretty good value at GSF, I think around £20 (after discounts) including bearing and sleeve. I think I put the part number in my clutch thread, and they almost always have a discount of about 50%, sending codes out incessantly by email.  I didn't buy one 'cos I already had the bearing (and sleeve) and I couldn't imagine the plastic parts that bear on the two ends of the metal pressing could wear through the metal much. Inspection suggested I was right.  I did treat it to a new pivot bolt, at the non-slave-cylinder end which was part number 02A141777B £4.48 plus VAT from Mike.  Old one didn't look particularly worn TBH, but I didn't think I'd find that bit in a hurry, locally, if I did need it.

 

Any idea of the mileage your replacement box has done? Which code did you end up getting? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 14 February, 2017 by Wino

[JWvrs25]

The replacement box is a code HZM which is from the 6 valve 3 pot engine but the exact same age as my current box. Only difference between my original and this one is that 5th gear is a slightly higher ratio, but maybe that will bring better economy

Apparently its only done 68k from an 06 polo and after removing the end cover to have a look, oil was like new golden yellow, and the syncro I could see on 5th gear had no obvious wear. 

Also selects all gears really smoothly from what i can tell, which is completely different to how my current one shifts!

I'm hoping it will be a decent box and not end up causing more problems

 

As for the release lever, ill just swap the one in my current box, and the pivot bolt looks absolutely fine anyway still got the orange coating on it.

 

Have been having a quick look in haynes manual, which states 'Engine mounting to transmission' 40NM + 90 degrees so i'm not sure whether thats for the dogbone mount or the main one.

I did email Mike but it says he is away at the moment so might try my local dealer to get some prices for all those bolts i need.

 

[JWvrs25]

Managed to pick up the bolts i ordered from my local dealer, however I ordered the wrong dowel sleeve which sits between the gearbox and engine. It was the only one i could find a part number for online but is actually for a 02M gearbox. 

The replacement box has one dowel missing hence why i ordered the replacement, I'm wondering how easy they are to remove as i will just take one off the old gearbox when ive got it off.

 

[Breezy_Pete]

My recollection is that both dowels stayed in the block when the box came away? If that's right then they must be easy to remove from the box.

[JWvrs25]

Hmm strange because the one left in the new gearbox is stuck solid

Maybe some wd40 and a tap with a hammer and it might free up.

 

[Breezy_Pete]

To be fair, my recollection could be the opposite of how it really happened. Sadly, the few photos I took were killed by the SD card in my phone deciding to commit suicide a few days after the job was finished.

[JWvrs25]

Still getting everything ready to do the job

Made an engine support beam, used the picture of yours Wino to give me the idea

Cost me nothing as the wood was all stuff i already had, and I found some threaded rods with some sort of loop welded on the end (no idea where it came from, think it was some kind of exhaust bracket)

Seems really strong and even managed to lift the engine & gearbox a few mm with the mounts still attached as a test.

[JWvrs25]

Just checking the Haynes manual to get all the torque specs witten down,

and I came across the specs page which says clutch diameter 200mm on the 02T box, my valeo clutch from euros has a diameter of 190mm

What is the correct size? 

Thanks

 

[Breezy_Pete]

Don't panic, 190mm is right for your car: http://www.realoem.me/Skoda/CZ/FAB/2006/453/R/1/141/141010

At a guess, 200mm is the largest that'll fit within the bell-housing.

[JWvrs25]

Phew, thanks for that

Not sure why haynes states its a 200mm but oh well

The pressure plate is 200mm so maybe thats what it meant

[JWvrs25]

Removed the gearbox this afternoon, surprised me how simple most of it was actually. Only had trouble with 1 of the ball joint bolts which had to be cut off. 

Most of the bolts were quite 'awkward' but with enough extensions and adapters for 3/8 and 1/2 it was fairly straightforward.

The most difficult bit by far was getting the gearbox out, took me and an assistant pulling on it and trying to pull the engine forward to allow the drive flanges to slide out from between the subframe.

Going to try and re fit on saturday if the weather is not too bad. 

I was right in thinking it was the original clutch, haven't actually removed the pressure plate and clutch yet but the release bearing had 2006 on it and was very worn out. There is a nice groove in the diaphragm fingers where the bearing sits, and the bearing is completely worn out feels bone dry and if you spin it, it rotates for ages and sounds rough.

Release arm wasn't much better where it pivots the ball pin, seems quite worn out where the head of the pin has contacted it.

 

Haven't started dismantling the old gearbox yet  but there is noticeably more backlash than the replacement gearbox and the input shaft has quite a bit of up and down movement which the new box doesn't.

 

I think I'm going to adjust the engine beam so it sits further forward to allow a bit more room when re fitting the gearbox, I've removed the exhaust front pipe so there's loads of room for the engine to move forward.

 

[Breezy_Pete]

Nice going man.

I agree on the wriggling the box out bit being the trickiest stage. Pretty sure you'll find it easier on the way back in, 'cos you know what to expect, and what it all looks like. Fingers crossed that the weather co-operates for you on Saturday.

 

By the way, good idea taking the arch liner out for better access and visibility, not sure if I did that or not, can't remember now!  

Clean out the standard giant clomp of wet mud at the rear where it meets the front of the sill, must be a rust-starting liability the way it collects there behind the liner/mudflap.

Edited 2 March, 2017 by Wino