Attached is a video of our Skoda Fabia estate, 1.2 TSI Monte Carlo which we bought in January. We experience a whirring and juddering in first and reverse when the vehicle is cold. Having gone back to Skoda on numerous occasions, their response is (quoted directly from the email we received):

"After investigation and identifying the issue, we referred our findings to Skoda Technical. As this was not an issue that had been reported to them before they had to escalate our findings to Skoda Factory.
The issue seems to occur when increasing the revs to 1400/1500rpm to find the clutch point on a slope, the engine revs then increase by a further 200 rpm and a judder/knocking occurs.
We were asked to try similar vehicles which we did and found we could reproduce the issue in the same conditions.
Skoda have concluded that the customer may need to adapt their driving style, as to not increase the engine revs, as the engine is set up to increase by 200 rpm when the clutch is lifted. They have stated that as we can get other vehicles to replicate the judder/knock in these conditions, this is a characteristic of the build standard and is not a recognised as a fault."

We have now had two further responses from them basically telling us we need to adapt our driving which is ridiculous!

I would be really interested to know if anyone else with a 2017 (66 plate or 17 plate) Skoda Fabia 1.2 are experiencing the same issue?

I completely disagree with Skoda's response, I don't believe it is a 'characteristic' and I am not happy, so please pop me a message if you have the same issue with your Fabia. Appreciate any help with this 

FaultVideo3.mp4

O, if it can be replicated it's a characteristic, not a fault. Do some faults not affect whole batches, or even whole model runs? 

 

Wonder what Toyota etc would think about this approach?  If it was a true characteristic, surely they would already be aware of it from their extensive testing and have no need to 'investigate' it? 

 

Interesting.

Welcome Chess, great to have you onboard. I have the DSG 7 speed auto 110ps engine in mine and she is sweet on move off.  However I've driven the manual versions and those also were sweet. But, I did notice if you use too many revs, around 1400/1500 rpm (that's maximum torque by the way) you do get the symptoms you speak of.  This is entirely due to too much power being used and the clutch taking up the drive with a little protest. Remember that with so much torque at such low revs, one does need to refine the moving off technique. Ideally use less revs. They move off beautifuly at 1000rpm and accelerate fast without any drama, no judder or knocking. Even in our DSG auto the transmission will object in a similar way if too much power is used on move off. It's not a fault,  but different to a non-turbo engine though where there is nowhere near the same sort of high power at such low revs. 

 

 

At least the Fabia 110ps should have the available power that the FIAT 500 lacked,

but then like FIAT SKODA Customer Services & others Manufacturers or representatives are known to blame drivers for not driving as the engineers intended.

 

2 hours ago, Estate Man said:

But, I did notice if you use too many revs, around 1400/1500 rpm (that's maximum torque by the way) you do get the symptoms you speak of.

 

The engine can develop maximum torque at 1400 rpm (as measured in a lab from the flywheel side, with a dummy load applied such that the engine can turn no faster) but it won't be putting peak torque through the clutch during the uptake. Otherwise things would start spinning up and moving off very rapidly.

 

Assuming VAG have built the system properly, the clutch should be able to take all 175Nm when fully engaged without slipping.

 

This could in fact be some sort of resonance. I believe 'clutch judder' tends to be felt through the clutch pedal.

 

I've found with this car it's better to judge the clutch bite for pull-away by observing more how it responds and starts to move than any vibration or tactile feedback through the foot, since there doesn't seem to be much of the latter.

 

I would've preferred it had they designed the accelerator pedal with a stronger spring and without the no-op region at the top of the travel, making it very sensitive when the revs do start to build up. I have to do things like turn my foot along its axis for fine control, which isn't completely ergonomic. The 200rpm boost as the clutch comes up while stationary is an annoying quirk that I could also do without: it feels like the car has a mind of its own and is trying to tell me how to drive. (I suspect it's an attempt to engineer around lacklustre driving standards in foreign markets.) I like my controls direct and predictable.

Edited 3 May, 20179 yr by ettlz

That's right ettiz, maximum torque is available at 1400rpm, but only with the right throttle setting. However, using that level of engine revs to move off is neither required or desirable for normal move offs if one is not controlling gas & clutch with the finesse needed for an event free take off. Of course the clutch can carry the power no problem if used correctly but it's easy to cause the drive wheels to lose traction at move off with those kind of revs and of course that causes judder. I'm just saying that unlike a normally aspirated engine which simply doesn't have so much power available at those revs, greater effort and finesse is needed until moving off becomes 'second nature' in this type of car. I've generally found individuals with move off issues such as the OP nearly always need to adapt further to their cars. None of this is meant to sound patronising to the OP,  it's just how it seems to be.

 

7 hours ago, Estate Man said:

That's right ettiz, maximum torque is available at 1400rpm, but only with the right throttle setting. However, using that level of engine revs to move off is neither required or desirable for normal move offs if one is not controlling gas & clutch with the finesse needed for an event free take off. Of course the clutch can carry the power no problem if used correctly but it's easy to cause the drive wheels to lose traction at move off with those kind of revs and of course that causes judder. I'm just saying that unlike a normally aspirated engine which simply doesn't have so much power available at those revs, greater effort and finesse is needed until moving off becomes 'second nature' in this type of car. I've generally found individuals with move off issues such as the OP nearly always need to adapt further to their cars. None of this is meant to sound patronising to the OP,  it's just how it seems to be.

 

 

I don't think whether or not the power is ultimately available is mechanically relevant. The amount of torque going through the clutch is that required to accelerate (or otherwise overcome the external forces acting on) the car plus deal with any drivetrain losses, regardless of revs, and the OP hasn't reported launching it or losing traction. The difference between 1200rpm and 1400rpm (while it will cause a proportionate increase in heating) should not be significant to this.

 

The trouble with the Fabia throttle is that it seems to require a lot of finesse to keep it steady between 900rpm and 1600rpm because of pedal sensitivity (the softness of the return spring doesn't help), and the clutch-triggered rev boost (which happens before the biting point, so it's not anti-stall). As to the latter: Skoda seem to have admitted to the OP that this is a deliberate design choice, but haven't explained why they did it or why it's desirable. It should at least be mentioned in the manual.

Edited 4 May, 20179 yr by ettlz

Whilst it is sensitive, the Fabia throttle is no different to other makes of modern turbo cars. There is nothing wrong with it, it just requires getting used to. I remember you too had a problem with your moving off technique, which I've no doubt you have mastered now as you haven't mentioned it for ages. When the clutch is being raised the 'anti-stall' comes into play, increasing the engine revs. It is mentioned in the manual. But anti-stall is common to most makes of car these days and is normal. My DSG has it too. Even many motorcycles use it as well. It's the way everything is going and for lots of reasons, including emissions. I would add, that to get the noise and judder the OP is complaining of, you have to go some with the throttle and clutch to get it to make that noise and judder. at 14/1500rpm, any disgression with the controls will be amplified to an undesiravle level. Not normal driving in my book. Not quite sure what your point is talking about drivetrain loss, heating, external forces acting on etc. Has no relevance in this context. We are most likely talking about an owner who simply hasn't developed his moving off technique to a satisfactory level yet. That's all. All cars will make strange noises if you move off without the finesse required. 

Edited 4 May, 20179 yr by Estate Man

While my car is a manual, I would agree that the accelerator takes a little bit of getting used to, especially if you've come from a naturally aspirated car. There's a rather quick increase in available torque as the revs climb from 1k to the peak, and it does seem to all come on at once, and once the turbo gets going it can pile on the power really rather rapidly. This is inevitable with turbo engines- the torque curve is dead until the moment where the turbo gets up enough speed, at which point it's off. 

Could be engine or gearbox mount. Just had one replaced because of clonking noises and excess vibration.

My Octavia 1.2 110 does the same, if you dont get the clutch and revs just right when you pull away. Mostly from cold.

 

Doesnt happen loads, but when it does its quite noticeable, if you hold the clutch midway, it stops. I suppose this is  'slipping' the clutch, which isnt good for wear...

@Estate Man I completely agree about getting used to the clutch.

 

i bought my fabia Monte Estate tsi 90 6 months ago.

 

Attention to detail on the clutch and 1400 rpm when pulling off stops the juddering, now I'm a pro.

 

Having said this, I got mine serviced last week at 14000 miles, juddering completely gone at any rpm, so I'm a bit baffled to what they did to it. I don't really care because it drives like a beauty.

 

As for cold starts, well it's cold so it's going to be lumpy as the oil makes it into and around the cylinders, slight tapping noise, throaty air box, the settle down to quiet but a little bumpy. Mine does this sometimes. Other times it's so quiet, I forget the engine is even on!

On ‎5‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 08:24, vc-10 said:

While my car is a manual, I would agree that the accelerator takes a little bit of getting used to, especially if you've come from a naturally aspirated car. There's a rather quick increase in available torque as the revs climb from 1k to the peak, and it does seem to all come on at once, and once the turbo gets going it can pile on the power really rather rapidly. This is inevitable with turbo engines- the torque curve is dead until the moment where the turbo gets up enough speed, at which point it's off. 

 

Yep - good ol' "turbo lag". The Fabia certainly seems to have more of it than a lot of other modern small-engine turbo cars. That said, I've found it's fine, once you get used to it.

Haven't checked in here for ages but I too find it tricky moving off/driving round town with the TSI 110. Never had this issue with the old chain-driven 1.2TSI, in fact you could drive that on the clutch with no throttle at all quite easily.

 

However, I had a 17 plate Rapid 110 as a courtesy car the other day and it was much better (although not perfect) so I guess they have made some changes since mine was built. I'm hoping it's software and that they will be able to update mine when it's in for it's service shortly.

On 04/05/2017 at 09:15, Estate Man said:

Whilst it is sensitive, the Fabia throttle is no different to other makes of modern turbo cars. There is nothing wrong with it, it just requires getting used to. I remember you too had a problem with your moving off technique, which I've no doubt you have mastered now as you haven't mentioned it for ages. When the clutch is being raised the 'anti-stall' comes into play, increasing the engine revs. It is mentioned in the manual. But anti-stall is common to most makes of car these days and is normal. My DSG has it too. Even many motorcycles use it as well. It's the way everything is going and for lots of reasons, including emissions. I would add, that to get the noise and judder the OP is complaining of, you have to go some with the throttle and clutch to get it to make that noise and judder. at 14/1500rpm, any disgression with the controls will be amplified to an undesiravle level. Not normal driving in my book. Not quite sure what your point is talking about drivetrain loss, heating, external forces acting on etc. Has no relevance in this context. We are most likely talking about an owner who simply hasn't developed his moving off technique to a satisfactory level yet. That's all. All cars will make strange noises if you move off without the finesse required. 

 

Would this explain why my Octavia SE 1.6TDi 110ps with the clutch is fully depressed the tick over is 750 rpm but as soon as it is raised slightly the revs automatically rise to 1000rpm? That is normal and a part of the anti-stall process? Takes some getting used too. Even after 6 months. 

5 hours ago, threadbear said:

 

Would this explain why my Octavia SE 1.6TDi 110ps with the clutch is fully depressed the tick over is 750 rpm but as soon as it is raised slightly the revs automatically rise to 1000rpm? That is normal and a part of the anti-stall process? Takes some getting used too. Even after 6 months. 

 

It can't be anti-stall because it happens before the biting point, only when stationary, and even when the gas pedal is slightly depressed -- i.e. when the engine is nowhere near stalling. On the other hand it doesn't happen on mine if the engine has started with a high idle.

 

I suspect this is some sort of 'moron amelioration device' programmed into the ECU, of the sort which becomes a confusing and unhelpful anti-feature for the rest of us who were taught how to drive a manual properly.

 

(I did wonder if it could be some sort of 'emissions test satisfaction device' but couldn't figure out how this would work.)

Edited 9 October, 20178 yr by ettlz

On 09/10/2017 at 09:27, threadbear said:

 

Would this explain why my Octavia SE 1.6TDi 110ps with the clutch is fully depressed the tick over is 750 rpm but as soon as it is raised slightly the revs automatically rise to 1000rpm? That is normal and a part of the anti-stall process? Takes some getting used too. Even after 6 months. 

 

Yes, it's part of the anti stall/driver assist process.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread. Reading this reminds me that I have exactly the same issue with our 1.2tsi 90 fab. Was told it was normal and I needed to adapt. Well, I've tried and almost got it after 2 years. Slow moving traffic is still a bunny hop magnet though. Anyway, we were looking at changing to a Karoq, and found this thread. 

 

 

Same issue methinks! 

Edited 26 November, 20187 yr by fzrkev
Spelling!

Oh great!  One of my wife's friends got her old Golf TDI stolen a year or so ago along with her husband's Audi A6, to quickly get them back on the road, her friend chose an almost new Citroen C2 in purple! After about a year she has finally given up on that car as it does not make her feel confident in all road conditions, so it is getting chopped in against a used Golf 1.5TSI - so no doubt late this week or next my wife will start getting some sad tales, unless this lady can master that car - though, maybe she will consider anything is better that a C2?

 

As her husband comes from an area of the country where the ratio of arms length to pocket depth is considered safe from a spending point of view, I can't help thinking that the price tag on that small Citroen was the prime driver on that purchase!

Sorry to hear of your issue, but this sounds like the same issue I had with a 2014 Audi A3 with the 1.4 COD engine.. normally when pulling away up my drive (slope) from a cold start I would sometimes get a rumble/judder feeling... was nothing to do with revs or clutch input. It never got fixed and I had the same ridiculous excuse that it’s just ‘charactistic’ which is just laughable.

 

My 1.2TSI 90bhp manual does not rumble/judder at all.

On 26/11/2018 at 11:56, rum4mo said:

Oh great!  One of my wife's friends got her old Golf TDI stolen a year or so ago along with her husband's Audi A6, to quickly get them back on the road, her friend chose an almost new Citroen C2 in purple! After about a year she has finally given up on that car as it does not make her feel confident in all road conditions, so it is getting chopped in against a used Golf 1.5TSI - so no doubt late this week or next my wife will start getting some sad tales, unless this lady can master that car - though, maybe she will consider anything is better that a C2?

 

As her husband comes from an area of the country where the ratio of arms length to pocket depth is considered safe from a spending point of view, I can't help thinking that the price tag on that small Citroen was the prime driver on that purchase!

 

We are on our 3rd TSi now. Ist was a Leon 1.4 140 PS which was replaced by the Superb 150 PS. Now the Wife has got a Fabia 1.0 TSi 110 PS. Its 5 1/2 years since we bought the Leon and in all that time with no special technique we have had none of the issues described above in any of the cars. Nothing to master, just driven normally.

 

Me thinks the dealers/Skoda are talking total bull dung.

 

 

Well it seems that the 6 month old Golf 1.5TSI with a manual gearbox has come up to their expectation with none of the reported issues that have been reported with the 1.5TSI which will get addressed in the second quarter of 2019 - but at least they now know that it might feel sluggish at low revs - though maybe only after VW has applied the fix when it gets serviced, or maybe VW will ignore applying that fix unless the owner reports it.

I have found that if you use the engine rev rise to your advantage then all is good.

When starting off don't use the throttle at all.

Just use your clutch skills and only apply the throttle after you have brought the clutch all the way up.

It can require some practice at first.

 

Thanks AG Falco

With my wife's 2015 1.2TSI 110PS 6SPD Polo, I've found that a lot of the time I can't understand what is annoying people about this version of Polo/Ibiza/Fabia, and then "car + me" start to go through a bad patch, and I'd bin it quite easily if there was a better all round small car out there - and then normal service returns and we get back working "as one" - wife never ever reports getting annoyed with it though.

 

So there is a common complaint across the Polo/Ibiza/Fabia motoring forums.

Edited 8 December, 20187 yr by rum4mo

Part of the problem is there's very little feel to the pedals because they're softly sprung, so it can be hard to judge them by foot pressure alone. Add to that, the clutch engages hard over a short region of the pedal's travel that's hard to identify consistently due to the lack of feel. I suspect the 'off' days are due to changes in footwear throwing out how the brain judges pedal position.

 

I've found the best approach is to listen to the engine note, and modulate the clutch according to vehicle response (not worrying too much about what the rev dial is doing).