Major fire in London Tower Block

[gadgetman]

I can see also some squeaky bums at the various firms who made the decision on the panels, installed them or downgraded them from the original design spec. 

[KenONeill]

@lol-lol - Thanks for that; I had a suspicion, but didn't know for sure about the built-in panel "chimney" (...50mm void...).

 

I still think that lives (but not the building) could have been saved with some rescue Brontos in the early response instead of a single remote monitor unit hours later.

[gadgetman]

7 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

@lol-lol - Thanks for that; I had a suspicion, but didn't know for sure about the built-in panel "chimney" (...50mm void...).

 

I still think that lives (but not the building) could have been saved with some rescue Brontos in the early response instead of a single remote monitor unit hours later.

From reports this week the whole building was ablaze in under 12 minutes with the first appliances there under 6.

 

No idea where in the capital all the Brontos are stationed, but assuming the majority at least 20 minutes away perhaps the decision was made that deployment was futile given how quickly the tower went up? 

 

I'm sure we'll find out for certain once any enquiry takes place with either LFB being found to have made errors or correct judgement given events. 

 

I'm guessing this will take several years before we know either way 

[lol-lol]

10 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

@lol-lol - Thanks for that; I had a suspicion, but didn't know for sure about the built-in panel "chimney" (...50mm void...).

I still think that lives (but not the building) could have been saved with some rescue Brontos in the early response instead of a single remote monitor unit hours later.

 

It is not only the lack of enough of the right equipment but that each truck had reducing manning level and when the trucks got there they had a choice of fighting the fire or getting the people out and they of course chose getting the people out but that meant the fire continued to grow and more lives were lost.

 

 

 

 

[lol-lol]

 

For those not in the London area an article for the normal neutral London Metro Free paper many read on the Tube.....

 

http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/16/government-ministers-congratulated-themselves-for-cutting-fire-regulations-6713967/

 

Government ministers ‘congratulated themselves’ for cutting fire regulations

     Charles White for Metro.co.uk     Friday 16 Jun 2017 7:48 pm

Conservative ministers were proud of slashing fire regulations, just months ahead of the Grenfell Tower block blaze.   Scores are feared dead in the social housing complex in West London.  In a separate report fire safety inspections, the Conservatives said, had been reduced for some companies from six hours to just 45 minutes.In February this year, ministers posted on a government website details of their ‘anti-red tape’ agenda on new-build properties.  The move, titled Cutting Red Tape, was part of the Tory plans to abolish a ‘health and safety’ culture that they claimed was hurting money-making businesses.  Residents in Grenfell Tower block have complained that their homes were not properly fire-safe including lack of sprinklers and alarms.   Former Prime Minister David Cameron promised to abolish the ‘albatross’ of ‘over regulation’.  The death toll from the fire in Kensington is expected to rise to almost 100.He said in 2012 that a Conservative government would: ‘Kill off the health and safety culture for good’.  More than 2,400 pieces of regulation have been scrapped since Cut Red Tape began.

 

 

[KenONeill]

@gadgetman @lol-lol I'm taking the data about Bronto Skylift capabilities from their website; their top model can put the rescue platform at 100m up and 25m from the chassis. Even at 30 minutes to 1 hour in there were people above the fire that those models could have reached. And how many other similar buildings in Greater London? (not just residential; I'll happily include business premises here too)

[lol-lol]

 

Boris did buy some water cannon trucks but that was more for riot suppression, even though it was illegal to use the. 

 

Amazing bit of kit it looks.  Better buY some soon before BREXIT as the combination of where the exchange rate will continue to go and a duty rate of 3.7%, if we reciprocate EU external tariff, will make them much more expensive than currently.  

 

 

[Ootohere]

Actually the UK has all the engineering skills and workers to build what is needed in the way of equipment.

The UK companies manufacture fracking machinery that is exported around the word, pumps as well.

 

The UK Government or the London Mayor can not get a Fast Response Civil Disaster Management team to an area in London within days of a disaster.

What hope really is there if there are dirty bombs in the underground or the likes.

[camelspyyder]

I think we have Mr Bond to take care of those scenarios...

[Ootohere]

Brooke Bond,   Milk no sugar.  (i did mean in the aftermath!)

Tea and sympathy at No.10 because the PM finds out that she was full of ****, as was Damian (Brown nose) Green mp defending her just hours earlier 

and saying 'all has been getting done'.

 

I think Cll Nicolas Paget-Brown will be moving on quite soon,

seems to have come to his current position as head of the council through the correct employment route, school of 3 monkeys.

http://uk.linkedin.com/in/nicholas-paget-brown-45913b5 

 

 

Edited 18 June, 2017 by Awayoffski

[moley]

6 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

It is not only the lack of enough of the right equipment but that each truck had reducing manning level and when the trucks got there they had a choice of fighting the fire or getting the people out and they of course chose getting the people out but that meant the fire continued to grow and more lives were lost.

 

 

 

 

Any facts to back up that statement as it differs from comments from the London Fire Service that i read.

[@Lee]

Jonathan Pie. This bloke's a comedian but he's got more common sense than those who are allegedly in Government.

 

NSFW and all that

 

 

[lol-lol]

2 hours ago, moley said:

Any facts to back up that statement as it differs from comments from the London Fire Service that i read.

 

More Staff and equipment= more lives saved

 

Truth will out and there will be senior elements in the Fire Service who will defend where they have gone along and implemented cuts but the men and women actual firefighters will, like below but in greater detail to come, will supply the truth.  Having done 2 firefighting course for fighting fires at sea, along with sea survival, the scariest things I have ever done and I have great respect for the actual firefighters, but people like the previous Fire Commissioner "Ron Dobson" have had a cloud over him for years......  

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Dobson

Controversy[edit]   In November 2011, it was revealed that Dobson had retired from his £200,000-a-year post to access an estimated £700,000 lump sum from his pension fund. He was then immediately re-employed into his old position, albeit on lower pay. This occurred at a time when regular firefighters experienced a pay-freeze. The move was described by the Fire Brigades Union as 'deeply unethical'.^[4] 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Background to fire service cuts since 2010

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/15/cuts-fire-service-putting-lives-at-risk

....................Since 2010, more than 10,000 firefighters have been axed, dozens of fire stations have closed, fire engines have been scrapped and levels of emergency rescue equipment has been slashed. In London, 10 fire stations have been closed, 27 fire engines axed and more than 600 firefighter posts have been cut. Every year response times are increasing and 2015-2016 saw a 15% rise in fire deaths compared with the year before.

====================================================================

The fire

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4614248/Firefighter-s-harrowing-account-inside-Grenfell-Tower.html

Decision of death: Hero firefighter reveals his harrowing account of the Grenfell inferno as he faced agonising choice whether to save a mother and daughter on the 10th floor or a family on the 14th

• Hero Jon Warnsby twice fought his way inside the burning Grenfell Tower inferno
• He had to choose between saving a mother and daughter or pushing on further
•  The people in front of him could be saved but the fate of others was less certain

==================================================

Firefighter personal account

Video from Sky, via the link below, is interesting too ie they only had standard BA set rather than the extended tanks to climb building with more than 20 or so levels.  He said: "There's no lift and 24 or 25 floors to run up with all the gear…you wouldn't be able to do the air we had."

Firefighter remembers Grenfell Tower children screaming for help

Damian Magee says fire crews "gave their all" to reach people trapped in the inferno, but the area was like a "warzone"......firefighter realised he didn't have enough oxygen to make it to the top.  (only had std not extra capacity BA sets)

 

http://news.sky.com/story/firefighter-remembers-grenfell-tower-children-screaming-for-help-10918001

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

And a FBU prophecy which unfortunately became all to real....

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/tle-pick/revealed-privatisation-cuts-planned-uk-fire-brigade/05/06/

 

 

Edited 18 June, 2017 by lol-lol

[skomaz]

9 hours ago, gadgetman said:

I can see also some squeaky bums at the various firms who made the decision on the panels, installed them or downgraded them from the original design spec. 

 

You are making the broad assumption there that they were 'downgraded'.  They may not have been and they may have been to the requested spec.  No doubt that will be part of the investigation but don't jump to conclusions just yet...

 

If they were to spec then those that installed them should not be to blame unless they were installed incorrectly, however those that specified them 'might' be if they were not specified to Standards.  If they were to the latter then the Standards need to change.

 

It's really all too early to know but I guess the press love to speculate...

[@Lee]

Adam Curtis, 1984. That's 33 years ago.

 

Scroll to 45 minutes.

 

 

[moley]

1 hour ago, skomaz said:

It's really all too early to know but I guess the press love to speculate...

I think the way the media have covered this tragedy is deplorable along with some politicians who have used this as a political football and have stirred things up with assumptions and statements that are not correct. Sadly we can't turn the clock back or bring back the dead so let the full inquiry get to the truth. In the meantime check all other similar buildings and make sure this doesn't happen again.

 

[gadgetman]

On 2017-6-18 at 11:22, lol-lol said:

 

It is not only the lack of enough of the right equipment but that each truck had reducing manning level and when the trucks got there they had a choice of fighting the fire or getting the people out and they of course chose getting the people out but that meant the fire continued to grow and more lives were lost.

 

 

 

 

All they appliances were fully staffed. 

 

So where did you get this nonsense from? 

[gadgetman]

http://news.sky.com/story/toxic-gases-released-during-grenfell-tower-fire-may-have-caused-some-deaths-10922685

[moley]

The morning after the Grenfell tower fire Jeremey Corbyn blamed the tragedy on austerity. The media claimed the cladding had only been fitted to the tower for aesthetics so the rich people down the road didn't have to look at this ugly building. The Tory council had penny pinched and not fitted a sprinkler system when the building was renovated. The Government were to blame and should resign and let the peoples chosen one JC to take control of the country. Rent a mob arrived on cue and marched on the town hall to kick the doors in and demand to be told 'what's going on?' Before being re housed some residents were forced to sleep on the floor in community centre halls.

Roll on a week and we find that in nearby Camden five tower blocks have had the same cladding fitted and no sprinklers added during renovation work carried out between 2006 - 2010. Camden is a Labour controlled council with Labour MP's and the renovation work was undertaken during a Labour government. Camden have now started to move people from some towers and they are sleeping on floors.

Will rent a mob turn up to demand 'what's going on?' will Jeremy Corbyn blame the work on austerity? Will David Lammy demand to know why Sprinklers were not fitted? 

[moley]

John McDonnell claims that the Grenfell Tower victims were 'murdered' by political decisions. What a complete and utter kn0b!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40401314

[Aspman]

Every politician loves a disaster.

 

I think the whole house is culpable for having passed or failed to pass legislation and or standards to ensure that buildings and refurbishments are carried out to a proper standard.

 

It's a 50yr old problem. So yeah it's the politicians fault but not just this lot, the whole lot that came before them as well.

[@Lee]

Why a knob?

As more facts become clear then I wouldn't be at all surprised if cases of culpable or corporate manslaughter and brought to the courts.

Murder, no. But manslaughter by some definition; it wouldn't surprise me.

[Ootohere]

Facts will clearly show obviously that him and Ken Livingston never made decisions that might get called into question on the housing in Greater London.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McDonnell 

[gadgetman]

Trouble with is the majority of these blocks are in labour controlled councils and/or were refurbished when labour were still in power. 

 

And Corbyn etc aren't all innovation. Been reading they voted against sprinklers and other measures now being championed in the past. 

 

Definitely not using a tragedy and recent hung parliament to try to swing more votes in case there's another election at all. 

[moley]

4 hours ago, Lee01 said:

Why a knob?

He's made this statement for political gain and to inflame the left and stir up trouble. Along with JC they will say anything you want to hear if they think it will win votes and get them into power. This is standard practice for most politicians, but they don't normally stoop this low.

As more and more tower blocks are found to have similar panels to the ones used on the Grenfell tower the inquiry will look at why these panels were allowed to be used and what approvals / standards were used. If a higher specification of panel was specified and corners were cut and a lower spec panel used then charges should be brought and as you say the best you'll get is a manslaughter charge. There could be cases of backhanders to get contracts and use certain materials, but these are subjects for the inquiry to investigate and not for the likes of John McDonnell to speculate about. On the other hand being an IRA, Hamas and Tamil Tiger supporter he probably does know a thing or two about murder.