Help - which engine / transmission

[darius]

Hi,

I currently drive a 2L PD140 Octavia Estate 6 speed manual from 2005 which is specced to almost L&K levels.  The car is front wheel drive and I change to winter tyres given the weather in Scotland. Not found a need for 4WD.  I don't notice a lack of power especially when flipping into 4th for an overtake. 

 

So I've chosen my new Superb trim which will be either SE L Exec + many extras or L&K with less extras. Basically the L&K comes with most of the goodies I want any many I don't need but may be worth going for instead of loading up an SE L. 

 

I've test driven a Superb Sportline 190 with DSG. Actively considering a DSG especially given the flagship level of the car but not sure. There was no 150 diesel available for a test drive. Will be getting flappy paddles to gain some control.

 

Any advice - is the 190 worth it. 

Thoughts on manual vs auto.  

Should I consider the 4x4.

Driven VAG group diesels for the last 16 years and like them, is petrol worth a look ?

 

• 2.0 TDI 150PS
• 2.0 TDI 150PS DSG  - getting a price from CarWow for the SE L with extras
• 2.0 TDI 150PS 4x4 SCR - had a price but not sure if 4x4 needed
• 2.0 TDI 190PS SCR
• 2.0 TDI 190PS DSG SCR - getting a price from CarWow for the L&K with extras
• 2.0 TDI 190PS 4x4 DSG SCR - probably beyond my reach

 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

[penguin17]

I've owned a PD140 Octavia (Elegance, also a '05 and DSG ) in the past and I'd say the current 150PS TDI engine is a significant step up in terms of performance and refinement.  Don't let the 10bhp power increase fool you, it really doesn't tell the full story.  

 

Having owned the current crop of both 150ps and 184ps TDI unit's, I much prefer the 150.  It's smoother, the power delivery is more linear and you don't need to be 'on the gears' as much.  I found with the higher power diesel you only see the benefit higher up the rev range so you make little progress unless booting it, or being at license loosing speeds.  I px'd a 150ps Leon FR  for a 184ps FR and I was very disappointed indeed, I actually had the car remapped by Revo after a few months.   I also find the 150 much more refined at both idle and cruising speed.  I'm coming close to 7k miles in my Sportline and it's still very smooth despite feeling like it's loosened up. 

 

You also need to consider that the 190ps unit uses AdBlue too. Judging by other comments on this forum, I'm not the only one who prefers the 150ps unit. 

 

I don't feel like I made the wrong choice with a manual but having owned a DSG in the past I would say it would definitely suit the characteristics of the Superb and would make for a very relaxing drive indeed.  I'm a big fan of the DSG but I just prefer a manual. 

 

Diesel vs petrol? For me, covering 25k miles per year out of my own pocket the diesel just makes the most financial sense.  Though my mileage is due to decrease significantly in the next year, if it stays <17k per year then I'm going back to petrol.  I love the 2 litre TSI engine, it's an absolute gem and if I can afford it in a year or two then I'd go for the 280 but if I had to be sensible and running costs were still a major consideration then the 220 ps is still lovely to drive and is just as flexible as a diesel, but much more refined.   I think a 220ps SE L with a few select options would be a very nice choice.   Though for me, it all comes down to running costs at present. 

 

If you've never felt the need for 4wd then why bother now?  Your current setup with Winter tyres seems to work for you so perhaps you can opt for going without 4wd and getting some options and/or the engine which you will get the most benefit from? 

[Nick_H]

Well.... My 2p... DSG. This is my first and going back to manual would be difficult. Caveats are that if you don't use the gearbox properly you may not like it. Can be relaxing or great fun if giving the car some hammer.

 

4x4 ... Isnt just for snow. Again my last 2 cars have been Haldex equipped and it would be difficult to have to change back ...

[facet edge]

I have a 1.4 tsi SE-L Executive and find the power more than adequate for me. I would be a bit worried about the current anti diesel sentiment about at the moment.

I find the dsg is superb and wouldn't be without it.

If your looking at Carwow try http://www.carfile.net I found them a lot cheaper and the car is still dealer sourced, albeit maybe not a dealer near you but I found the trip to the dealer all part of the fun!

[skidpan]

The 1.4 TSi 150 PS is all the engine most people would ever need. We are now on our second and currently would not consider anything else. In the Superb its averaged just over 45 mpg (calculated) so far, had less economical diesels. Trim is down to personal preference but the SE gives all the necessary bits, we just added privacy glass, folding passenger seat and rear wiper. Has Android Auto so why spend extra for sat nav. Why buy leather, I don't want a sweaty backside when I get out at the services. If I wanted to sit on leather I would take up riding a cow.

 

As for auto's if you have 2 legs and 2 arms I don't see the need. All they do is cost more and in most cases go slower and waste fuel. The DSG is notorious for breaking and costing £££££'s to fix. When I was a kid one mates dad had one arm and managed well enough with a manual and another had one leg and also drove a manual. Back in those days people knew how to manage.

 

Bought ours via Carfile, great deal with no hassle.

[Nick_H]

:-) 150 is all the engine most people will ever need ? Lol !

 

Leather and sweaty backside ? Wrong.

 

DSG - Wrong :-)

[skidpan]

8 minutes ago, Nick_H said:

:-) 150 is all the engine most people will ever need ? Lol !

 

We only use a fraction of the power the car has so what would I do with another 130 PS, I know, not use it. On a recent holiday trip to Scotland I probaly floored it once or twice when overtaking, plenty of go when needed.

 

8 minutes ago, Nick_H said:

Leather and sweaty backside ? Wrong.

 

Some people like leather and sweaty backsides but I am not one of them.

 

8 minutes ago, Nick_H said:

DSG - Wrong :-)

 

Driven 1 Golf and 3 Octavias with DSG's. 2 were diesels with 6 speeds and 2 were petrols with 7 speeds. Disliked them all. Why pay extra top spoil a car.

[facet edge]

31 minutes ago, skidpan said:

 Why buy leather, I don't want a sweaty backside when I get out at the services. If I wanted to sit on leather I would take up riding a cow.

 

As for auto's if you have 2 legs and 2 arms I don't see the need. 

 

I've got Alcantara and find it very comfortable.

2 legs  = 2 pedals, have you got three legs?

 

[skidpan]

25 minutes ago, facet edge said:

 

I've got Alcantara and find it very comfortable.

2 legs  = 2 pedals, have you got three legs?

 

 

Alcantara is not leather, its a fabric that looks like suede. Its never seen a live animal.

 

People have managed to operate the 3 pedals with 2 legs since the car was invented. You nprmally only operate 2 at any one time. Rally and racing drivers used to manage to operate the brake and accelerator together with one foot but that is a technique not need by mortals on the road.

[Nick_H]

52 minutes ago, skidpan said:

 

We only use a fraction of the power the car has so what would I do with another 130 PS, I know, not use it. On a recent holiday trip to Scotland I probaly floored it once or twice when overtaking, plenty of go when needed.

 

You said its it's all the engine most people will ever need.... Bit presumptuous....

52 minutes ago, skidpan said:

 

Some people like leather and sweaty backsides but I am not one of them.

 

You dont get a sweaty backside with leather.

52 minutes ago, skidpan said:

 

 

Driven 1 Golf and 3 Octavias with DSG's. 2 were diesels with 6 speeds and 2 were petrols with 7 speeds. Disliked them all. Why pay extra top spoil a car.

 

Thats probably because you don't know how to drive with a DSG. 

[dg360]

I see Skidpans point, the trouble is where do you stop.  

I really don't need a good looking car - after all I can't see it whilst I'm driving it.  

Build quality, just turn up the radio and get another cheap car in 2-3 years.  

Crash protection? pah I used to ride on the rear parcel shelf of an Austin Princess when I were a lad (really), I'm still here to tell the tale.

etc etc.

I'm sure that this basically ends with me walking into a Dacia dealer and buying a Logan.  They start at £7,295 apparently! and probably do 80%+ of what any other normal car can do.

 

Nope - not for me, new Superb 3 due in a couple of weeks  with all of the frivolous bits.

[Nick_H]

Nothing wrong with a Logan ! I really fancy a 4x4 Duster .... Ive been seriously considering one to replace Mrs H's old Hyundai ... Trouble is I would want to drive it and she doesn't like the Superb !

[facet edge]

2 hours ago, skidpan said:

 

Alcantara is not leather, its a fabric that looks like suede. Its never seen a live animal.

 

 

I never said it was. I was merely suggesting that you may find Alcantara more comfortable as then you still get the seat trimmed with leather.

[darius]

My current octy has heated leather seats. Never had a sweaty bum - we are north of the wall up hear in Scotland where summer means the rain melts before it hits the ground.

 

I only wish my third leg could reach the pedals :-)

 

Thanks for all the replys - lots to mull over

[IJWS15]

I currently have a 2017 150 TDI SEL Exec, it replaced an Octavia with the 150 TDI (2015 car so earlier engine) and before that a 2012 140 Tdi Passat.  

 

I have driven several DSG cars including a 3.2TT and the origianl Golf GT with both supercharger and turbocharger.

 

4wd in a car is for vehicles with too much power for 2wd to handle, if the conditions are too bad for 2wd and winter tyres then you need a proper 4x4 with more ground clearance.  I have never felt the need for more than the 140/150hp that 5 of my last 6 cars have had.

 

DSG - If I was leasing short term maybe, never in a car I was buying.  They have a following but at 3-4 years old would you buy one?  I still can't come to terms with low speed maneuvering in confined spaces and with the diesel torque you are not changing gear all the time.  It is really aimed at the boy racer in most of us.  My son has had several Audis with DSG and just switched to a 335d with the 8 speed torque converter auto which he says is way better.

 

So if you are a boy racer go for the 190 with DSG AND 4X4, for all practical uses the 150 Tdi is far more than adequate.  Diesel will recover from the bad press.  It is the older cars/trucks that are the problem, not the newer cars, remember the cloud of smoke you used to get on acceleration . . .   

[Nick_H]

Interesting points :-)

[wooyay]

Picking up on some of the points raised, I'll add my experience to the mix.  For reference my previous car was a 170 CRTDI Octavia VRS.

 

I'd already decided that I wanted to move back to petrol but the dealer could only offer me the 190 TDI DSG Superb to test drive and I was very disappointed with the engine/gearbox combination.  Although it felt perfectly at home cruising along I didn't like it at slower speeds nor did it feel as responsive as my outgoing 170 TDI.  If I were looking for diesel I'd certainly try the 150.

 

However the 280 petrol engine is miles apart, especially now I've covered over 5k with it, and it seems to go really well with the DSG box.  It's my first non-manual car and for an everyday car I doubt I'd go back.  So much more relaxing when stuck in traffic or eating motorway miles, and coupled with the ACC it really is (mostly) a joy.  Yes, consumption figures are lower but the grins and happiness levels are way higher.

 

The leather seats in my previous Octavia could get uncomfortably sticky on hot days so this time around I added ventilated seats to the Superb and they are wonderful.  No sweat problems at all even in the most recent heat and it felt I was arriving at my destination more refreshed than when I'd started.

[Mickey43]

I have the 190 diesel DSG in an L&K spec.  Never driven a 150 so cant compare that but what i will say it does have a bit of grunt when required especially in sport mode.  Its real strength is at motorway speed when needing to kick up from say 70 to 80 when required- it is effortless.  Didnt expect any Superb diesel to be rapid but its got enough when required.  I must say though when i change next time i would look at the petrol/sportline variants as from reports on here they seem to be great to drive and fairly economical.

 

The adblue is such a cheap, easy, rarely required thing that its not really a consideration.  

 

Leather seats are great, very comfortable indeed and not at all "sweaty".  I had alcantara on a previous car and found them to be more prone to sweating and they were also a b**ger to clean.  

 

The DSG is great- would never go back to a manual.......... even if I grew a third leg!.

 

 

[skidpan]

11 hours ago, facet edge said:

 

I never said it was. I was merely suggesting that you may find Alcantara more comfortable as then you still get the seat trimmed with leather.

 

I originally said "Alcantara is not leather, its a fabric that looks like suede. Its never seen a live animal." We drove an Octavia with Alcantara seats and if we had liked the Octavia it would have been that spec we bought. The seats looked nice but in reality were no more comfortable than cloth. At least you were not sliding all over the place when cornering which is more of an issue for the slender(ish) wife and people in the back than me. What worries me most about Alcantara is the way it goes shiny on the high contact areas very quickly and then look hideous. We had a car with a part Alcantara steering wheel about 10 years ago. After 3 years the leather bits looked mint, the Alcantara parts looked naff. Looked at getting it retrimmed but the prices quoted were daft.

 

As for my comment regarding the "1.4 TSi 150 PS is all the engine most people would ever need", well the OP asked for opinions and I gave mine. Some people will always want the most powerful in a range, some for boasting rights down the pub, some so they can drive like an total arse, there are other reasons of course. But having loads of power does not necessarily make a car better and it certainly does not guarantee to get you from A to B any quicker. Here's one example, twice a year we visit Scotland, been doing it now for about 25 years. We go the same route every time which is probably 75% motorway/dual carraigeway with the rest good A roads. In the 25 years its changed very little, a few improvements but nothing much. We have used 7 cars in total, first was a Bluebird 1.8 with about 80 PS, then a Golf TDi with 90 PS. A 130 PS Mondeo TDCi followed that, then a Focus 110 PS TDCi, then a Kia Ceed 115 PS CRDi, then The Leon 140 PS TSi and now the Superb 150 PS TSi. 25 years ago our travelling time for the 430 miles was about 7 1/4 hours on a decent trip, average speed 59.3 mph. Last month in the Superb it took us 7 1/4 hours, just like it has in all the other cars. So we now have virtually double the power we had 25 years ago and it still takes the same time (but we used a lot less petrol, the Bluebird did just over 30 mpg, the Superb did just over 50 mpg). Would buying a 4 x 4 280 PS Superb cut our journey time, not unless I drove at stupid speed and risked huge numbers of points and fines. But then again the 1.4 TSi is capable of stupid speeds so if I desired I could cut my journey time in that as well.

 

Here's another example. I love visiting Cadwell Park and the journey there is on good A roads (only about 2 miles of dual carraigeway) but lots of villages, tractors etc. Always go early to get the best value for money and avoid the traffic going to the coast. Back in 1989 I had a Golf GTi, 112 PS 1.8 Mk 2. Its about 72 miles door to door and on one nice early summer morning I did the run in 55 minutes, that's an average of 78 mph, saw 3 figures on the speedo for a good part of the trip but I took no risks. With the Leon which had the 1.4 TSi 140 PS under the bonnet could I get near that time, no way, too many speed cameras. Best I have done in recent times was 1 hour 20 minutes, 50% longer than in 1989 but still pretty good at an average of 54 mph considering a fair bit has a 50 mph limit now with 30 mph in the villages. Would a 280 PS Superb done it any quicker, I doubt it (without taking stupid risks).

 

Its each to their own, I have my opinions and when asked I will give them.

[penguin17]

2 hours ago, Mickey43 said:

I have the 190 diesel DSG in an L&K spec.  Never driven a 150 so cant compare that but what i will say it does have a bit of grunt when required especially in sport mode.  Its real strength is at motorway speed when needing to kick up from say 70 to 80 when required- it is effortless.  

 

Agree with this 100%.  The major difference between the two....top end work.  The 190 will just pull as if it's in 4th.  Whilst the 150 feels a little labored getting moving when you're already up to motorway speeds. 

[Gerrycan]

Given that @darius found his old pd140 performance was more than adequate on the open road then I can understand his request for advice because he has almost too much choice really. Bit like going to a good restaurant with several good things on the menu.

 

The DSG box is virtually flawless on the open road but has attracted criticism around town and in slower traffic or on roundabouts.

It is difficult to pin it down to any specifics, 6 or 7 speed, wet/dry, diesel/petrol because I think I have read both eulogistic and critical reviews of most combinations. I'm never sure if it is a reflection of personal preference or inconsistent quality control.

Personally I prefer manuals but the DSGs I have tried were among the best automatic boxes I've driven. Torque converter boxes just don't do it for me....and others have the exact opposite opinion to me.

 

The OP does not think he needs AWD and I tend to agree that hauling around all that extra weight and complication is not necessary if you don't have traction issues caused by high power or road conditions. If you have 280hp or a lot of muddy/snow/dirt roads then AWD is the sensible decision.

 

As far as 150 or 190 hp diesel is concerned then I get a strong impression from this forum that the 150 is the better option from both the drivability and the economy perspectives. The real life returns reported for the 190 are noticeably poorer than the 150 in similar circumstances.

 

If the preference is for the 150hp then the OP should try and get a ride in a 1.4tsi for comparison. There is little performance difference between the 150hp versions of either fuel. While the petrol version is down on torque at the flywheel, the gearing means that the torque delivered to the road is virtually the same, the petrol is a lot quieter and smoother and revs out easier. If you have not driven a modern VAG low boost turbo then you really should. It was a real eye opener for me when I transitioned from my previous much loved diesel. The 1.4tsi feels like a much larger engine.

The Superb 1.4tsi is also equipped with the ACT engine so fuel economy can be almost diesel-like (not quite as good on a longer run but if you get into a cycle of short runs then the petro will be better).

 

The 2.0tsi offers even better performance but is markedly less economical and that may be a factor with current annual mileage.

 

I don't think you can make a bad decision on any of your choices but test driving as many options as possible is the only way to sort out your priorities.

 

Added Note: One aspect I forgot to mention is that the 1.4tsi offers virtually no engine braking especially compared to a PD diesel. Takes a little while to get used to it especially in hilly areas where you will be using the brakes more than you used to.  

 

Edited 28 June, 2017 by Gerrycan

[darius]

Yeah its hard. I'm heading towards the 150 diesel or possibly the 220 petrol. The 140PD is very flexible and more to the point there are a couple of roundabouts in Aberdeen where you need to move from standstill really smartly to hit your gap. 

 

I do like the idea of the auto though especially with adaptive cruise control. I have a mix of 8 miles commutes to longer 140 mile round trips at weekends on the A96. That being said I did the police civilian driving course (similar to IAM standard) many years ago before my son was born and the habits re gears etc are well entrained.

 

I plan to keep the car a good while. Once out of warranty my nephew can do the servicing and MOTs ( :-)  family rates - its one reason why my 05 is on the road as its very cheap to keep going £200-300 / year max. I also have VCDS which has helped tackle a number of repairs (diagnosed / replaced intake flap motor assembly, ESP issues usually wheel bearing related). 

 

Snow tyres have handled the worst of an Aberdeenshire winter (literally as good as chains) so yes cant see what 4WD would give me over my current driving style apart from when it snows in April 2 days after changing to summer tyres (the Octy is totally hopeless on snow in summer tyres). Local Costco is pushing hybrid tyres however purchase no 1 will be a set of full winters which I'll wear out in parallel with the stock summer tyres - may then consider hybrids.

 

So its probably coming around to

- DSG long term reliability 6 speed wet clutch serviced properly
- DSG nippiness from standstill when needed. The 190 sportline DSG was nippy but I never got a chance to properly boot it. I did try some standing starts in an empty car park - just about ok.
- DSG nip down from 6 to 4 for a fast overtake (I know its 2 steps)
- DSG can my Nephew fix it (parts would have to come from TPS)

 

On one hand I want the DSG on the other I've been on the receiving end of Skoda after sales service when every VAG group ESP pump failed due to a design fault (Teves MK60), not to mention the dual mass flywheel and cruise control stalk issues. All after the 3 year warranty but the MK60 was after 5 years so didn't even have Sales of Goods act (5 years in Scotland) which would have let me go after the dealer as many on watchdog had done.

 

 

[simhub]

I'd say don't worry too much about how the DSG will drive.  It can pull away smartly from a standstill, it just does so with more of a lurch than a torque converter would.  Ideally you come off the brakes about a second early if you've seen a gap, let the clutch engage at a crawl, then boot it.

 

I've had the DSG6 in the past (in a Golf), I have a DSG7 now in an S2 and I've got a new S3 with the DSG6 on order.  I did need a new mechatronic unit in my current DSG7 at 35,000 miles, but luckily it was under warranty.  From what I've heard the DSG6 is more reliable, it's certainly been in production longer.

 

I've seen a thread somewhere on here saying that the 2.0 TDIs are moving to the new VW DSG7 from week 27 for the 150 and week 32 for the 190.  I think it's a brand new wet clutch unit, but I've never owned one of them so I can't say what it's like.

[Lol6]

I did plenty of reading and research before I chose my Superb last year.  

 

I decided on manual diesel as I tow a caravan and I have never trusted the reliability of dsg gearboxes having heard and read various stories of failure.  The only auto box to cut it is the BMW 8 speed IMHO.

 

The 150 as there seemed to be little advantage in the 190.  It is smooth and quiet for a diesel with enough punch for the rare occasions when performance is needed or can be used on crowded south east roads.

 

Alcantara seats for less extremes of temperature and more grip in what I find to be an extremely relaxing and comfortable driving position.  I have a VW Bora, owned for 13 years, with leather/alcantara trim.  It still looks fine having received minimal attention.

 

My main criticism of the car is sloppy body control.  Otherwise, I am very content with my choice.  Each to their own, eh?

[IJWS15]

On the alcantara topic we came back from the Alps 10 days ago, 30 C or more all the way, A/C on at 21 for me and 17 for the wife, no sweaty backsides.  Temperatures were more comfortable in the car than they were in the hotel rooms.

Edited 29 June, 2017 by IJWS15