Massive Electrical failure

[xop321]

i have a massive failure of electrical system today on my citigo.

the remote central locking, boot operation not working

the wipers, heater fan, interior door locking not working

the heated seats, indicators, rear window heater all not not working

 

half the electrics on the car have stop working!!!!!!

to top it off a engine management light has come one, and the diagnostics sockect seems to be unresponsive, i connect a code reader to the socket and its not connecting


it seems strange for all these systems to fail at the same time

i have checked the fuses on the drivers side footwell and all look good

i have checked the fuses next to the battery and all look good

i have not checked the fuses on the passenger side as the passenger door will not open as its stuck in the locked postion!!

does anyone no if theres a main fuse or relay / power relay for the systems like i have mentioned that could have failed??

 

 

and there location!!!!!

 

[Snaefell]

>it seems strange for all these systems to fail at the same time

 

Have you (or somebody else) done something recently e.g fitted a new battery/jump started the car/fitted tow bar electrics etc?  If you have, you need to see if you've disconnected something obvious that hasn't been reconnected.

 

Then, check everything electrical to determine what is (and isn't) working - make a written note as they may be related e.g. poor earth.

 

Check the ALL the fuses with a multimeter (via resistance).  Check also a live feed at each fuse in the fuse box(es) (via voltage).

 

>does anyone no if there's a main fuse or relay / power relay for the systems like i have mentioned that could have failed?

 

It looks that way.

 

If all ok fuse/power supply wise, check the relays.  It is sometimes possible to check each relay by swapping for a known good relay (e.g. headlamp/horn relay).

 

Do you have a wiring diagram?

 

Get back with more info if you can.

 

Cheers - Snaefell.

[xop321]

nothing has been changed, no new battery, no jump start , nothing added or changed

 

the only thing that I did do is carpet clean the whole interior, with a wet vac, all the seats and the carpet, the car did mist up for a couple of days, not sure if this could affect the main power control module behind the dash

 

 

I have 3 citgos and 1 up so I will swap over the relays to see if this effects it

 

very strange why so many systems have all failed at the same time!!!

 

 

I will check and note all the systems tomorrow like you mention and I will check all the fuses with a multimeter

 

 

for the relays are you referring to the ones just above the drivers side fuses, the ones accessed from the removing the end dash panel that has the airbag on/off switch

the relays here are labelled 664 x2, 645 x3, 646x2, 507 x1

 

I have been trying to open the passenger all day with no luck, removed the door panel etc to get to the locking mech but there seems to be no way to open the door at all , as the door is locked and the remote locking is not working and the open/close switch on the drivers side is not working

 

I will report back findings tomorrow, thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[oxonboxn]

Does the affected car have Stop-Start engine? I ask because you say you've used a wet-vac on the carpet/seats and the Stop-Start variant has some important equipment (electrics-wise) under the front passenger seat. Just a thought.....

[Snaefell]

>nothing has been changed, no new battery, no jump start , nothing added or changed.

 

I have known another member of a family leave the lights on and subsequently have to (incorrectly) jump start the car, then fail to tell dad of the error.  As a mechanic of 39 years, it's not uncommon not to be told the full story.  Check with everyone who has had access to the vehicle and interrogate accordingly.

 

>the only thing that I did do is carpet clean the whole interior, with a wet vac, all the seats and the carpet, the car did mist up for a couple of days,  not sure if this could affect the main power control module behind the dash.

 

Unlikely, as most of the connectors are IP (ingress protection) rated.  Certainly against water, as drivers get into the car with wet shoes and switch the heater on to dry the floor mats out.

 

>very strange why so many systems have all failed at the same time!

 

A brief check of the handbook gives different fuses for the heater fan (Fuse37), indicators (F32), rear screen heater (F46), remote locking (F41), ignition module (F42) and diagnostic connector (F28).

 

>I will check and note all the systems tomorrow like you mention and I will check all the fuses with a multimeter

 

It's where I'd start post a cursory check of the accessible wiring looms for damage e.g. engine earth strap loose etc.

 

>I have been trying to open the passenger all day with no luck.

 

I'm not sure, but believe they're deadlocked. So if a scallywag breaks the glass, he still needs the key/central locking to release the latch to open the door.  For obvious reasons there's no easy way around this and I suspect the dealer can remotely access the lock with his laptop via the 16 pin diagnostics port.  Can slimjim 'keys' gain access?

 

>for the relays are you referring to the ones just above the drivers side fuses, the ones accessed from the removing the end dash panel that has the airbag on/off switch

the relays here are labelled 664 x2, 645 x3, 646x2, 507 x1.

 

I have to confess that other than owning a Citigo for 12 months and 17k miles, I've no idea where the relays are, and somewhat unhelpfully, there's no mention of them in the handbook.  But when you do find them, it's sometimes possible to exchange relays  with each other to eliminate a bad one e.g. the horn is usually relayed and rarely fails due to lack of use.  So mark the relays with a pen, take a photo with your phone and swap them around.  Some relays have a higher current rating but as it's only a 'diagnostic' fix, it's satisfactory.  Likewise check the relays are similar, some have 4 pins, some have an extra pin in the centre - it depends on which way they're switched.  Sometimes the door latches operate through 2 relays simultaneously, to open with one relay and then close the latch with the other.

 

You could try the Seat/VW forums to see if this is a common problem with an easy fix.  Try youtube, too.  That is a good diagnostic tool.

 

I have a CD type workshop manual for a VW Up at work, I can check on Monday if you're still needing assistance.

 

Sorry I can't be of more help, but there's a bit to keep you going.

 

Snaefell.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Snaefell]

12 minutes ago, oxonboxn said:

Does the affected car have Stop-Start engine? I ask because you say you've used a wet-vac on the carpet/seats and the Stop-Start variant has some important equipment (electrics-wise) under the front passenger seat. Just a thought.....

 

Good point.

 

And caution, the air bag 'seat occupied' sensors are under there too.  Usually bright yellow in colour.

 

Snaefell.

[xop321]

it does have start stop, none of the electrics have been wet I basicly cleaned the car on a hot day, and they windows misted up a couple of days after as the weather changed and was raining so the car was not aired out

 

I forgot to mention that the start/stop system light is flashing on the dashboard and also the city safe light is flashing and I get the buzzer no on starting the engine

 

I suspect a relay or there a power modlue up behind the dash, assuming one fault is causing all the problem for it to occur like this

 

 

[xop321]

I just swapped all the relays over and still the same, so I can rule out thoose

 

I have tested all the fuses in the drivers footwell and all ok

 

heres a list of what is not working

 

hazard warning lights

heated seats

rear window deforst

indicators

windscreen wipers

door lock switch

remote key locking/unlocking

alarm

rear boot switch

interior light

horn

interior fan

 

also

engine light on

city safe flashing

stop/start flashing

 

 

 

heres what is working

 

electric windows

radio

lights

main beam lights

washer bottle for wipers

electric mirrors

 

 

 

engine starts and runs, but eml light now on

 

 

I can not access the fuses on the passenger side as the door is in locked postion, so unable to check fuses there

 

 

 

 

[Snaefell]

>I just swapped all the relays over and still the same, so I can rule out those.

 

You need to determine if there is power to the central locking (CL) relay by checking the relevant (female) pin30 on the 'relayboard'.  It's possible to temporarily by-pass the relay by feeding 12v live off the battery terminal to the other female pin87.  By other, I mean the relay 'out' pin.  There are usually 4 pins on the relay.  One from the switch/ecu which is grounded (earthed) to another when activated, from memory they are 85 and 86.  This will activate the electro magnet/solenoid and switch the battery live (pin 30) to the service required (87) possibly via an ecu. Most relays have the pin numbers and switching diagram on them.  Be aware that not all relays are switched in the same way, and there are 4 and 5 pin relays.  Confusingly some have a redundant 5th (centre) pin.

 

>I have tested all the fuses in the drivers footwell and all ok

 

If you can locate the CL relay, you may be able to 'jump' from 30 to 87 to fire up the central locking ecu (if there is one).  From memory, CL's have 2 relays working simultaneously, one to open and one to close.

 

Failing that can you 'live' feed the door latch solenoid by removing the door card?  This will allow access to the fuse box and aid further diagnosis.  And if you can get at the latch with the door card removed, would 'slimjim' keys be of benefit, just to open the door?

 

Sorry I can't be of more help and it takes ages to write, but in reality only a few mins to physically diagnose.

 

Is this a common fault?  Can the VW & Seat owners club assist?

 

Snaefell (Marown, IoM)

[Rooted]

Since you have bought and sold 12 UpMiiCitigo's i take it you are a trader, is it not worth spending a little on an Auto Electrician rather than just trial and error?

[xop321]

thanks snaefell you have been really helpfull

 

trained as a  mechinac back in 1998  and I buy and sell a few cars as a hobby for the last 10 years now, so i no my way around a few spanners just a little bit

 

i don't want to pay a auto electrician unless it the last resort, it always make you happy to find a fix a fault yourself, of course with help from others (with expert knowledge / experiance) on forums like this  fixing faults can be easyier

 

this massive electrical failure is rather strange as its just a uncommon fault to encounter on these cars, looks like no one else has ever had it looking around the forums 

 

i want to get to the bottom of this and report back so if anyone else gets the problem they can also get some guidance where to start looking

 

the problem is still unresolved, as yet not checked the fuses to the passenger dashboard end behind the locked door ( will be trying your bypass method tomorrow )

 

i have a vas 5054a code reader that i have used in the past on vw/audi's but no laptop atm, i have just browed a old laptop to but the vas pc diagnostic software on, so hopefully that might work and shed light on the problem

 

i was just pluging in a generic autel code reader to the diagnostic socket which was not connecting at all , so fingers crossed the vas will work and the diagnostic socket is not dead

 

 

i was thinking ( a wild guess ) that maybe theres a fault in bsi/bsm unit above the fusebox,

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2014-SKODA-CITIGO-1-0-VW-UP-SEAT-MII-BREAKING-FUSE-BOX-BSI-UNIT/122506220763?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

 

 if its something as simple as this  that has failed its a cheap fix, fingers crossed   

 

the stop start cars seem to have a different fuse layout than the cars without it, so i am assuming as my car is start/stop i will need the replacment part from the correct car 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 8 August, 2017 by xop321

[Snaefell]

ERWIN, may be able to help with the wiring diagram.

 

https://erwin.skoda-auto.cz/erwin/showHome.do

 

You have to register, and there's a small fee for info (about £5/hr), but it is printable.

 

Alternately, autodata may have info.

 

https://www.autodata-group.com/uk/our-products/cars/subscribe-autodata/

 

I'm away from my VW info at the moment (until Mon 14th).

 

>i was thinking ( a wild guess ) that maybe theres a fault in bsi/bsm unit above the fusebox,

 

Maybe check the master feed into this unit?

 

Snaefell.

[Citigouk]

with some many failures I've only experienced something like this once before (like in 1999) when driving Ford Mondeo 2.5i V6 Ghia X......... on that occasion it was found to be ECU related. As I dont know alot about the citigo but maybe an easy check would be to swap some ECU over and see if the faults remain or not.

[barnie]

Only similar experience I had was a dead short on alternator, Saab, everything from central locking to power steering gave up, warning lights all over dash .

Edited 11 August, 2017 by barnie

[bluecar1]

did you steam clean /jet wash under the bonnet as well as shampoo the carpets?

[xop321]

PLOBREM HAS SOLVED ITSELF TODAY !!!!!!!!

 

went to the car today and everything seems to be working again, which is rather strange

 

I did not steam/jet wash under the bonnet

 

I did clean the car interior twice as it was so dirty

 

I used a heavy commercial carpet washer cleaned it once on a hot day, then a few days latter cleaned it again as the carpets/seats where so dirty

 

after the second wash of the seats and carpets the car was left closed up and I did notice misting up on the windows, as it was raining for a few days, after a few days weather changed so it stop misting up and must have dired out completely

 

 

what I did

 

checked all the fuses all ok

 

removed the control box under the passenger seat and replaced it with a different one from another car, this made no difference so put orginal one back

 

took battery off car and charged it up

 

 

the car still had the faults after doing all the above

 

 

on going to the car today this morning, everything seems to be working

 

engine light was on with a code relating to failure to connect, cleared this code and its no come back

 

the airbag light is now on on startup it goes off then comes on and remains lit, turning the airbags on and off seems to still work, just left with this problem now

 

 

 

I would have liked to pinpoint a fault with this, as I still have the concern the fault could come back at any time

Edited 11 August, 2017 by xop321

[Snaefell]

>the airbag light is now on on startup it goes off then comes on and remains lit, turning the airbags on and off seems to still work, just left with this problem now

 

For supplemental restraint system (SRS) problems, disconnect the battery (earth, -ve, lead to chassis).  Don't connect anything to the 12V socket (to retain the radio code etc.)

 

Leave for 10 minutes to discharge any residual current.

 

Disconnect any SRS related connector (they are usually bright yellow in colour) and check/clean the terminals.

 

The biggest culprit is usually under the seat as it gets knocked by people putting stuff under there - and being near the floor they can suffer from damp/corrosion etc.

 

Reconnect the battery and check for diagnostic trouble codes (DTC's).

 

Best of luck. Snaefell.

[Solen]

The exact same thing has happened to me today. My Citigo was working fine on Thursday but when I came to open it today, the central locking didn't work. Then I noticed my widescreen wipers were not working either. The same items as xop321. I wonder if he managed to sort the problem out. 

[Jonny118118]

1 hour ago, Solen said:

The exact same thing has happened to me today. My Citigo was working fine on Thursday but when I came to open it today, the central locking didn't work. Then I noticed my widescreen wipers were not working either. The same items as xop321. I wonder if he managed to sort the problem out. 

Having read above, it kinda sounds as though it’s something water related. 

 

It sounds as though @xop321 just let the car dry out and all returned to normal. 

 

Have you experienced anything unusual relating to moisture in the car? Mists up a lot? 

Or, like @xop321 have you cleaned the interior? 

[Solen]

Hi,

It has always misted up a lot. I thought it was normal as it is such a small car. I park it outside. It is not wet inside though. 

[Jonny118118]

30 minutes ago, Solen said:

Hi,

It has always misted up a lot. I thought it was normal as it is such a small car. I park it outside. It is not wet inside though. 

I’d be keen to check all seals and drainage holes around the car. 

 

Try putting a dehumidifier bag in the car, on the parcel shelf.

 

 

[Solen]

Thank you so much, I will do that. 

[Jonny118118]

Just now, Solen said:

Thank you so much, I will do that. 

Also keep your AC on when the cars running to help draw out the moisture in the car. 

Mine hardly mists up now, and when it does it goes within a few minutes. 

 

It never had any major misting up problems though, I’d just found it annoying so found afew techniques (listed above) to help reduce it. 

 

Out of interest, what spec is your car? Might be a problem known to autos?

[Solen]

I have been using the AC, it has helped a little. My car is a 2014 Citigo Elegance Greentech 1.0.

[Jonny118118]

13 minutes ago, Solen said:

I have been using the AC, it has helped a little. My car is a 2014 Citigo Elegance Greentech 1.0.

Manual or automatic?