The new Octavia PHEV/Electric

[Isleman]

What do you recon ? Are we going to see the First Octavia PHEV or full electric in 2019 or 2020 ?

https://www.parkers.co.uk/car-advice/2018/skoda-plans-electric-car-assault-after-record-year/

 

Edited 22 March, 2018 by Isleman

[wyx087]

It's about time!

 

With Golf GTE and eGolf, there's no reason why it can't be repackaged into Octavia. In Mk3, there is a massive empty space above the rear axil for electrification.

[Ootohere]

Once they sort out the batteries in the e-Golf and e-Up!,.  seemingly being done for the e-Citigo. 

 

Then the petrol engine for the Golf GTE.  because the C02 g/km figures of the 1.4 TSI engine car is a work of fiction.

So maybe a 1.0 TSI or 1.5 TSI with Gasoline Perticulate Filter and low Co2  g/km when using petrol and they will be ready to go.

 

Until then, close the order books, and forget the EU test results showing now, they are implausible in the Real World Testing.

Some would say cheat results.

[Gabbo]

I dont really see the point on a PHEV, just makes everything heavier & increases the overall emissions of the car as the battery is charged from a combustion engines.

An affordable, all electrical car might be interesting though for those that dont drive large distances. (affordable being the important part).

Double the price for an electric car

 

However, for me the important sentance in the article is this one:
"The company’s direction is being shaped by forthcoming EU CO2 legislation, which will heavily fine car manufacturers that can’t get its fleet average to meet the more stringent emissions rules."

The is exactly the same reason why Aston Martin made the Cyget (Toyota iGo) to avoid paying a fine by "advertising" a car they will never sell.

 

These badly-planned european regulations are exactly why we have the "emissions scandal" now.

None of the European manufactuers are actually breaking EU emissions rules because they only define 1 emissions cycle profile with no requirement for emissions outside this specific profile.

 

Fines for manufaturers & they have clever people that will get round them.

Offer incentives to customers for buying one & the manufactuers will make what people want to buy.

[stepdavi]

I think the phev is good for city driving. As in use pure electric in built up city's where air quality is poor then allow the hybrid to kick in on motorways/none built up areas. Pure electric cars are NOT green. Making them for a start. The batteries and the like. 

Then the charging up part. (Working at a power station I know this) most people will be charging overnight. Obviously no solar power over night and to be honest there is usually little wind power. Not taking into account interconnectors from Europe our nuclear fleet of power stations isn't enough to provide solely now. Coal / gas make up the considerable shortfall which will increase as overnight demand on national grid increases.

The odd time it is very windy and we see 10GW wind production there are numerous fossil stations running a minimum load ready to ramp up as soon as wind dies down.

So in my opinion pure elec isn't the way forward and certainly inst green. 

PHEV interesting or just straight forward hybrid with petrol driving 2 wheels for long distance, elec driving 2 wheels for city, and 4wd for fun. And the option to charge the batteries when using the petrol engine on cruising motorway speeds.

Only my opinion.

Edited 22 March, 2018 by stepdavi

[Ootohere]

I loved my Toyota iQ, loads of fun, loads of space for 2 in the front and as much luggage space as many a sports car.

Could carry 4 adults if a double at the knee amputee  was behind the driver.

 

Pity that there is no EV iQ.

The Aston Martin Cygnet did sell a few, to those buying a bigger Aston Martin, and as a nice bargain used.

[wyx087]

1 hour ago, Gabbo said:

I dont really see the point on a PHEV, just makes everything heavier & increases the overall emissions of the car as the battery is charged from a combustion engines.

An affordable, all electrical car might be interesting though for those that dont drive large distances. (affordable being the important part).

Double the price for an electric car

While I whole heartedly agree with you on second point (I bought a Nissan Leaf for this purpose), the first point is not correct. PHEV stands for plug-in hybrid electric vehicle, you can charge it from the mains for 20 odd miles of zero tailpipe emission range.

 

But, there are many people who bought a PHEV for cheaper BIK rate and never plug-in...........

[wyx087]

21 minutes ago, stepdavi said:

I think the phev is good for city driving. As in use pure electric in built up city's where air quality is poor then allow the hybrid to kick in on motorways/none built up areas. Pure electric cars are NOT green. Making them for a start. The batteries and the like. 

Then the charging up part. (Working at a power station I know this) most people will be charging overnight. Obviously no solar power over night and to be honest there is usually little wind power. Not taking into account interconnectors from Europe our nuclear fleet of power stations isn't enough to provide solely now. Coal / gas make up the considerable shortfall which will increase as overnight demand on national grid increases.

The odd time it is very windy and we see 10GW wind production there are numerous fossil stations running a minimum load ready to ramp up as soon as wind dies down.

So in my opinion pure elec isn't the way forward and certainly inst green. 

PHEV interesting or just straight forward hybrid with petrol driving 2 wheels for long distance, elec driving 2 wheels for city, and 4wd for fun. And the option to charge the batteries when using the petrol engine on cruising motorway speeds.

Only my opinion.

Vehicle to Grid and home battery system may be able to help in this respect. Smart meters are a good start, to be followed by smart EV chargers. We need to change our way of thinking, distributed batteries can take up the work coal/gas currently do. Power stations are no longer sole supplier.

https://electrek.co/2018/02/21/renault-smart-electric-island-electric-vehicles-v2g-energy-storage/

 

Before smart home batteries become norm, we can install these: https://electrek.co/2018/03/15/tesla-powerpack-project-uk  

 

Lifetime emission of a luxury EV can be lower than a supermini, depending on its source of power: http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/101642/us-report-finds-tesla-model-s-can-emit-more-lifetime-co2-than-a-petrol-supermini

[stepdavi]

I'm sure all of this will not affect our home electricity bills in any way. Very small scale experiment. Also just imagine you get home 1% battery plug your car in and have tea. Then you need to go out unexpectedly like a phone call to pick a loved one up etc but your smart charge thing has scheduled you in for a 2am charge. I'm just not convinced ev is the way to go myself. I'm 37 so not old school at all.

Again just my opinion.

Oh just a note on comparison of emissions mentioned.

Tessla model s (as tested) around £125000 with annual service of £450 with Tessla saying after 10 years the batteries will basically be ready for change at god knows what cost.

Mitsubishi mirage around £12k with servicing of £150 A year. And no need for a new petrol tank after 10 years.

 

Edited 22 March, 2018 by stepdavi

[SashaGrace]

The problem with PHEV and EV cars is charging them if you don’t have off street parking. I don’t, so those cars are out of the question. Mild hybrids are the answer for me, should ICE only cars become a thing of the past and nothing better takes over. Toyota have been slowly perfecting the HSD for 20 years. It’s about time other manufacturers kept up on that. Volvo will be revamping the range for next year with no more ICE only cars, meaning they’ll have to have a mild Hybrid. That’ll be interesting as will this headline in the papers, should it be close to the truth! 

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/diesel-saving-technology-could-make-it-market-two-years

[wyx087]

1 hour ago, stepdavi said:

I'm sure all of this will not affect our home electricity bills in any way. Very small scale experiment. Also just imagine you get home 1% battery plug your car in and have tea. Then you need to go out unexpectedly like a phone call to pick a loved one up etc but your smart charge thing has scheduled you in for a 2am charge. I'm just not convinced ev is the way to go myself. I'm 37 so not old school at all.

Again just my opinion.

It always starts with small scale experiment, the national grid wasn't built in a day  

 

In your case, you could tell the car to charge as soon as you get home if you know you'll go out in the evening, or visit a rapid charger on your way to pickup a loved one. Even with current relatively slow 50kW rapid charger, 10min, £1 will see you gain 25+ miles, enough for any local runs. There are 350kW rapid chargers being planned, 7 times faster than existing 50kW ones.

 

The expensive Model S is compared against a cheap supermini because supermini generates less emission due to its size, weight and simple construction. When the researcher compared with similarly expensive BMW 750 xDrive, Model S still produce less CO2 emission even in dirtiest US states. My reply is more on your EV not green comment.

 

I'm on the other end of spectrum. I'm completely convinced battery EV are the future. I've done my daily commute of 60 miles in my wife's first generation EV, I've managed to avoid petrol station for over a month. Both my wife and I love the way EV drives and its pre-heating capability to clear the ice before we get up. Currently, this first generation EV works well for us as our main car in 2 car family.  The diesel Octy is waiting to be replaced by Tesla Model 3 or similar range EV as soon as one becomes affordable.

 

I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion, just pointing out some perceptions of EV are no longer true. EV have came a long way in the last 5 years. End of the day, EV is a disruptor, similar to smart phones vs network operators' stronghold on phone ecosystem. So there will always be funding biased researches looking to spread false information to keep the status quo. 

Edited 22 March, 2018 by wyx087

[stepdavi]

I accept your points but don't agree. But if everyone did agree on everything life would be boring. Have a nice day.

[wyx087]

29 minutes ago, SashaGrace said:

The problem with PHEV and EV cars is charging them if you don’t have off street parking. I don’t, so those cars are out of the question. Mild hybrids are the answer for me, should ICE only cars become a thing of the past and nothing better takes over. Toyota have been slowly perfecting the HSD for 20 years. It’s about time other manufacturers kept up on that. Volvo will be revamping the range for next year with no more ICE only cars, meaning they’ll have to have a mild Hybrid. That’ll be interesting as will this headline in the papers, should it be close to the truth! 

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/diesel-saving-technology-could-make-it-market-two-years

Toyota HSD are actually what lead us to buying EV. I started by looking for bulletproof automatic gearbox that will last when driven in stop/start traffic. Only thing I can find are torque converters or Toyota HSD. So last year I started searching for Yaris or Auris hybrid, unfortunately they all start from £8000 sold privately. Then Nissan bought out "switch" scheme for second hand Leaf, we ended up with a £9000 top trim Leaf, plus main dealer goodies such as 2 free servicing.

 

Ideal powertrain I think would be plug-in hybrid using a diesel with that new NOX reduction technology. Low tailpipe CO2, zero emission in towns, great range on the motorway. Volvo did the V60 diesel PHEV which I really like, unfortunately it's too expensive for only 25 EV miles.

 

On mild-hybrid, VW are putting 48v systems into next generation MQB vehicles. This should fix iffy stop/start situations where engine cuts out just as you are about to slip into a gap. Still using DSG, which I have my doubts about, but it's a good start for electrification.

 

But problem with internal combustion engine vehicles is that the latest technology takes years to trickle down and reduction in overall transport CO2 emission is slow. If most cars on the street are EV, a 1% CO2 reduction in the national grid will mean 1% reduction across every EV on the street within a few days.

[KevC_Derby]

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

4 hours ago, stepdavi said:

I'm sure all of this will not affect our home electricity bills in any way. Very small scale experiment. Also just imagine you get home 1% battery plug your car in and have tea. Then you need to go out unexpectedly like a phone call to pick a loved one up etc but your smart charge thing has scheduled you in for a 2am charge. I'm just not convinced ev is the way to go myself. I'm 37 so not old school at all.

Again just my opinion.

Oh just a note on comparison of emissions mentioned.

Tessla model s (as tested) around £125000 with annual service of £450 with Tessla saying after 10 years the batteries will basically be ready for change at god knows what cost.

Mitsubishi mirage around £12k with servicing of £150 A year. And no need for a new petrol tank after 10 years.

 

It always starts with small scale experiment, the national grid wasn't built in a day  

 

In your case, you could tell the car to charge as soon as you get home if you know you'll go out in the evening, or visit a rapid charger on your way to pickup a loved one. Even with current relatively slow 50kW rapid charger, 10min, £1 will see you gain 25+ miles, enough for any local runs. There are 350kW rapid chargers being planned, 7 times faster than existing 50kW ones.

 

The expensive Model S is compared against a cheap supermini because supermini generates less emission due to its size, weight and simple construction. When the researcher compared with similarly expensive BMW 750 xDrive, Model S still produce less CO2 emission even in dirtiest US states. My reply is more on your EV not green comment.

 

I'm on the other end of spectrum. I'm completely convinced battery EV are the future. I've done my daily commute of 60 miles in my wife's first generation EV, I've managed to avoid petrol station for over a month. Both my wife and I love the way EV drives and its pre-heating capability to clear the ice before we get up. Currently, this first generation EV works well for us as our main car in 2 car family.  The diesel Octy is waiting to be replaced by Tesla Model 3 or similar range EV as soon as one becomes affordable.

 

I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion, just pointing out some perceptions of EV are no longer true. EV have came a long way in the last 5 years. End of the day, EV is a disruptor, similar to smart phones vs network operators' stronghold on phone ecosystem. So there will always be funding biased researches looking to spread false information to keep the status quo. 

 

The dealers need to get their act together, before I ordered the vRS I get drove the GTE, they'd only let me have it for an hour - how is anyone supposed to assess the lifestyle changes and suitability of the car in less than 24 hours? The excuse was it was a Salesmans car. A few Mini dealers did a 72hr test drive with the eMini but nowhere local and it was for the Clubman (I think).

We've elderly parents 30+ miles away - if something happened to one of them just after we'd got home from our 20 mile commute we might be able to get to them or not. Its not an ideal situation.

We've just found out that Derby City Council have reneged on their offer to contribute 50% of the cost of installing Charging points in our Car Park. Circa £3500.00, we reckon this is because they've been overly criticised that their unique and groundbreaking plan to reduce pollution on the A38 Corridor was criticised by DEFRA when they presented it -it was a Salvage scheme. Useless bunch!

 

[Ootohere]

We will see if it is the SEAT Leon that gets to be a plug in hybrid before a Skoda Octavia.

In the old days VW used to try stuff out on SEAT before the other brands, before just leaving SEAT to get the older tech.

VW are due Spain a lot of money from the grants for introducing green technology so time will tell.

[HotVRs]

8 hours ago, Gabbo said:

I dont really see the point on a PHEV, just makes everything heavier & increases the overall emissions of the car as the battery is charged from a combustion engines.

An affordable, all electrical car might be interesting though for those that dont drive large distances. (affordable being the important part).

Double the price for an electric car

 

However, for me the important sentance in the article is this one:
"The company’s direction is being shaped by forthcoming EU CO2 legislation, which will heavily fine car manufacturers that can’t get its fleet average to meet the more stringent emissions rules."

The is exactly the same reason why Aston Martin made the Cyget (Toyota iGo) to avoid paying a fine by "advertising" a car they will never sell.

 

These badly-planned european regulations are exactly why we have the "emissions scandal" now.

None of the European manufactuers are actually breaking EU emissions rules because they only define 1 emissions cycle profile with no requirement for emissions outside this specific profile.

 

Fines for manufaturers & they have clever people that will get round them.

Offer incentives to customers for buying one & the manufactuers will make what people want to buy.

 

It's for company car drivers. A PHEV has a BIK % of about 9 %, an Octavia 2.0 TDi is around 25% as is a 1.4 TSi. And those figures go up 3% every year. Currently any TDi or petrol is economic suicide for company car drivers and they are dumping them as fast as possible. The waiting lists for PHEV's are around 6 months long. Skoda really got to this party late.

Edited 22 March, 2018 by HotVRs

[Gerrycan]

17 hours ago, AwaoffSki said:

Once they sort out the batteries in the e-Golf and e-Up!,.  seemingly being done for the e-Citigo. 

 

Then the petrol engine for the Golf GTE.  because the C02 g/km figures of the 1.4 TSI engine car is a work of fiction.

So maybe a 1.0 TSI or 1.5 TSI with Gasoline Perticulate Filter and low Co2  g/km when using petrol and they will be ready to go.

 

Until then, close the order books, and forget the EU test results showing now, they are implausible in the Real World Testing.

Some would say cheat results.

I would contest your claim 'C02 g/km figures of the 1.4 TSI engine car is a work of fiction'.

Based on my experience with my manual 1.4tsi (103kw version) I'd say the test results are pretty accurate.

If I drive in circumstances better than the test profile then I will better the test results and the reverse is also true.

Of course I'm assuming that L/100km results are closely related to co2 output.

 

The tests themselves are open to all sorts of criticism.

[Gerrycan]

What a full EV illustrates is the large amount of energy that is required to move, the equivalent of an air conditioned small room with 5 seater lounge and entertainment  at relatively high speeds over a given distance. Most of the time it only has one occupant, just to rub salt into the wound.

A Tesla Model S has a 90kwh battery and a range of what 400 miles? You could run a normal household for nearly a week on that amount of energy.

 

I have got a modest 2500w output PV system on my roof (not ideally orientated) and on a good mid-summer Australian day it will produce about 20kwh. It would take  about 5 ideal, sunny days to charge said Tesla.

 

Charging Tesla batteries at hyper rates degrades their life 40 times faster than 'normal' rates.

 

Petrol/diesel is heavily taxed, domestic electricity is not currently (pun).

 

If we expect to continue with personal transport that we have today and yet reduce greenhouse gases then there will have to changes.

EV, hydrogen, carbon fuels from renewable resources will all have a part to play in the longer term.

 

In the meantime Hybrid vehicles will at least allow poor drivers to improve their consumption results as it will harvest their largely unnecessary braking.

Hybrid vehicles work very well in urban environments but less so on longer journeys the open road.

 

My random thoughts on a very complex subject.

 

[wyx087]

14 hours ago, KevC_Derby said:

We've elderly parents 30+ miles away - if something happened to one of them just after we'd got home from our 20 mile commute we might be able to get to them or not. Its not an ideal situation.

You can even cope with a first generation EV such as 24kWh Leaf. Total worst-case range 70 miles, 40 miles commute later, head out with 30 miles on the meter, stop for a quick 10min rapid charge on the way and you'll have comfortable range to even make it home. (or charge at their house?). It's not too different to having to visit petrol station if you were low on petrol. You can even set it to start charging on getting home, 1 hr with slowest charger you'll still get 10 miles into the car.

 

It's not for everyone, but driving a EV changed my way of thinking. I now think of parked cars as wasted resource. Parked EVs can be utilised by being on charge. In the future, also discharging to help smooth out the grid and get paid.

 

2 hours ago, Gerrycan said:

What a full EV illustrates is the large amount of energy that is required to move, the equivalent of an air conditioned small room with 5 seater lounge and entertainment  at relatively high speeds over a given distance. Most of the time it only has one occupant, just to rub salt into the wound.

Indeed, on average, it takes 300kW to move a car for 1 mile in less ideal conditions (heating for cold weather, denser air, bad aerodynamics on motorway). But cars like Hyundai Ioniq are taking a different approach. They are trying to make the most efficient EV, their air-con have a driver-only mode. Their car is very aerodynamic.

 

For example, a 28kWh Ioniq can do 100 miles on the motorway. But a 40kWh Leaf can only do 110 miles travelling at the same 70mph speed.

 

Let's not forget petrol/diesel have higher energy density, and the internal combustion engine is only 40% efficient at turning that already refined combustible energy to useful work.

[SWBoy]

26 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

In the future, also discharging to help smooth out the grid and get paid.

So you go out to drive off in what you THINK is a fully charged EV (because it's plugged in, right?) and find it's not fully charged at all (maybe even getting towards flat)?

 

That might help the National Grid, but it would be a real bummer for the owner

[wyx087]

33 minutes ago, SWBoy said:

So you go out to drive off in what you THINK is a fully charged EV (because it's plugged in, right?) and find it's not fully charged at all (maybe even getting towards flat)?

 

That might help the National Grid, but it would be a real bummer for the owner

You can set a minimal charge, and have a target charge state at a set time.

 

In the other topic:

On ‎18‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 17:51, wyx087 said:

Commercial V2G to help balance the grid in place of power plants:

 

 

Exactly as I had been saying. Very little battery degradation when doing this due to only using middle charge state. Best bit is that Copenhagen pays more during the evenings, very suitable for EV.

 

[stepdavi]

Thing is I know that if I need to go to London say (220 miles) any time day or night I don't have to consider the state of national grid to determine if my car has enough petrol (Also you'll find one of wind turbines only beneficial feature is as you say smoothing out grid, but that's more to do with reactive power as in Mvar). If people want electric cars like a £80k suv then that's fine. Certainly not my thing. Also trawling internet for pro elec car vids is not really helping you, there's a anti elec car video for every one you find.

[wyx087]

Technology is changing at a staggering rate. Affordable 200+ miles range EV will be made available soon (by 2020). It would be foolish to dismiss EV based on old habits and previous assumptions.

 

Often, anti-EV videos are based on outdated facts. Whereas pro-EV videos are based on newest technology, latest development.

 

Right now, at this moment in time, EV only make sense for a small number of people. But the future is bright

[carrock]

15 hours ago, HotVRs said:

 

It's for company car drivers. A PHEV has a BIK % of about 9 %, an Octavia 2.0 TDi is around 25% as is a 1.4 TSi. And those figures go up 3% every year. Currently any TDi or petrol is economic suicide for company car drivers and they are dumping them as fast as possible. The waiting lists for PHEV's are around 6 months long. Skoda really got to this party late.

 

Its even worse than that. My VRS diesel has a BIK of 28% from next month. And if it was a DSG it would be 30%. Next year it will be 31% and 33% for manual and DSG respectively . That's over £3500 a year tax paid, just on the car. ( I am a 40% tax payer.)

Edited 23 March, 2018 by carrock

[stepdavi]

Pro ev videos are idealistic and based on a unrealistic type of driving in prefect conditions.