My wife has a Citigo Greentech & I'd like to buy her a Hybrid Car of comparable size when she changes.

The cash is ready so, no issue there.

Looking at the market place there is only one vehicle that fits the requirements.

It being the Toyota Yaris Hybrid!(I've rejected the Suzuki Swift Mild Hybrid because it's a weird concept & in my opinion, not a true hybrid car - it's also expensive for the Technology if possesses).

So, going back to the Toyota Yaris Hybrid, it's about £6,000 more expensive than the Citigo 75PS Greentech, it no longer commands the Government reduced annual Road Tax & it only does about the same or maybe a little bit more MPG.

Oh, it also only does 1.2 miles on Electric Only traction.

So, what's the point of it???

I can't think of one compelling arguement to switch to Hybrid!!!

The car manufactures have got to work a lot harder on Hybrids before I'll be interested in buying one by:

1. Reducing the initial purchase cost.

2. Increasing their range on 'Electric Only' Traction.

3. Vastly increasing their overall MPG over their modern, efficient, Petrol Engined only cousins.

 

I want to embrace Modern, Clean Technology but there appears to be a long way to go yet!!!

The Suzuki's are offering the 'Light Hybrid' which gives a power boost which helps reduce petrol use, they are less expensive than a similarly equipped Mk3 Fabia Face Lift with a 1.0 TSI 3 cylinder engine. 

 

The issue for many that want small and economic and 2 pedals is that buying a New not Used UpMiiCitigo might be off the cards for a while, 

so it will be one built before June 1st 2018 if they want a 68 plate car or one in stock now on a 18 plate until VW Group have the WLTP Approval on small automatics. (Automated manuals)

Edited 15 August, 20187 yr by Offski

I've read up on the Suzuki Swift 'mild' hybrid.

It has the electrical generator which doubles up to give the Petrol Engine an extra push when required.

A novel idea! But not what most people should call a true hybrid.

To me it's a sort of midway hybrid, a sort of cheaper solution or part solution to a problem.

Why Suzuki don't put in a Bigger Electric Motor with a Bigger Battery Capacity & couple it to the same Technology they have is beyond me?

Oh, it's still got a Manual Gearbox!

And it only does about the same MPG as my wife's Citigo Greentech.

One more thing, it ain't cheap either!

It advertised as the 'cheaper solution' for a small Hybrid car.

It comes in at about £16,000/£17,000 which is approx the same price as a FULL Hybrid Toyota Yaris - and the Yaris has an Automatic Gearbox!!!!

 

3 minutes ago, Ronn said:

Why Suzuki don't put in a Bigger Electric Motor with a Bigger Battery Capacity & couple it to the same Technology they have is beyond me?

 

Cost.

 

You're already complaining it's too expensive!

 

Any particular reason why you want a hybrid?

 

If you want low cost, stick with your existing Citigo

If you want minimal/no petrol consumption buy something electric (i3 with range extender perhaps)

If you want an auto buy a Jag...

 

As far as I can tell, the real benefits of hybrids are to run on electric for a very short period at the start/end of a commute to reduce emissions in congested towns, and from what i can see, that wasn't part of your wish list

Ronn, 

 Why nobody including Suzuki call it a true Hybrid and call it 'light hybrid'. 

 

Suzuki do not need to do anything yet until the 'technology' is accepted by the buying public.

They can leave it to Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Hyundai / Kia, Mitsibushi etc  to have the R&D done.

 

I have driven Toyota Yaris Hybrids and like them, and actually been able to leave home go shopping and return home without the petrol engine running.

When i next drive out the road and not through the town it is or is not using petrol, and next time parked can do a few miles to the shops again.

 

Used Renault Zoe and Leaf are cheap, very cheap if you need a car for local runs. Kia Soul EV's not so cheap but for a while there were a few Ex Demos on offer and used / lease cars about. Plenty Renault Kangoo Vans are cheep.

e-Up! were dead cheap for a while, used prices were the same as a New Up!MiiPetrol.

Not that many around but 'Much Cheapness' can still be had.

 

Edited 15 August, 20187 yr by Offski

I don't buy that argument!

That Suzuki don't need to do anything & they can leave all the R&D up to the other manufacturers.

If Suzuki could sort out their own unique system of a hybrid with a more powerful Electric Motor & far greater Battery Capacity, - (the Technology did both already exists), and put it on their car, they could become the leaders in the Hybrid market & 'clean up' on car sales.

This area of the car market is 'gagging' for someone to come up with a viable solution.

Suzuki could be the winner!

They aren't daft enough to sit back & let someone else win.

Afterall, if that was the case they'd all be sitting back and doing nothing.

3 minutes ago, Ronn said:

I don't buy that argument!

That Suzuki don't need to do anything & they can leave all the R&D up to the other manufacturers.

 

Adding some hybrid tech allows them to achieve better results in official fuel consumption & emission tests as it will always start with some power in the battery and end the test with none.

 

VW owned 20% of Suzuki and were a partner until the night before the Emissions Scandal broke on Defeat Devices.  (coincidence!....)

Who lent them the money, was it Toyota whos share prices went up and who became again the biggest car manufacturer in the world?

http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-34275917 

 

So VW got the knowledge & the R&D from Suzuki of small capacity 3 cylinder and 2 cylinder petrol / petrol turbos, and hybrid R&D that Suzuki / Fiat had.

 

As it is the VW Hybrids being built in Hungary and South America were to be Diesel Hybrids, and the petrol hybrids in the VW / Audi's built in Hungary and elsewhere are being investigated now because of the risky materials they contain.

 

Suzuki are a winner as it is selling all they can produce of what they are producing, growing their market.

They used others diesels for decades and now are dropping those, so they are in a good place when they do go Electric, and proper Hybrids not just ones that are kidology on their range without powering up a ICE engine or generator.

 

India is very important to the Suzuki Corporation, as it is to the VW Group, especially as China might be getting peed off with the VW Group and cheating.

 

The VW  Group were going into partnership with Skoda & JLR/TATA in India, then JLR/TATA thought better of it.

Suzuki frets about India's electric shift despite sales boom _ Reuters.mhtml

Japan's Suzuki Motor profit jumps 68 percent in third quarter on strong India sales _ Reuters.mhtml

Edited 15 August, 20187 yr by Offski

The Suzuki Mild Hybrid doesn't return any better fuel consumption figures than my Wife's Citigo Greentech.

And the Suzuki is £4000 dearer to buy from new.

It's a no brainer that the Citigo Greentech makes better Ecconomic sense than the Suzuki Swift Mild Hybrid.

But these Up!MiiCitigo are a phenomenon, so why change then?

 

Have you driven one of these Suzuki Mild Hybrid 1.2's or are you comparing the Brochure / EU Test figures of the Suzuki against what fuel you put in the Citigo.

Maybe borrow a Suzuki Light Hybrid and see what fuel you use if you have not already.

I know what fuel the Suzuki Hybrid will use WITHOUT driving one.

I've read the official Suzuki company figures & I've read the Independent reviews!

The fuel consumption figures are OK but not good enough for a car that's promoted as a Hybrid!

Whether its a mild hybrid or a proper Hybrid.

The main issue is, your paying £5000 more than a Citigo Greentech for approx the same Fuel Ecconomy!

If we can't expect any more out of a hybrid than the latest highly efficient Petrol fuelled cars that manufacturers are offering, there's no point in the car buying public paying an extra £5000 for the same Fuel Efficiency.

 

Absolutely no point.

No point in many people buying the cars that they do, but it is good that there are choices. 

 

PS

There are lots less choice on 68 Plate highly efficient petrols coming as the WLTP has shown up that the testing was kidology, 

and the emissions were fiction on the road.

Not that the WLTP has much to do with 4,5,6,7 seaters actually with the seats full and the boot full and being driven, and Stop / Start maybe not functioning in stop / start traffic or cold weather, or hot weather with the A/C on, or load on the battery.

http://skoda.co.uk/pages/fuel-consumption-statement.aspx 

 

I can get the same fuel consumption of a Citigo but using Diesel & AdBlue and with 7 seats available and some luggage space.

The Small non Turbo Petrols need cherished while they are still available.

The New MPI 3 Cylinder 999cc Faba Mk3 Facelifts have higher official C02 g/km emissions than the 1.0 TSI 999cc Mk3 Facelifts.

Edited 15 August, 20187 yr by Offski

Whole point of Hybrid cars & Electric cars is to ween the car buying public off fossil fuel cars!

Now, it's plain to see that Electric Cars still have some work to do on Battery Technology to increase their range between charges.

Apart from the range issue, Electric Cars are now sorted!

So, we have some way to go with them yet!

But Hybrid Cars are a solution in the interim if manufactures increase the capacity of their Batteries to the same as already exists in Electric Cars!

That's why the UK Government have told Car Manufacturers that they must increase the range that Hybrids do on Electric Only Power.

It sounds like common sense to me.

Hybrids are not suppose to be an alternative to Petrol Only Cars, they are suppose to REPLACE them.

Long way to go.

But as for those that have them, many do not have a long way to go and a EV , Hybrid or Light Hybrid does the job.

Where you get Free Parking, or access, or charging then that can be enough for many.

Horses for courses, and your horse seems to just need to be a Citigo.

 

Plenty with Taxi's & Private Hire Cars and Delivery vans are now opting for EV's and that is a start.

At least now in Scotland the charging network is improving which is nice.

 

The UK Government gave their date for the end of Petrol & Diesel cars being sold in the UK and Scotlands Government for in Scotland, 

but lots of water will go through the Hydro dams before that.

 

Lots and wind & water to pass through politicians before the end of ICE engine vehicles in the UK.

 

The UK government have told Manufacturer Jack Sh!t really, they are more bothered about staying as in Government.

When Philip Hammond MP stops letting Manufacturers take the pith with the vehicles getting lower VED because of being 'Hybrids' with no range really on battery power and no ICE running then that will not just be some, leak' to some papers from a Government source.

Edited 15 August, 20187 yr by Offski

Well, I'm backing the UK Governments view on this issue.

Car Manufactures should be forced to increase the Electric Only range on the Hybrids that they sell.

And with legislation to back it up!

It's the only way we are going to get rapid progress to a World where we a far less dependent on Fossil Fuels in the short to medium term.

...And how do we produce the "Fuel" For these so-called electric/hybrid vehicles? 

The only economic way is via nuclear power stations and they are only clean for a hundred years or less and then, downright filthy!

I think Gyp hit the nail on the head when he stated stick with the Citygo! it is already built and in use. To build and run a new car in its-self is not eco-friendly.

We, do not produce it but the energy producers do,  and not from coal,  and not from gas or oil soon,  other than that electricity they produce to be able to be producing petrolchemucals and fossil fuels.   So producing electricity with wind, water and sun is easy. Storing it is not,  it needs stored in hydro,  or batteries or converted to hydrogen.   Just as well the technology to store renewables generated electricity us coming on, I vehicle, homes and workplaces. 

Oil needed to produce vehicles and plastics,   mining needed for minerals and metals to produce vehicles and batteries,  and power stations and wind turbines,  and solar farms.  Oil needed to transport all these batteries for decades to come, and then the heavy plant that produces the metals, minerals and fossil fuels.   Wind turbines now generate electricity for oil rigs,  and there have been electric trains and trams for decades,  now China going all electric with buses.  But then China is helping France and the UK build more nuclear.  Also selling steel for wind turbines. 

I am not yet sure the technology is mainstream enough for small hybrids yet.

 

It costs £3000+ extra which in a small car will take a very long while to recover through fuel savings, obviously in a bigger vehicle the fuel savings will be more, so breakeven period is lower.

Compared to a modern efficient petrol engine, the savings probably going to take about 100,000 miles to recover (from 45mpg to 55 mpg at £1.30 per litre)

Also very few small cars are used for long journeys, often used as a second car for local journeys, so not much of a market.

 

There might be an advantage if you live in a City with incentives, or where non hybrid/electric cars are restricted, but such carrot and stick are very rare in UK

Completely different in say Norway, where electric cars are allowed in bus lanes, and hydro electric is plentiful

 

I suspect more mild hybrids will start to appear over next 2-3 years, but in meantime, buy an electric citigo or electric smart (and get yourself solar panels and a storage device like a Tesla powerwall if you really worried about a bit of fossil fuel usage, as most UK electricity comes from fossil fuels)

 

 

We all have to embrace new technology!

Lots of the UK,s electricity in the national grid comes from fossil fuel power stations and when not they are paid anyway to not generate,  as are the wind and solar generators.   No place to store the electricity as it is unless exported to Norway to be stored using hydro storage.  This is why off peak use and storage is essential in the UK.  As is the manufacturing of hydrogen and hydrogen vehicles.   It's not rocket science or even rocket fuel,  just common sense and economic sense.   Luckily Scotland has the ability to produce renewables and fossil fuels as the nuclear power generation is almost ready to shut down. Past its sell by date by decades now.

Edited 15 August, 20187 yr by Offski

Lots of slagging off of the Swift Hybrid I see...

 

I have an SZ5 110bhp 1.0 3cyl Boosterjet SHVS mild Hybrid and there really is no comparison to a Mii / Citygo / Up! or Aygo...   it is a far better car in my experience thus far (I've had it just over a month).  I paid nowhere near the full price for it with just 400 miles on the clock and significantly less than a similarly spec'd car from other manufacturers.  As for the mild hybrid element - it does work but it is mild and is more to enhance the driving than the economy, it's a great little car to drive, is very responsive to drive and I'm still getting about 52 - 53mpg round town regardless of whether I thrash it.

 

But each to their own Ronn - you clearly don't like the Swift but you'd be missing out.

No, No, No, skomaz,

I never said 'I didn't like the Swift Mild Hybrid & I didn't 'Slag it Off'

What I said is 'its not a true Hybrid in the accepted sense of the word' - which, after reading your text, you concur.

And what I said was 'I can't see the point in me paying an extra £5000 extra above the Citigo Greentech because it does approx the same MPG as the Citigo' - which you also testify in your text!

Obviously, the Swift Hybrid is a little bigger than the Citigo (I guess), and is a lot more sporty than the Citigo with it's Turbo Engine.

Is that OK?

Have I put the record straight?

Suit yourself Ronn - and apologies if I've misunderstood but that's not how your posts came across...   I read things like 'weird', 'expensive for the technology', 'pointless'...

 

Anyhow you are right - it is a mild hybrid and can't run on electric power alone, just as many other manufacturers produce.

 

Spec a Citigo up to a similar level as a Swift SZ5 and your up to about £14k (so only about £1.5k different) and the Swift will still have more tech and equipment, more space, be better to drive, have much more power etc...   So you're comparing apples and pears, but there you go...

The value of hybrid technology for improving consumption can be debated endlessly because most of what people saying above is quite correct even when they seem polar opposite views.

I'll define hybrid as those with limited range on battery of say a maximum of 2 kilometres

 

For me the big selling point of hybrid technology is the possibility of retrieving energy from braking as in F1 applications. Standard brake systems use very low tech to convert kinetic energy to heat and it makes much more sense to recover, store and reuse that energy.

Using that logic, Hybrids will work best for those who use their brakes a lot, either because of their driving technique, or driving in town and/or hilly areas.

Hybrid tech is much less effective on relatively flat open roads in fact the additional weight of the system may well make it worse than a comparable ICE only system.

 

I think that a hybrid option should be seriously considered but it will depend very much on initial costs and the individuals usual driving environment whether this is actually the best option.

Personally I would be more interested in a small rechargeable hybrid or PHEV with say 40km battery range than a mild hybrid or EV for our current driving habits especially where I am in Adelaide Australia.

However that will not happen due our (Australian) current relatively low fuel costs, high electricity costs, high PHEV purchase costs. low annual mileage and low government financial incentives. Of course if one or more of those factors change then …… 

 

Edited 16 August, 20187 yr by Gerrycan