EV real world range and cost to charge

[Paws4Thot]

2 hours ago, Winston_Woof said:

I guess you haven't figured out yet that all those individual pieces of plastic in your wallet plus the tracking of your mobile phone plus that number on the vehicles you drive  plus the list of websites that you visit , the purchases you make on Amazon can all be linked together relationally  to fulfill Big Brothers wet dreams already .

As for believing any political party that's irrelevant although interesting example as 15 years or so I was a "victim" of identity theft/fraud.

Having an ID card simply makes it easier to proof in a standardised manner  that this is me should you need too (Side note as it happens I always have my Driving licence with me when I go out) .

Or, in short, "no I haven't".

[wyx087]

12 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

They believe they charge for "free" from a solar array.

You are telling me this isn't charging for free from solar array?

 

edit: for info: the line is battery charge level, the filled lines are solar generation and where it went.

 

 

Cost of solar: £7000 about 9 years ago.

Return on investment: about 10 years mark, accounting for inflation.

Effective cost of solar from after ROI: free.

 

12 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

How much do they lose by not getting the "feed in tariff" or "Smart export credits" when they charge the car for the KWs they take, it's a choice but nothing comes free.

Feed in tariff is based on generation, not export. So self-consumed as much as possible. Charge car or don't charge, it doesn't make any difference to the payment.

Edited 21 April by wyx087

[Gaz]

47 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

You are telling me this isn't charging for free from solar array?

 

My modest solar array hasn't been installed for a year yet, so I'm still learning.  At this point in the year, my battery and immersion are at 100% by 10:30am.  After that I'm exporting 3.4-3.6kwh if sunny/bright (1.4 on a dull day).  I've scope to increase the array and/or my battery.

 

I've of course got the RoI to factor in.  But as we consider coming down to one car (from two), it's getting to a point where I'm thinking it's daft not to come down to one ICE car (i.e. my GTI), but then also have a cheap EV for the local stuff, as our first foray into the world of EV.  I need to look into whether it's better to export the leccy, or put it into an EV.

 

I'm still habitually checking the gas boiler because it's not coming on.  It's fine, just the immersion tank doesn't need it, so there's a gas saving too.

 

Gaz

 

[wyx087]

24 minutes ago, Gaz said:

I need to look into whether it's better to export the leccy, or put it into an EV.

Without FIT (~2016 or earlier installs, based on generation), you'd be on SEG (smart export guarantee, based on your export). You should be getting 10-15p/kWh?

 

It would make more financial sense to export as much as possible and charge up your battery/EV at as cheap rate as possible. Provided export pays more than cheapest import.

For example, Intelligent Octopus Go is 7.5p/kWh import overnight and 15p/kWh SEG. So doesn't make financial sense to self consume because each kWh you self-consume is effectively 15p.

 

Here are the best EV tariff and SEG tariff from different suppliers: https://www.speakev.com/threads/list-of-ev-tariff-for-2-5p-mile-motoring.179786/

 

Also got to remember unlike my V2H bi-dir charger, where it basically behaves like a home battery, you will need to generate consistently more than 1.4 kW in excess to charge EV using solar divert feature in "standard" EV charge points.

That is due to charging standards. https://myenergi.info/minimum-charge-current-need-to-allow-user-to-set-t-t5646.html

For my 2.9 kWp E-W install, EV charge point's solar divert feature doesn't make sense. I have this capability in my other "standard" charge point but it doesn't work due to low amount of excess.

 

I managed to get around the 6 A limitation by using Tesla API, when Leaf isn't at home: https://www.speakev.com/threads/charging-off-excess-solar-using-dumb-charger-and-home-assistant.177813/#post-3441721

[Winston_Woof]

One key thing to remember. 
 

more properties in the Uk can get Solar than have dedicated parking where they can have home chargers installed. 
 

[Stonekeeper]

14 hours ago, wyx087 said:

You are telling me this isn't charging for free from solar array?

 

 

Cost of solar: £7000 about 9 years ago.

Return on investment: about 10 years mark, accounting for inflation.

Effective cost of solar from after ROI: free.

 

Feed in tariff is based on generation, not export. So self-consumed as much as possible. Charge car or don't charge, it doesn't make any difference to the payment.

 

On 21/04/2024 at 08:01, Stonekeeper said:

 

 

 

They believe they charge for "free" from a solar array.

 

How much do they lose by not getting the "feed in tariff" or "Smart export credits" when they charge the car for the KWs they take, it's a choice but nothing comes free.

 

 

 

 

13 hours ago, wyx087 said:

So doesn't make financial sense to self consume because each kWh you self-consume is effectively 15p.

 

 

 

[Ootohere]

When i got back after 6 miles i had gone from 100% to 95%.   Plugged in the 3 pin cable and went 95% to 100 % in 40 minutes.  That took 3 kWh @ 22 pence.  66 pence for 6 miles.

 

Sitting watching Fifth Gear Recharge.   The have the Kia EV 6 GT going 1,000 miles in 24 hours.

They said they had 13% left and 15 km range.

 

Well that does not make sense. 

When a 30kWh Battery has near 1 mile for each 1%.   !00% = 100 miles.

 

So with a battery more than double the size, 77.4 kWh how could 13% only have a range of 15 km / 9.3 miles.

 

13% should be 2 1/2 times more energy in their battery should it not?

 

Fifth Gear Recharge on Quest +1 will be starting in 5 minutes.

 

EDIT.

They have 4 % and 17 miles at the end.   More like it. 

 

Left with 3%.   Well that is not an issue with a 77 kWh battery.  11 km. 

But that is only just under 7 miles.

 

If i had 3% i would be touching cloth.

 

Edited 22 April by Rooted

[Winston_Woof]

Just now, Rooted said:

When i got back after 6 miles i had gone from 100% to 95%.   Plugged in the 3 pin cable and went 95% to 100 % in 40 minutes.  That took 3 kWh @ 22 pence.  66 pence for 6 miles.

 

Sitting watching Fifth Gear Recharge.   The have the Kia EV 6 GT going 1,000 miles in 24 hours.

They said they had 13% left and 15 km range.

 

Well that does not make sense. 

When a 30kWh Battery has near 1 mile for each 1%.   !00% = 100 miles.

 

So with a battery more than double the size, 77.4 kWh how could 13% only have a range of 15 km / 9.3 miles.

 

13% should be 2 1/2 times more energy in their battery should it not?

you haven't taken into account EV math.

you know the one where the capacity reported isn't the real capacity and various corrections are made to "normalise" the reported figures ;o)

[Ootohere]

^^^ You obviously never followed my Corsa electric charging & now my Mini and times and capacities.

Some people know the cost of every vehicles fuelling and trips and weather conditions, seasons and years. 

 

I know exactly how much energy i put in, the cost of every penny worth of energy. 

The cost of things and the value of them.  & charging speeds.

 

The reason being it is my money & i do the miles not calculate them and get it wrong like reviewers. 

Edited 22 April by Rooted

[wyx087]

On 21/04/2024 at 08:01, Stonekeeper said:

How much do they lose by not getting the "feed in tariff" or "Smart export credits" when they charge the car for the KWs they take, it's a choice but nothing comes free.

Let me explain again, FIT is based on generation. Self-consuming has no associated cost.

 

If you want to deliberately base your understanding on snippets of truth, it's your choice. But you are completely wrong here with regard to FIT.

[Luckypants]

I think the cost of charging from solar is a point of view type of argument. On the one hand if I put a solar kWh in my car I don't get paid 15p export, but on the other hand I save around 20p by not paying for it from the grid. Which view is right, am I saving 20p or losing 15p? I like to think I save 15p off the 20p (5p net cost) for every kWh that my car gets from solar. This is how I account for that solar energy on my car cost spreadsheet. I've kept track of every kWh I've put in the car, so I don't delude myself over what going EV has cost me. Its working out about even costs with previous diesel car including monthly finance payments - EV lower running costs offset by higher finance payments.

Finally, just want to say that getting solar PV was not based on having an EV but on a desire to reduce my emissions and reduce my bills in retirement (a few years off yet). We have a plan to make our house as cheap to run as possible to help eek out the retirement funds.

Edited 22 April by Luckypants
readability

[wyx087]

1 hour ago, Luckypants said:

I think the cost of charging from solar is a point of view type of argument. On the one hand if I put a solar kWh in my car I don't get paid 15p export, but on the other hand I save around 20p by not paying for it from the grid. Which view is right, am I saving 20p or losing 15p? I like to think I save 15p off the 20p (5p net cost) for every kWh that my car gets from solar.

But if your import is 7.5p/kWh overnight on EV tariffs?

 

 

[Luckypants]

Well mine is not. Long story mentioned many times before, my smart meter does not work (and DCC / Government stink.) I'm on the daily rate Tracker tariff as a courtesy from Octopus until smart meter coverage is fixed enabled in my area. Tracker has been averaging just below 20p/kWh

If I ever get to the nirvana of a working smart meter the economics change in my favour. Until then the discussion is moot for me. I was giving my two penn'orth on the discussion as it stood.

Edited 23 April by Luckypants

[lol-lol]

14 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

But if your import is 7.5p/kWh overnight on EV tariffs?

 

 

 

There is a 20 % loss in uploading grid or solar to batteries and then deploying it plus the degradation of the battery pack which if lithium ion rather than lithium iron phosphate could be considerable.

 

It has got to be a good margin to tempt me.

 

[wyx087]

Ah yes, if not on EV tariff, self consuming net a saving of 5-15p currently, depend on tariffs.

 

If charging without solar over night: 20p cost. But off-set by -15p solar export payment = 5p net cost for charging EV up to solar generation amount.

If charging via solar divert method: -5p cost (net saving) because you wouldn't need to pay that 5p/kWh.

 

So instead of my 7.5p saving for EV tariff + FIT solar. You are saving 5p/kWh using solar divert.

[Stonekeeper]

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Let me explain again, FIT is based on generation. Self-consuming has no associated cost.

 

If you want to deliberately base your understanding on snippets of truth, it's your choice. But you are completely wrong here with regard to FIT.

 

The original FIT scheme had two payments, generation and export. If you use it yourself you don't get the export payment surely?

 

It's also important that people thinking of going down this road of installing Solar panel will not get the same benefits of those who got them before the FIT scheme ended.

 

https://www.comparethemarket.com/energy/content/feed-in-energy-tariffs/

[wyx087]

1 hour ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

The original FIT scheme had two payments, generation and export. If you use it yourself you don't get the export payment surely?

 

It's also important that people thinking of going down this road of installing Solar panel will not get the same benefits of those who got them before the FIT scheme ended.

 

https://www.comparethemarket.com/energy/content/feed-in-energy-tariffs/

Indeed there's 2 elements to FIT payment: generation and export. But don't always assume what you read is 100% correct, because websites like those usually take shortcuts to describe a complex system.

 

All people on FIT start off with deemed export because it predates smart meters, older non-smart meter cannot measure export. Deemed export means for each kWh generated, they deem 50% export regardless of how much is self-consumed. Meaning use as much as possible without consequence for people on FIT.

 

For example, my statement for gloomy autumn/winter days. Effectively it's ~20p/kWh based on generation for me regardless of how much I use, since V2H install, I consistently self-consume over 95%.

 

Then there's higher paying SEG (smart export guarantee). People on FIT can move the export part to SEG (one way) to get better rates such as 15p from Octopus, currently. FIT still pays generation part whereas newer installs only get paid SEG.

 

But today's solar PV installs are much cheaper and generate more. So overall ROI is said to be similar. My neighbour also installed 10 panels, but got 4 kWp system (my is 2.9 kWp) installed for just £4000.

 

Coming back to your view that there's associated cost, it's only true for newer installs as you rightly pointed out. But for FIT, it depends, usually it is completely free.

[lol-lol]

Solar panels, like EV traction batteries are falling rapidly in cost.

Same for home batteries.

 

I expect to pay less than 50p per watt of solar panel now, down by a half in a couple of years.

 

Home batteries now less about 30p per watt hour of storage.

 

This whilst inflation was over 10% last year and is still about 4% this year.

 

True fall in cost of renewable and storage is staggeringly cheap hence countries like Germany are rapidly becoming more renewable than hydrocarbon, Denmark, Norway already are.

 

[Ootohere]

There is a looking crisis in the UK.  Already obesity and Type 2 Diabetics.  

The Governments are not helping with the drive to EV,s.

 

So many with EV,s seem to think Public Charging involves eating and drinking and that cost at fast food places.

There are chargers at fitness centres and they are also expensive but Rapid Charging at Fitness Centres might not suit Centre Users as you might be training for an hour and the car does not need that long, and after all you will spend a lot of money if you need a big battery car filled up at 75 pence a kWh or more. 

 

More Public Charging Hubs & Park & Rides with Bike hire at them are needed. 

Maybe using Hire Bikes and parking hubs from Failed City Bike Hiring which has been common around the UK.

Millions spent on bikes people never used because the costs were ridiculous.

 

Going walking is another thing EV drivers might want to do if they have 40-60 minutes to spend charging the car.

Not to go walk to some eatery though. 

Or go have a 5 mile walk round a Golf Course hitting a ball while people are needing to get their car charged and on with the day.

 

 

 

Money not a problem for many though when they do want Luxury vehicles, big battery cars etc. 

Maybe they have a wind turbine or 3 as part of their pension plan. 

 

 

 

 

Edited 25 April by Rooted

[lol-lol]

I think there is an element of location disadvantage ie if you live in the centre of UK then lots of chargers and I can generally go most places in the UK pass or use lots of chargers that are in the Midlands and either get home using mainly home charger or at worse have a small splash and dash or zap and zoom I suppose it might be called.

 

It needs targeting and encouragement and SW England is a case in point, year or so very few chargers but now lots ie Exeter services, Salmons leap at Buckfast, Cornwall service and many other sites in the SW of England. 

 

With longer and longer range EVs being released every month it must be worrying for EV charging companies, TESLA, as usual, is the only one to  really get it right, especially with the V4 chargers.  EV drivers know they are cheaper than Gridserve and will use them in preference.  Best of all get a TESLA if one can stand/adapt to the car controls issues.

 

I presume one can get the new Model 3 performance, 0-60 in 2.9s, quicker than Mclarens, on salary sacrifice, yes £500 a month or so, still a bargain IMO, though I will probably go for Standard one at sub £40K RRP which is not around £350 a month with super cheap running cost for energy and servicing, say £400 all in for business use, and settle for 0-60 in 5.9s.   

[Ootohere]

It is an odd one with the Taycan guy  in the vid.

PodPoint at the house not working but does not get another 7 kW AC charger installed to charge the car in 10-11 hours or half the battery in 5-6 hours, 

he gets a 3 pin AC Cable. 

 

EV Charger required to work 99% of the time.   Well the ones in Scotland mess that up if it is UK wide.  Actually BP Pulse UK wide must with their reliability or lack of.

[domhnall]

On 21/04/2024 at 08:01, Stonekeeper said:

 

Don't mis-understand me. I would love a BEV and when one comes along, that can meet my need, that i can afford, i am in.

 

I don't class all EV owners as Evangilists. Some like yourself appear honest about it all.

 

But the ones with the means to pay it forward and invest thousands of pounds in new technology and solar this and Battery storage that wind me up.

 

They refuse to add the cost of their infrastructure into the cost.

 

They believe they charge for "free" from a solar array.

 

How much do they lose by not getting the "feed in tariff" or "Smart export credits" when they charge the car for the KWs they take, it's a choice but nothing comes free.

 

To tie all my bugbears into one post why don't we have charging for free at a  hub powered by Cyclists that ignore the Highway code rules, on Static bikes. 😉

 

My solar was installed 15 years ago and is long since paid off and is now pure profit. My battery is on a zero percent government loan. The combination of the two mean that even in the depths of winter when it was minus 11 the total cost of home energy plus car fuel was £123 for the month. No one said it's free but it's a hell of a lot cheaper than the flammable liquid I used to use. 🤷

[lol-lol]

Damn my little Zoe, 205 mile trip, still couple of dozen miles still on range meter, trying to make it run lower for the last tens of miles as I have never seen the infamous tortoise/turtle. 

Got it down to 9%, about 23 miles left, but still no sign of it, only a suggestion about charging when I got to home.  No thanks, I will wait a few hours for the 9p per kWh lecky and add 50 plus miles of range.  Arkana sitting there with plenty of range if the daughter in Wales goes in to labour.    

Limited Performance Warning Light -  The icon of the tortoise illuminating on the dashboard indicates that the vehicle has been placed into limited performance mode

Edited Tuesday at 16:49 by lol-lol

[wyx087]

I've ran the Leaf down to 2% and no not seen its tortoise mode. They don't usually come this early, need to be beyond 0% for good batteries. They should only come before 0% if battery balance is bad.

 

The Norway Bjorn EV youtube channel have done a lot of testing for running cars below 0%. Good EV's should drive normally all the way to 0%, with clearly displayed linear power reduction after that.

[lol-lol]

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

I've ran the Leaf down to 2% and no not seen its tortoise mode. They don't usually come this early, need to be beyond 0% for good batteries. They should only come before 0% if battery balance is bad.

 

The Norway Bjorn EV youtube channel have done a lot of testing for running cars below 0%. Good EV's should drive normally all the way to 0%, with clearly displayed linear power reduction after that.

 

Zoe ZE50 got 229 miles in the test below, best of all small cars, and that was without Matt Watson of Carwow really trying to be conservative, with a small "c". 

Bjorn, I have seen, done loads of test.  He carries a Ecoflow max, with additional battery so he has about 3 kwh he can charge from these batteries in the boot to give him another 10 or 15 kms via his granny cable he carries.  I have tried this with my Allpower S2000 Pro, which can also run at 2400 watts, but the Zoe is very fussy about the quality of earthing during charging so it has not started a charge via the S2000, don't think I can get extra side battery for the S2000. Have got a Bluettti EB180 which has a 1.8 kwh battery but can only output at 1 kw so not a great support for the S2000 but the S2000 will through charge I think ie power the 2.4 kW granny charger and accept 500 W in via the 8 mm barrel plus uo to 600 W via the XT60 as well, bit of a faff so looking to get a monster R4000, when the price is right, which can be charged from EV charging stations apparently !       

Honda was worse, perhaps they should ahve given buyers a discounted Honda generator ?