Brake Fade

[themanwithnoaim]

4 hours ago, Stuart-h said:

Personelly I'd take a look at race brakes. Something like ebc yellow stuff pads and groved discs all round. It'll help!

Also I'd get the brake fluid changed at the same time as the discs and pads.

Really !!!!

 

You must have read my mind

 

 

1 hour ago, flybynite said:

 

Personally I find race brakes useless on the road for daily use. They are not as good as road brakes until they are up to temperature. Keeping heat in race pads on the road is a problem you don't need. Grooves just generate noise and dust and leave less surface for braking. Road brakes for road, race brakes for track

Well we'll have to agree to differ

 

Yellow stuff are road pads that can handle race temperatures, high initial bite.

 

The noise I find helpful to judge just how close to the ABS kicking in I am. On the pluse side, they make no noise whatsoever under normal driving when the family are in the car although, SWMBO has commented that the new brakes do stop the car quicker.

 

1 hour ago, flybynite said:

I have not yet found the limit of ATE road pads and plain ATE or Brembo disks. Cheap, quiet, and full braking from cold. 

Think we'll have agree to differing driving styles also!!!

[nidza]

15 hours ago, Stuart-h said:

Personelly I'd take a look at race brakes. Something like ebc yellow stuff pads and groved discs all round. It'll help!

Also I'd get the brake fluid changed at the same time as the discs and pads.

 

Always be careful when recommending any race part for the car.

 

Usually race performance parts comes with a price, and not only in money, but also with the possible poor performance when not used under high stress.

 

It is always a bargain and a compromise, with a daily car. For example, race pads may actually brake worst the stock, when not on working temperature, same as discs, same as tires... Always be realistic what are 99% of your needs. If you're driving like you stole it every day, then your choice of the ride is a mistake at the first place.

 

I have never experienced poor braking of any Škoda car, actually on the contrary. It is also better if the brake pedal isn't as sharp, as you will have better feedback. If we are referring to the race cars, usually they don't have sharp light brakes, but you need quite a heavy right foot, as all that comes with a reason.

 

[logiclee]

On ‎29‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 21:01, MC Bodge said:

My previous Mondeo estate had quite powerful, fade-resistant brakes of the the same spec throughout the range, apparently.

 

 

 

Yep it used to be a Ford thing although not so much now.

 

The 1.6 Mondeo had the same brakes as the 3.0V6.

[flybynite]

10 hours ago, themanwithnoaim said:

Yellow stuff are road pads that can handle race temperatures, high initial bite.

 

We did some time on brake rollers with various setups including EBC stuff a while back. Nothing really convinced me. The only competition pad that was good when cold was one of the 'project mu' pads. Can't justify those prices unless I'm about to win something big on track. ATE road compound did very well, Its why I use them.

 

10 hours ago, themanwithnoaim said:

Think we'll have agree to differing driving styles also!!!

 

These occasionally get driven under an exemption, The brakes sometimes get a workout when they do, and from cold.

 

11 hours ago, themanwithnoaim said:

SWMBO has commented that the new brakes do stop the car quicker.

Then who am I to argue  

 

10 hours ago, themanwithnoaim said:

 

They look very pretty though 

[cheezemonkhai]

If you want to change pads and look towards race pads, make sure they are EC R90, as I seem to remember any that are not are not road legal.

 

This is for things such as poor cold braking.

 

i seem to remember Ebac red was r90 approved a few years back when I used them, but it’s important to check before you buy for road use.

 

[MC Bodge]

2 hours ago, nidza said:

 

Always be careful when recommending any race part for the car.

 

Usually race performance parts comes with a price, and not only in money, but also with the possible poor performance when not used under high stress.

 

It is always a bargain and a compromise, with a daily car. For example, race pads may actually brake worst the stock, when not on working temperature, same as discs, same as tires... Always be realistic what are 99% of your needs. If you're driving like you stole it every day, then your choice of the ride is a mistake at the first place.

 

I have never experienced poor braking of any Škoda car, actually on the contrary. It is also better if the brake pedal isn't as sharp, as you will have better feedback. If we are referring to the race cars, usually they don't have sharp light brakes, but you need quite a heavy right foot, as all that comes with a reason.

 

I agree that performance for normal road driving is more important than constant hard use performance.

 

Pads that work well cold and work for occasional hard use is my requirement. 

 

A firm, progressive brake pedal is the ideal.

Spongy is not good.

 

Yes, too sharp makes smooth heel/toe more challenging, although it can be done. 

-The Octavia benefits from a throttle pedal extension/raise for this too. 

 

 

[MC Bodge]

2 hours ago, logiclee said:

 

Yep it used to be a Ford thing although not so much now.

 

The 1.6 Mondeo had the same brakes as the 3.0V6.

It seems sensible, given that the cars are all the same size and approximate mass. 

 

 

[logiclee]

36 minutes ago, MC Bodge said:

It seems sensible, given that the cars are all the same size and approximate mass. 

 

 

 

Although on the autobahn the 3.0V6 has the potential to be braking from 155mph where the 1.6 90PS would struggle to get to three figures.  That's a massive difference in inertia and braking effort required.

[MC Bodge]

32 minutes ago, logiclee said:

 

Although on the autobahn the 3.0V6 has the potential to be braking from 155mph where the 1.6 90PS would struggle to get to three figures.  That's a massive difference in inertia and braking effort required.

There is that. A fully laden 2.0TDCi estate at 130mph took a bit of stopping too, but the brakes worked well. The Mk1 Octavia vRS slowed well from 145mph.

 

Slowing distances are vastly longer from 120+, though. 

 

Very few cars are used like that outside of Germany, I suppose. 

 

-My cars have had far, far more of a workout over there than they ever get here, given the opportunity for long periods of full throttle.

 

....and trucks pulling out on you ahead.... 

 

The 1.4 TSI should do about 135mph. It would be interesting to try a couple of hard stops from that speed to see how well the brakes cope. 

 

 

Edited 31 May, 2019 by MC Bodge

[logiclee]

7 minutes ago, MC Bodge said:

There is that. A fully laden 2.0TDCi at 130mph took a bit of stopping too. Very few cars are used like that outside of Germany, I suppose. 

 

My cars have had far, far more of a workout over there than they ever get here, given the opportunity for long periods of full throttle.

 

....and trucks pulling out on you ahead.... 

 

I work for a German employer, I have a biannual trip over.

 

My last Mondeo was quick but 16mpg on the Autobahn wasn't great.

 

 

[MC Bodge]

On 29/05/2019 at 20:08, flybynite said:

 

I guess you have 288f/255r mm brakes on that so a swap onto 312f/272r mm would be sensible without going OTT. Very easy bolt on. Big fan of 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' but if you are seeing a specific problem, sensible thing to fix it.

 

Is the 312mm front just a case of fitting bigger discs and different caliper carriers with the same calipers?

[flybynite]

1 hour ago, MC Bodge said:

Is the 312mm front just a case of fitting bigger discs and different caliper carriers with the same calipers?

 

Not sure, the calipers are different (but similar) part numbers. Pads are often listed for both 288 and 312 brakes but doesn't mean the caliper they fit is not a different radius. Also not sure whether you would have 288/255 or 276/253 both seem to be listed for the smaller Octy 3

 

I would generally swap the set. 312/272 sets are easy to come across second hand from people upgrading Mk7 GTis etc. If the calipers are the same then you have some spare fronts, either to sell or keep as spare.

 

I have a set here but I was hanging on to them as they are almost new and I'm unlikely to get a set as good without buying new. Useful size of brake to have on the shelf. Happy to take some measurements off the 312/272s if it helps

 

 

 

Edited 19 June, 2019 by flybynite

[MC Bodge]

40 minutes ago, flybynite said:

 

Not sure, the calipers are different (but similar) part numbers. Pads are often listed for both 288 and 312 brakes but doesn't mean the caliper they fit is not a different radius. Also not sure whether you would have 288/255 or 276/253 both seem to be listed for the smaller Octy 3

 

I would generally swap the set. 312/272 sets are easy to come across second hand from people upgrading Mk7 GTis etc. If the calipers are the same then you have some spare fronts, either to sell or keep as spare.

 

I have a set here but I was hanging on to them as they are almost new and I'm unlikely to get a set as good without buying new. Useful size of brake to have on the shelf. Happy to take some measurements off the 312/272s if it helps

 

 

 

Thanks for the info and GTI OEM kit would be ideal. I'll measure the discs when I get around to fitting my Ferodo Premier Eco pads (and probably change the brake fluid)

 

Assuming that I have the 288 Fronts (I'd hope so, on an estate). if it is not just a swap of the discs and carriers, I'll probably just leave them as is -I don't get the opportunity to do much hard, mountainous driving these days.

 

 

 

[MC Bodge]

Here are my brake discs

[trimata]

19 hours ago, MC Bodge said:

Is the 312mm front just a case of fitting bigger discs and different caliper carriers with the same calipers? 

 

 

312 mm calipers are different than 288 mm, changing only the carrier is not an option.

 

I see that you have velorum wheels - the maximum that you can fit in these wheel is 320 mm.

 

If you go down this road you have two options:

1. 312 mm from Octavia with 312x25 mm rotor

2. 320 mm from Audi with 320x30 mm rotor

 

option 2 is the better one because of the increased thickness of the rotor you have better thermal capacity, increased diameter => higher clamping force and the caliper has slightly larger piston. Having driven both options (320 on O3 2.0 TDI 150 hp and 312 mm on O3 FL 184 hp) can tell you that the 320 are better, but they require change of front brake lines.

 

When you do the mods change the fluid with DOT 4 with higher boiling point, not with DOT 5.1 because the second one has different viscosity which can affect the work of the system.

Edited 20 June, 2019 by trimata
addition

[flybynite]

3 hours ago, trimata said:

2. 320 mm from Audi with 320x30 mm rotor

 

That is a really good suggestion, especially if paired with the earlier ATE caliper which is far more rigid than the later TRW ones which tend to flex and grab.

 

It would be a very smooth progressive capable brake and all under a 16" wheel.

 

For the OP my only concern (same with the 340 setup) is making the suspension crashy. I have seen the 340mm setup paired with a 1.4 TSi and the effect on the front suspension was very noticeable and not very nice. The 320mm disks are lighter than the 340 but not by much.

 

On the bigger petrol or one of the diesels I wouldn't hesitate, but on the small petrol I think the 312mm setup is the ideal compromise. if you need more braking there are things you can do caliper wise with the 312mm disk.

[fabdavrav]

I was one of the first to swap the lousy 288mm discs for the 312mm discs...after I had severe brake fade...first time in 20yrs of driving!...

 

I did a write up on the MK7 Golf forum....its easy, just the disc & calliper carriers..nothing else is required.

 

I have used both Brembo Max & ATE power discs & standard matching pads & both are better than EBC I have had in the past.

 

Also fit the Audi  brake ducts to the lower wishbones..helps with cooling….

 

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26006

 

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41323

[ChoonDoode]

I'd say a cost effective way would be new pads, possibly discs, but certainly the brake fluid. You don't need race pads or anything expensive. Something along the lines of EBC greenstuff are a good shout, even spending a bit more and getting yellowstuff pads.

 

Just depends on what you're wanting to spend

[MC Bodge]

On 20/06/2019 at 20:58, fabdavrav said:

I was one of the first to swap the lousy 288mm discs for the 312mm discs...after I had severe brake fade...first time in 20yrs of driving!...

 

I did a write up on the MK7 Golf forum....its easy, just the disc & calliper carriers..nothing else is required.

 

I have used both Brembo Max & ATE power discs & standard matching pads & both are better than EBC I have had in the past.

 

Also fit the Audi  brake ducts to the lower wishbones..helps with cooling….

 

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26006

 

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41323

Good info. I have not had brake fade since my second hand Mk1 Mondeo in the late 90s that had presumably been fitted with cheapo aftermarket pads. 

 

I'll hopefully get chance to have a look at my brakes and fit the Ferodo pads this Weekend. 

 

Did you have any issues with the cooling ducts at MOT time? 

Edited 28 June, 2019 by MC Bodge

[fabdavrav]

16 hours ago, MC Bodge said:

 

Did you have any issues with the cooling ducts at MOT time? 

 

Nope!...its cable tied at factory for the Audi which they are from...so long as they are solid & you trim the ends correctly...

[MC Bodge]

I finally got around to getting the wheels off to fit the Ferodo FDB4433 front pads. 

 

The discs are 288mm vented, which is good news if I do decide to fit the discs and carriers that it should have had from the factory. 

 

The pistons were easy to press back in, the new pads fitted the carriers very well. 

 

I gave the calipers a light paint with black smoothrite to neaten them up a little.

 

I gave good bite and performance immediately on the bedding-in drive. 

 

I'm tempted to try those air ducts and give the brakes a bleed too. 

[MC Bodge]

On 29/06/2019 at 09:18, fabdavrav said:

 

Nope!...its cable tied at factory for the Audi which they are from...so long as they are solid & you trim the ends correctly...

Thanks. It seems to be a good idea. 

 

Ps. Would there be any issue with fitting only the bigger front discs? F:R Brake balance would presumably be affected. 

[fabdavrav]

45 minutes ago, MC Bodge said:

Thanks. It seems to be a good idea. 

 

Ps. Would there be any issue with fitting only the bigger front discs? F:R Brake balance would presumably be affected. 

 

 

Nope brake balance is not affected as you might think.....basically by fitting the 312mm disc & calipers I have upgraded my car to factory spec GTI/GTD......the rest of the system is the same......

 

VW designed the brake system for the MQB 312mm GTI & then fitted smaller discs & carriers for the lesser spec cars...….the AWD "R" has a completely different system (340mm disc with bigger pistons & bigger rear discs, different servo etc) which is the system you get when you order the "PP" option on the GTI...

[MC Bodge]

45 minutes ago, fabdavrav said:

 

 

Nope brake balance is not affected as you might think.....basically by fitting the 312mm disc & calipers I have upgraded my car to factory spec GTI/GTD......the rest of the system is the same......

 

VW designed the brake system for the MQB 312mm GTI & then fitted smaller discs & carriers for the lesser spec cars...….the AWD "R" has a completely different system (340mm disc with bigger pistons & bigger rear discs, different servo etc) which is the system you get when you order the "PP" option on the GTI...

Interesting, thanks. 

 

Its a shame that the 1.4TSI estate doesn't get the bigger brakes (and IRS), although I suppose that the vast majority of people would never reach the point of brake fade and the assumption being that "keen drivers" would pay the premium for the GT# models, although even few of them would be driven in a way that treated the brakes hard. 

 

Ps. Similarly for the rear suspension. Few drivers would notice the difference. Encountering a mid-bend bump being where I notice it most, as the back end skips out. 

[flybynite]

1 hour ago, fabdavrav said:

Nope brake balance is not affected as you might think.....basically by fitting the 312mm disc & calipers I have upgraded my car to factory spec GTI/GTD......the rest of the system is the same......

 

Did you have 272mm or 255mm rear brakes on the 1.4 Golf? I am sure the Octy has the smaller rear brakes.

 

To upgrade to GTI/GTD spec you need 312mm fronts AND 272mm rear brakes.

 

2 hours ago, MC Bodge said:

Ps. Would there be any issue with fitting only the bigger front discs? F:R Brake balance would presumably be affected. 

 

Putting 312mm on the front and leaving 255mm on the back will not cause any great problem as the ABS is very clever and looks at each wheel's performance individually irrespective of what (braking) is affecting that performance.

 

However my preference, by far, is to have good rear brakes on a road car as I'm  are not trying to be 'tail-happy' round corners on the road like you would be on a track, no matter how fast I'm are driving.