Buying narrower winter tyres

[skippy41]

On 03/09/2019 at 12:35, botze said:

 

Thanks, but I'm in Sweden where we occasionally get a lot of snow in winter, so I'd rather have proper winter tyres 😊

I have run the full snow ones in the past and with  studs, the all season one work  just  as well 

[flybynite]

3 hours ago, skippy41 said:

I have run the full snow ones in the past and with  studs, the all season one work  just  as well 

 

If you have all season tyres that work as well as studded winter tyres I would love to know which ones they are.

[KenONeill]

8 hours ago, flybynite said:

all season tyres that work as well as studded winter tyres I would love to know which ones they are.

Pretty much any all season will work as well as or better than a studded tyre in the Scottish borders, on account of being a rubber to road or snow interface, rather than a metal to road one.

[flybynite]

5 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

Pretty much any all season will work as well as or better than a studded tyre in the Scottish borders,

 

Yes but he is in Sweden!

 

I have always used winters, but had 1 machine on all seasons last winter. Much better than summer tyres no doubt, but not a patch on my winters and you didn't neeed any snow to see that.

[KenONeill]

1 hour ago, flybynite said:

Yes but he is in Sweden

So why does Skippy's location say "Scottish Borders" then? Even if he were in Sweden, my full post would still be correct, and studded tyres aren't legal in some parts of Sweden.

[botze]

41 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

So why does Skippy's location say "Scottish Borders" then? Even if he were in Sweden, my full post would still be correct, and studded tyres aren't legal in some parts of Sweden.

 

Studded tyres are legal everywhere in Sweden (within some time of the year) except for some streets in the center of the biggest towns. 

 

But like I said, in Gothenburg where I live they love salt on the road, so a lot of times you will have snow on smaller roads which they don´t put salt on and asphalt on the bigger roads. And metal to asphalt is not beneficial for anyone. 

 

But regarding all weather tyres, my understanding is that the rubber is way softer in the winter tyres, so it stays softer at cold temperatures than summer tyres, and that´s the big difference between the tyres (along with deeper pattern on the winter tyres). And that softer rubber would wear out quickly in the summer. 

[cheezemonkhai]

Nokian WR A4 in 205/55/r16 H were fine when we had the beast from the east and in the rest of winter.

 

Nokian also do the hakkapalita studdable tyres. Stud free, but you can add studs I believe.

 

If you’re Central Europe cold go for the WR or I currently like the Michelin  alpin 6.

 

if you’re properly Nordic cold get the hakkapalita as they’re excellent with or without studs.

 

Not great on dry tarmac as they are designed for very cold and snow, so wear and move around more.

 

Personally I would get 6J steels as you can use those with chains and stick the 205/55/r16.

 

always best to check with your local garage/tyre specialist though as your conditions are different to our conditions.

[flybynite]

3 hours ago, KenONeill said:

 and studded tyres aren't legal in some parts of Sweden.

 

Really?

 

2 hours ago, botze said:

Studded tyres are legal everywhere in Sweden

 

That is what I have found every time I end up working up there in the winter. even in the balmy heat 🥶 of the south  in Gothenberg.

 

Nice place any time of year though, I do like spending time in Gothenberg 👍

 

3 hours ago, KenONeill said:

So why does Skippy's location say "Scottish Borders" then?

 

I was talking about the OP to whom he was giving tyre advice. The OP lives in Sweden. What may work in the scottish borders may not work in Gothenberg.

 

I would still like to know which all season tyre would work the same as studded winters, irrespective where you are using them.

[KenONeill]

12 minutes ago, flybynite said:

 

I would still like to know which all season tyre would work the same as studded winters, irrespective where you are using them.

Asked and answered; any all season will work better than a studded tyre on pavement not covered in ice.

[flybynite]

10 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

any all season will work better than a studded tyre on pavement not covered in ice.

 

?  

 

Agreed: and they will work better in the summer on 30 degree tarmac and any one of a dozen other situations including doing the 1/4 mile at Santa Pod.

 

In snow and on ice they will not.

 

18 hours ago, skippy41 said:

I have run the full snow ones in the past and with  studs, the all season one work  just  as well 

 

Bit of a sweeping statement as advice for someone who lives in Sweden? You really need to qualify when and where you found this to be true. 

 

As ever you need to get tyres for the conditions you see most. Simples

[logiclee]

I ran premium  summer/winters for 15 years.

 

My commute was peak district so snow and ice was very common.

 

For the last few years I've run all seasons,  Michelin Cross Climates on one Octavia and Goodyear Vector 4 Season Gen 2's on the other.

 

For winter weather the cross climates are great in snow not quite as good as a full winter on ice, the Goodyear's gave me as much confidence as the Goodyear Ultragrips that were on before and that's been in the worst of the Beast from the East through the peak district.

In the hottest summer weather I didn't notice any performance issues with the Cross Climates but you probably loose a little turn in bite from the Goodyears. 

 

For the majority of drivers in the majority of cars these are the right tyre for UK weather and should be standard fit on your standard family car in my opinion. Our 1.2TSi Octavia came with high performance Y rated summer tyres capable of 186mph, what's the point? Modern all seasons would be a better standard fit.

 

I'm stuck with my current car though as the only Premium choice for all seasons is the Bridgestone Weather Control and the reviews seem mixed. Current looking for a set of smaller rims and winters.

 

 

[botze]

1 hour ago, logiclee said:

I ran premium  summer/winters for 15 years.

 

My commute was peak district so snow and ice was very common.

 

For the last few years I've run all seasons,  Michelin Cross Climates on one Octavia and Goodyear Vector 4 Season Gen 2's on the other.

 

For winter weather the cross climates are great in snow not quite as good as a full winter on ice, the Goodyear's gave me as much confidence as the Goodyear Ultragrips that were on before and that's been in the worst of the Beast from the East through the peak district.

In the hottest summer weather I didn't notice any performance issues with the Cross Climates but you probably loose a little turn in bite from the Goodyears. 

 

For the majority of drivers in the majority of cars these are the right tyre for UK weather and should be standard fit on your standard family car in my opinion. Our 1.2TSi Octavia came with high performance Y rated summer tyres capable of 186mph, what's the point? Modern all seasons would be a better standard fit.

 

I'm stuck with my current car though as the only Premium choice for all seasons is the Bridgestone Weather Control and the reviews seem mixed. Current looking for a set of smaller rims and winters.

 

 

Interesting. The idea of not having to change wheels twice a year is very appealing. However some compromises must be made with those tyres I imagine. I don't worry about summer grip, what I do want is best possible grip in snowy bad conditions. 

[logiclee]

6 minutes ago, botze said:

 

Interesting. The idea of not having to change wheels twice a year is very appealing. However some compromises must be made with those tyres I imagine. I don't worry about summer grip, what I do want is best possible grip in snowy bad conditions. 

 

 

[logiclee]

Summer v Cross Climate v Vector 4 Season, v Winter.

 

 

[botze]

13 minutes ago, logiclee said:

 

 

 

Very informative, thanks! He also confirms my suspicion that the perfect all-weather tyre doesn't exist. I don't want to be in a crash with my kids thinking "maybe a proper winter tyre could have saved us from crashing". I think I will keep changing twice a year 😁

[logiclee]

1 minute ago, botze said:

 

Very informative, thanks! He also confirms my suspicion that the perfect all-weather tyre doesn't exist. I don't want to be in a crash with my kids thinking "maybe a proper winter tyre could have saved us from crashing". I think I will keep changing twice a year 😁

 

Have a read of the tyre tests on line.

 

All Seasons from Nokian and the Goodyear above are usually quite close to a premium winter and outperform most budget to mid level winters.

[brettikivi]

I would check the specifics on what you're allowed to put on. Here it's +30mm and 3", others may list your allowable tyre sizes in your Part I document. 

205/55R16s are generally cheap and available.

I run Hakkapeliitta 8s and am very happy with them. Remember that the only time studs are better than studless is on wet ice; other than that, especially on wet roads, studless have a mild advantage. 

The answer to studs or not depends a lot on four things, though: 4x4 or not; your specific location, legal requirements, and your skill.

If you live in a hilly area with lots of ice (like up towards Munkedalen), you'll have fun without studs. 

If you're on the coast, say towards Strömstad, you may see less snow but more ice, so I'd venture studs are a good move. 

If you need the traction and don't have 4x4, you will have more traction on ice with studs than without.

Legal requirements may say you're only allowed to put studs on a certain times (just like here), so you may want to get studless, because you can put them on earlier and leave them on longer if your driving route is subject to early ice. I'd doubt it, with the ice-free nature of Gothenburg, but it's a point to be considered.

If you are a skilled driver, you may not have much difference between the two. But if this is your first winter in the Octy and on the coast, I'd err towards studs.

 

OTOH, there are others here who drive studs or not regularly; like @Petunet - who is the only one I can think of that didn't need to be pulled out of a snowbank once at track, and @Jaco2k who is now running a Leon. Both cars are immensely capable on snow and ice, wet or not. I've driven the Leon and it's a bit of a monster. I'm too timid for it ;-) 

I've seen what true spikes can do and it's impressive. Studs are a nice halfway house.

 

 - Bret

 

[botze]

34 minutes ago, brettikivi said:

I would check the specifics on what you're allowed to put on. Here it's +30mm and 3", others may list your allowable tyre sizes in your Part I document. 

205/55R16s are generally cheap and available.

I run Hakkapeliitta 8s and am very happy with them. Remember that the only time studs are better than studless is on wet ice; other than that, especially on wet roads, studless have a mild advantage. 

The answer to studs or not depends a lot on four things, though: 4x4 or not; your specific location, legal requirements, and your skill.

If you live in a hilly area with lots of ice (like up towards Munkedalen), you'll have fun without studs. 

If you're on the coast, say towards Strömstad, you may see less snow but more ice, so I'd venture studs are a good move. 

If you need the traction and don't have 4x4, you will have more traction on ice with studs than without.

Legal requirements may say you're only allowed to put studs on a certain times (just like here), so you may want to get studless, because you can put them on earlier and leave them on longer if your driving route is subject to early ice. I'd doubt it, with the ice-free nature of Gothenburg, but it's a point to be considered.

If you are a skilled driver, you may not have much difference between the two. But if this is your first winter in the Octy and on the coast, I'd err towards studs.

 

OTOH, there are others here who drive studs or not regularly; like @Petunet - who is the only one I can think of that didn't need to be pulled out of a snowbank once at track, and @Jaco2k who is now running a Leon. Both cars are immensely capable on snow and ice, wet or not. I've driven the Leon and it's a bit of a monster. I'm too timid for it 😉

I've seen what true spikes can do and it's impressive. Studs are a nice halfway house.

 

 - Bret

 

 

Thanks a lot! I'm in central Gothenburg so I'm actually not considering studs at all. I'm looking to buy probably the Goodyear UltraGrip Ice 2 or the Pirelli Winter Ice Zero FR, since these tyres seem to perform the best in tests I've read, together with the Continental Viking Contact 7 but that's a little bit more expensive, and the performance seems similar to those I mentioned. 

[cheezemonkhai]

Like I said, I think the nokians are stud less but can be studded if you decided to.

 

that way you could buy studless and add them if you’re finding yourself wishing you had added studs.

[Jaco2k]

Beware cause studless tires in the nordics and in center Europe are a bit different.

What we have up here in terms of rubber compound and thread patter is different from what most places call "winter tires" and are way more competent, even in extreme conditions.

Even though I originally preferred studs, every time I buy a car in Finland it comes with studless tires, which has forced me to drive winter after winter with them...

I can say by now I am a convert, and all it took was a bit of adapting of my driving style - only on really icy conditions you will feel a difference, and that is only a few days every winter.

What does make a difference is the quality of the studless winter tire you got - I have always had the test winners for that year on my card (currently it is some ContiWinter something or so - I would need to check) and I even have them in 235/35/19 and they work just fine.

The whole thing about the width and rally cars having thinner tires is a bit of a myth. I am not sure what type of conditions it would take for a regular car and driver to feel a difference

[botze]

21 minutes ago, Jaco2k said:

Beware cause studless tires in the nordics and in center Europe are a bit different.

What we have up here in terms of rubber compound and thread patter is different from what most places call "winter tires" and are way more competent, even in extreme conditions.

Even though I originally preferred studs, every time I buy a car in Finland it comes with studless tires, which has forced me to drive winter after winter with them...

I can say by now I am a convert, and all it took was a bit of adapting of my driving style - only on really icy conditions you will feel a difference, and that is only a few days every winter.

What does make a difference is the quality of the studless winter tire you got - I have always had the test winners for that year on my card (currently it is some ContiWinter something or so - I would need to check) and I even have them in 235/35/19 and they work just fine.

The whole thing about the width and rally cars having thinner tires is a bit of a myth. I am not sure what type of conditions it would take for a regular car and driver to feel a difference

 

Yes, there are "Nordic winter tyres" and regular winter tyres. I usually do like you, go for the test winner which right now seems to be Continental Viking Contact 7. But yesterday I ordered Goodyear UltraGrip Ice 2, which was the test winner last year. The Conti tyre is brand new and a bit more expensive, and seems a bit more noisy. 

[Petunet]

It really depends were you are, what are the conditions and how you drive but for everyday driving I would recommend studless tyres.

I have studded tyres but I have to be able to get to my destination (sometimes in a hurry) in every possible weather.