Tyres - Summer, Winter or All Season

[vrskeith]

 

 

[Gmac983]

^^^Yep, winter tyres work better than all season and summer tyres on a snow covered frozen lake 👍

 

P. S

Just to be crystal clear, that's an attempt at humour, no offense or sheep sh4gging meant to anyone concerned, cheers. 

Edited 7 November, 2019 by Gmac983

[micro]

20 minutes ago, AGFalco said:

 

https://www.mytyres.co.uk/cgi-bin/rshop.pl?dsco=110&cart_id=uSh25wekkiV5bzU6.110.680986250&Cookie=sea_rd_uk_Google_Search&sowigan=GAN&Breite=205&Quer=55&Felge=16&kategorie=6&Marke=Goodyear&Herst=Goodyear&m_s=3&rsmFahrzeugart=ALL&Label=B-C-70-2&details=Ordern&typ=R-281917

 

Thanks AG Falco

 

In all of my research (including on mytyres iirc) I couldn't find anything that said they had the accreditation. I never actually looked at my tyres to see if it was present, and you are correct, they do have them. How embarassing 😣. 

 

[Alex-W]

See, for me,  winter tyres would just be insane, I can't even remember the last time I drove in snow, maybe 4 years ago.  It just doesn't get anywhere near cold enough down here.

 

All seasons suggest that they are suitable all year round, and I have to admit im tempted on my wife's Mazda, it's only 180bhp, it's pretty much never driven hard and having a decent all year round tyre for the family wagon would be useful.

 

On my vRS or Type R though, I just don't think I'd want to take the performance hit in the summer.  

Its probably only 3rd of the year that the temps are low, so for 2/3rds of the year you're suffering decreased performance.  

I think on a lower power car where the all season exceeds the requirements of the car in all conditions it makes sense but in a car that if driven with a bit of enthusiasm can exceed the capabilities of the tyre it's a more difficult choice.

[micro]

2 minutes ago, Alex-W said:

See, for me,  winter tyres would just be insane, I can't even remember the last time I drove in snow, maybe 4 years ago.  It just doesn't get anywhere near cold enough down here..

 

Anything below 7 degrees and all season/winter rubber will start having an improved grip compared to summer rubber. It's not just snow grip.

 

On my 100ps Focus the Nokian WR-A3s never let me down except for some weird cornering feedback - believed to be down to the movement of the sipes.

[AGFalco]

30 minutes ago, Alex-W said:

See, for me,  winter tyres would just be insane, I can't even remember the last time I drove in snow, maybe 4 years ago.  It just doesn't get anywhere near cold enough down here.

 

I drive in North Dorset.

 

Last winter we had an evening of rain followed by a clear night.

The next morning on one corner where the sun had not warmed the road surface the rain from the night before was cold.

I went round this corner with a slight steering twitch, the car following me went through the fence and in to a field.

 

No snow to be seen, but I did have the right tyres on the car.

They also work very well across ploughed fields. 🙄

 

Thanks AG Falco

[Gmac983]

55 minutes ago, Alex-W said:

See, for me,  winter tyres would just be insane, I can't even remember the last time I drove in snow, maybe 4 years ago.  It just doesn't get anywhere near cold enough down here.

 

All seasons suggest that they are suitable all year round, and I have to admit im tempted on my wife's Mazda, it's only 180bhp, it's pretty much never driven hard and having a decent all year round tyre for the family wagon would be useful.

 

On my vRS or Type R though, I just don't think I'd want to take the performance hit in the summer.  

Its probably only 3rd of the year that the temps are low, so for 2/3rds of the year you're suffering decreased performance.  

I think on a lower power car where the all season exceeds the requirements of the car in all conditions it makes sense but in a car that if driven with a bit of enthusiasm can exceed the capabilities of the tyre it's a more difficult choice.

 

How hard do you drive on public roads if perceived lose of performance between a good all season tyre and a summer tyre is such a big issue for you?

As others have said it's not only about snow grip. 

Also surely the more power you have the more crucial the correct tyre for the job would be allowing you to exploit the vehicles capabilities in the other 3 seasons of the year not just summer. 

If chasing high performance is what your after shouldn't you be in the market for a road legal semi-slick tyre instead as they will considerably out perform any conventional summer tyre. 

[Alex-W]

I've just had average summer tyres before sand found them lacking, you don't have to drive that quick to find the limits of a non premium tyre in the summer and my fear would be an all season would be similar in the summer.

 

4 minutes ago, Gmac983 said:

Also surely the more power you have the more crucial the correct tyre for the job would be allowing you to exploit the vehicles capabilities in the other 3 seasons of the year not just summer. 

 

The reality is though, 3 out if the 4 seasons, the summer tyre will be better though, not just the one.

Sure, in colder countries is a different story but the UK is very mild in seasons (it's just wet all the time).

I mean, it's November and I'm still getting into the car in the morning to find it 8-10 degrees.  Hell, it's been 17 degrees this week.

By the end of February it'll likely be the same.  We often end up having heat waves by April.  The only months it's at all a concern in my experience is December to February.

The question is, is it worth comprising tyres for the other 9 months, for the 3?  

[Gmac983]

^^^Valid points for your reality on the south coast however here at the other end of the UK (and many in between) we've been having frosts since mid October and can have substantial snow storms as late as April on our cold/wet/greasy roads. Hence my earlier comment about all season tyres for all seasons. 

Apologies I don't want to seem like I'm arguing you down. At the end of the day if summer tyres are what you want and they work for your needs then that's what you use. And the rest of us'll use what we need to use. 

Edited 7 November, 2019 by Gmac983

[Jock]

For many years, I've changed (usually around end of October) from summer to winter tyres and then back again in March.

The winter tyres really do make a difference, even in the mild Yorkshire climate, on ice.  

This year, I've replaced summer tyres with All Seasons, my reasoning being we see so little snow here that it's really not worth swapping tyres (especially at my age - I usually ache for about a week afterwards!) 

I've fitted Lassa (Turkish Bridgestone)  to my Octavia Scout - it'll be interesting to see what they're like on mild off-road conditions as well as in the ice - not done a great mileage so far, but they seem to be quite sure-footed so far.

[SurreyJohn]

8 hours ago, Alex-W said:

I've just had average summer tyres before sand found them lacking, you don't have to drive that quick to find the limits of a non premium tyre in the summer and my fear would be an all season would be similar in the summer.

 

 

The reality is though, 3 out if the 4 seasons, the summer tyre will be better though, not just the one.

Sure, in colder countries is a different story but the UK is very mild in seasons (it's just wet all the time).

I mean, it's November and I'm still getting into the car in the morning to find it 8-10 degrees.  Hell, it's been 17 degrees this week.

By the end of February it'll likely be the same.  We often end up having heat waves by April.  The only months it's at all a concern in my experience is December to February.

The question is, is it worth comprising tyres for the other 9 months, for the 3?  

North Hampshire is -1c this morning and its still early November.

Of course the coastal strip is normally warmer

 

The simple fact is summer tyres are designed to work in air temperatures upto about 40c, and below about 10c grip falls drastically.  You can’t defy the laws of physics, rubber is only elastic within certain temperature range.

 

All seasons are optimised for about 12-15c lower (varies by brand, and silica is mixed into the compound) so optimum from approx -5c to 27c

 

Winters can be used upto +20c but work best approx -15c to +15c

 

There is also a Nordic winter tyre, but no one is going to use them in UK

 

To clear the confusion +7c is the crossover point where summers work better than winters, that doesn’t mean winters are useless above +7c

 

If you want to use a performance car all year in UK then get something like Vredestein Quatrac Pro.    If you want ultimate summer performance get a road legal semi-slick, but don’t expect them to be any good in wet, or below about 20c

 

Edited 8 November, 2019 by SurreyJohn

[Alex-W]

2 hours ago, SurreyJohn said:

North Hampshire is -1c this morning and its still early November.

Of course the coastal strip is normally warmer

 

The simple fact is summer tyres are designed to work in air temperatures upto about 40c, and below about 10c grip falls drastically.  You can’t defy the laws of physics, rubber is only elastic within certain temperature range.

 

All seasons are optimised for about 12-15c lower (varies by brand, and silica is mixed into the compound) so optimum from approx -5c to 27c

 

Winters can be used upto +20c but work best approx -15c to +15c

 

There is also a Nordic winter tyre, but no one is going to use them in UK

 

To clear the confusion +7c is the crossover point where summers work better than winters, that doesn’t mean winters are useless above +7c

 

If you want to use a performance car all year in UK then get something like Vredestein Quatrac Pro.    If you want ultimate summer performance get a road legal semi-slick, but don’t expect them to be any good in wet, or below about 20c

 

 

Yep, admittedly it was 5°c on my way to work this morning.

 

There does seem to be an assumption though that summers used at colder temps are just going to be like skating on an ice rink.

Sure, I get that they're not as good, however the performance isn't going to just fall off a cliff, otherwise most of the country would be in ditches come December as summer tyres are the standard for most people.  Most people don't even know there's a difference and just ask for new tyres at their local fitter.  The only question they get asked is 'budget, premium or mid range' and most people then just go 'mid range' not even knowing what they have.

 

I'm personally running Michellin PS4s right now, which are due replacement soon as they're down to ~2.5mm tread.  A very competent tyre in the summer, in the wet also.  TBH I've not really noticed an issue in the few cold days we've had (I tried a few very hard braking stops today and it didn't lose grip at all).

I suspect however if I was running some kind of super hard eco summer tyre then it would be a different story.

 

Don't get me wrong, summers are going to be worse, the thing that I'm trying to work out is how much worse, whether that's actually a problem or whether when I look around most people in your average car are running cheap Nexans or Linglongs or whatever, in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal.

 

I do also realise though that where I live, near the coast, I hardly ever see the temps the rest of the country sees.  Plus it's pretty flat around here.

[Russ77]

I fitted CrossClimate+ last April, they were slightly more expensive than any tyre I'd previously fitted (Avon, Goodyear, Uniroyal, Faulken, Hankook) but they are by far the best in every single way!  "Summer" performance didn't feel any worse than any summer tyre I'd driven on.  I've yet to aquaplane with them fitted and the wear is much much better than I expected.  Fronts were down to about 4mm after 13K moderately enthusiastic miles.

 

Where these tyres come into there own are mornings like today with the temperature was hovering around 1c.  I used to get lots of unprovoked wheelspin in these conditions with summer tyres fitted and a feeling that I had to be a bit more careful even though there was no ice/frost/snow, just that the compound wasn't working as it does when it's warmer.

 

The all-seasons just feel so much more assured and safe.  I live in Essex so snow events are pretty rare and there's no justification for having a dedicated set of winter tyres, all-seasons are perfect and I guess this is the point for most of the UK.

 

Unless you're living in Scotland/Wales/Oop North where it's hilly and there's usually lots of snow and/or you live in really rural areas where dedicated snow tyres (and more than likely a 4x4) are a necessity, the new all-season tyres which have come to market over the last few years really do make sense

[Gmac983]

Looking at how the survey/vote is progressing tells us where the general consensus of opinion lies. 

 

Perhaps for further discussion we should rule out cross-compairing budget (ditch finder) tyres as regardless to which category of tyre they will obviously be inferior to mid range and premium brands. 

 

Most people value sure-footed grip in all weather's and don't give a monkeys about testing the absolute  limit of adhesion on a nice summer afternoon. Folk who don't wish to compromise and want the best of both worlds change the their tyres summer to winter, those who don't want the hassle of changing use the jack of all trades all season tyre. 

 

You won't scrabble about for grip too many times in cold/wet or frosty/snowy conditions before you see the undeniable benefits of winter or all season tyres and that's a fact. 

Edited 8 November, 2019 by Gmac983

[gregoir]

Alex-W was the original poster of the survey and has now got the result and the opinion of forum members. 

It now feels that Alex-W is trying to say that people are wrong with their majority choice. No offence intended.

[logiclee]

 

This year will be the first year since 2010 that I have a car on summers in the winter months. This because I'm looking at £800 for premium winters and CrossClimate and Vector Gen 2's are not available in my 19" size.

It's no biggie as I have the Octavia on Cross Climates to use. 

 

Driving to work this morning on wet leafy roads with an ambient air temp of 2 degrees wasn't that enjoyable. Far too much DSC light action.

 

I'll use the Octavia when it gets properly freezing and next year it'll definitely be on All Seasons or winters. Once you are used to that available grip in the winter it's hard not to bother anymore.

[Alex-W]

6 hours ago, gregoir said:

Alex-W was the original poster of the survey and has now got the result and the opinion of forum members. 

It now feels that Alex-W is trying to say that people are wrong with their majority choice. No offence intended.

 

 Not at all, I just enjoy a healthy debate, there's at least 2 sides to most arguments and to a certain extent it comes down to personal choice and preference, plus individual location and use.

 

Not having used all seasons myself, I'm just nervous about the idea of them...  Reading reviews they perform worse in the dry than even more economy biased summer tyres, worse in the wet than more performance biased summer tyres.

I've spent many years buying Michelin PS4s, Goodyear Eagle F1s and similar, so reading that the likes of a cross climate isn't as good as a Michelin Primacy (a tyre I wouldnt have considered) makes me nervous about summer performance.

So, there is a sacrifice to be had and it's just trying to quantify what the winter advantage is vs the summer sacrifice. 

A jack of all trades and master of none of you like.

However, to a certain extent, the Octavia vRS is that anyway...  It's not a drivers car, but it's very practical and quick enough.  I certainly would never put anything other than decent summer tyres on my type r, but maybe I should consider the option for the skoda.

 

 

 

[micro]

5 minutes ago, Alex-W said:

 

 

Not having used all seasons myself, I'm just nervous about the idea of them...  Reading reviews they perform worse in the dry than even more economy biased summer tyres, worse in the wet than more performance biased summer tyres.

 

 

Granted mine were fitted towards the colder end of our temperatures, but I drove around with winter tyres on my previous car.

 

The winters were unique in corners (described previously). The 4Seasons Gen 2 seem just as sturdy, if not more, than the summer tyre fitted to my Octy when i purchased it. Yes the car is only 110ps, but i'm quite a spirited driver. 

[skomaz]

2 hours ago, Alex-W said:

 

I've spent many years buying Michelin PS4s, Goodyear Eagle F1s and similar, so reading that the likes of a cross climate isn't as good as a Michelin Primacy (a tyre I wouldnt have considered) makes me nervous about summer performance

 

 

Having had Eagle F1s in the past I, personally would rate the Cross Climates as equal if not better...   The F1s, whilst grippy weren't good in the wet and we're incredibly noisy...

 

But each to their own...

[SurreyJohn]

9 hours ago, Alex-W said:

 

 to a certain extent it comes down to personal choice and preference, plus individual location and use.

 

Not having used all seasons myself, I'm just nervous about the idea of them...  Reading reviews they perform worse in the dry than even more economy biased summer tyres, worse in the wet than more performance biased summer tyres.

 

So, there is a sacrifice to be had and it's just trying to quantify what the winter advantage is vs the summer sacrifice. 

 

Location is important, some parts of the country are wetter and milder because they are affected by the sea, handily all seasons are not the same, some are summer biased, some more winter biased.

 

Ulimately no jack of all trades tyre will outperform a premium summer tyre on a dry hot summer evening of spirited motoring.  Conversely that wonder summer tyre might put you in a ditch on a frosty morning with muddy field run off water on a country road.
 

Whilst there are good mid range summer tyres (and you should always aim for a good rating at sensible price, rather than expensive regardless of quality).  I don’t know anyone that recommends budget or lower mid range all seasons, it costs money to make them work properly.  Some cheaper all seasons are as bad as poor budget summer tyres.

 

So if you live on Southern coast buy something like Bridgestone weather control A005 (which seems to win most wet braking tests, beating many summer tyres), but is not the best rated for snow.  
 

For much of the country not going to go wrong with Michelin cross climates or Goodyear vector 4 season gen 2.   If you live in hills in North need a snow biased all season, perhaps Continental all season contact or Nokian weatherproof

 

Finally all seasons make sense on a second car or family car, no hassle of changing tyres every 6 months, secure in all weathers.  However might not be enough on a high performance car for all year spirited driving.  If you want to do that really need to run separate summer and winter season tyres.     One caveat the Vredestein Quatrac Pro was launched earlier this year for high performance vehicles (there is a separate thread on these) and might be solution, depends on how enthusiastic your driving is.

[Gmac983]

^^^what he said! 

Nicely ties together everything that's been discussed so far👍

[AGFalco]

I always ask this question:-

 

If there is snow/ice on the ground would you go out driving.

If the answer is no then don't bother with winter / all season tyres.

 

If you are expected to get somewhere ( for work ) then winter or all season with the 3PMSS on them should be an option.

The choice could be down to location and or performance of the car.

 

-1 C this morning in rural N. Dorset when I left for work, and it was at -2.5 C  2 hours earlier.

 

Thanks AG Falco.

Edited 9 November, 2019 by AGFalco
added ice

[cheezemonkhai]

I personally think that the law should be changed, so that all cars purchased (new or used) must be supplied with tyres suitable for all seasons.

This could be summers and a set of winters on steels/alloys or a set of tested all seasons.

 

Basically it's a joke that all cars are supplied (Especially those that arrive in the big september glut)  on tyres that are effectively useless for winter conditions.

Not throwing them is dangerous to other road users and throwing them is bad for the environment. Surely best to just supply with all seasons and let the purchaser tick a summer tyres plus winter wheels/tyres cost option box.

 

I've been on cross climates instead of summers and have just put the winters on today, due to a fair dump of slushy snow. I already had them and I am sure the cross climates would be perfectly acceptable too (They are on other halfs car).

The reasons I gave in and put them back on were:

 

1) Potholes and the winters are on steels

2) The winters are better on snow, but particulary on slush/ice - Not great on ice, just better as nothing will deal well with polished ice bar chains/studs

3) They're 16" and my chains are for that size.

4) I've got them and I'd be mad at myself if I didn't use them then had a prang because I couldn't stop/turn in time.

 

If I didn't already have them, I'd probably fit something like cross climate, conti all season or vector all seasons etc (eg 3 peaks marked all seasons) and just drive to the conditions.

The modern summer tyres are basically elastic bands with grooves, older tyres were basically blocky patterns, like modern all seasons.

 

That's probably why you hear all these people saying they were fine in the past... because block tread patterns clump snow, which locks to other snow.

That plus more blocks = more morevement = more heat generated. So not great for summer, but much better in the cold that giant lumps of solid rubber.

 

 

Edited 14 November, 2019 by cheezemonkhai

[Alex-W]

1 hour ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Basically it's a joke that all cars are supplied (Especially those that arrive in the big september glut)  on tyres that are effectively useless for winter conditions.

 

 

I think that may be an overstatement.

95% of the UK stay on summer tyres all year round.

If the tyres were useless and were going to result in crashes left right and centre, then 95% cars would never make it through the first winter, let alone longer.

Clearly people are not crashing all over the place, they're simply driving with the reduced effectiveness of the tyres taken into consideration.

 

As I say, I'm on summer tyres which are at about 2.5mm tread.. the last week to be fair has been about 4°c in the mornings and I've not struggled for grip as yet.

I've been driving 18 years and never once had a car with anything other than summer tyres on.  I've always driven to the conditions and as a result stayed safe.  

 

I think it's fair to say that summer tyres fitted to new cars is not giving the average buyer the optimum solution for the all round weather conditions, however they're not about to spin out and turn into a fireball in the nearest hedge as a result.  They're just less effective and certainly not the best option for the season.

 

 

[SurreyJohn]

2 hours ago, Alex-W said:

 

I think that may be an overstatement.

95% of the UK stay on summer tyres all year round.

If the tyres were useless and were going to result in crashes left right and centre, then 95% cars would never make it through the first winter, let alone longer.

Clearly people are not crashing all over the place, they're simply driving with the reduced effectiveness of the tyres taken into consideration.

 

As I say, I'm on summer tyres which are at about 2.5mm tread.. the last week to be fair has been about 4°c in the mornings and I've not struggled for grip as yet.

I've been driving 18 years and never once had a car with anything other than summer tyres on.  I've always driven to the conditions and as a result stayed safe.  

 

I think it's fair to say that summer tyres fitted to new cars is not giving the average buyer the optimum solution for the all round weather conditions, however they're not about to spin out and turn into a fireball in the nearest hedge as a result.  They're just less effective and certainly not the best option for the season.

 

 

The problem in UK has been a move to Eco tyres, these tend to be even harder than old style summer tyres, especially in cold weather.
 

Also modern summer tyres tend to have 3 or 4 grooves to displace water, and some narrow lateral grooves.  OK for rain, useless for snow.  Gone are the big knobbly tread pattern of yesteryear (remember those Z shapes)
 

So in past years might have got away with summer tyres, but going to struggle with anything resembling an eco summer tyre which have become more prevalent on new cars to allow warm weather road emissions tests.