All Season Tyres....

[Ootohere]

Supposedly the best all seasons on snow is the thing with Michelin Cross Climate 2.

Are they or are they not?    

If they were proven so then it would be simple. just fit them, but that is not how things work. 

 

First you need to get then on UK snow.  Find the snow. 

 Did he not know that when there is snow that Scottish Ski Resorts get roads ploughed to get people up, or if not the snow gates get closed.

 

We do need to know how they are on fresh snow though and on ploughed, hard packed snow roads as you get in the Scottish Hill Routes.

No black top. 

 

Lockdown & Covid closed the Ski Centres when there was snow to anyone other than very local.

Yoiu can check the roads in real time with the Road Side & Ski Centre Webcams.  It is known as using your common sense. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 3 October, 2022 by roottoot

[Doctor_Strange]

That's a good point, no doubt and at one time I invested in premium full winter tyres and changed twice per year. 

 

After much consideration, I decided that the all seasons suited the mostly mild winters we get and here in England, the very few days of snow. Should be ample for my needs. 

[SurreyJohn]

3 hours ago, Vlady said:

1.5 week ago I swapped original Bridgestones with Pirelli Cinturato All season SF2 and they are great, much quieter than Bridgestone and softer. I still always afraid of the snow and majority of the people still have worn summer tyres and they still drive to work/schools etc and stuck on any sort of the inclined surface which doesn't help anyone who has winter or all season tyres as you are stuck behind all other drivers!

Luckily the last time we had snow in the South (and I don’t mean a token dusting), most people stayed off the roads and it was easy to drive around any cars parked or abandoned at the bottom of any slope or hill.

 

Near Bath (nearest City to where I live) there are some quite serious hills to get out of the Avon valley, one north of the city is called Freezing Hill Lane which is self explanatory.  When it rains, the rain tends to run across the road so having good grip in cold rain is important.

 

[croquemonsieur]

The 2022 All weather tyre reviews are emerging, awaiting the AutuExpress review in November. Meantime :

 

4 ALL SEASON TYRE COMPARISONS

Hankook Kinergy 4S2,   Michelin CClimate 2,   Goodyear Vector G3,   Vredstein Quatrac (Pro in Tyre Rev)

 

                                          TYRE REVIEWS                                                      AUTO-BILD
                                           225/45 R17                                                         195/55 R16

 

OVERALL                          1 mild climates - HK                                           1 - GV
                                          1 snowy climates - MCC                                     2 - VQ
                                          2 snowy climates - HK                                        3 - HK  g comfort
                                          3 mild climates - MCC                                         8 - MCC vg comfort
                                          3 mild & snow - GV
                                          7 mild & snow - VQP

 

FUEL CONSUMPTION                                                                VQ best of these, rest similar, none brilliant

 

ROLLING RESISTANCE    3 - MCC,  6 - GV                                                  2 - MCC vg,          8 - VQ av
                                           8 - HK,     10 - VQP                                            11 - HK poorish,  14 - GV poor
                            
ABRASION weight loss                                                                                 1 -   MCC
                                                                                                                         6 -   GV10% more particulates
                                                                                                                         7 -   VQ 14% more particulates
                                                                                                                       14 - HK 50% more particulates

DRY                                   handling     1 - GV,      4 - HK,                           All good handling, summer better
                                                              5 - MCC,   7 - VQP
                                          braking      1 - MCC,    2 - HK,                           All good braking,  best MCC vg
                                                              5 - VQP,   7 - GV                              but summer way better

WET                                  handling    1 - VQP,    2 - HK                             handling   1 - summer,    2 - VQ,
                                                              3 - GV,    7 - MCC                                              3 - GV,  5 - HK,  12 - MCC
                                          braking       1- VQP,   2 - HK                              braking     1 - summer,   4 - GV,
                                                              3 - GV,    5 - Mxc                                                5 - VQ,  6 - HK,  10 - MCC
                                         aquaplane  1 - HK,     2 - GV                              aquaplane 1 - GV,  6 - summer,
                                                             4 - MCC, 9 - VQP                                                 7 - VQ,  8 - MCC,  13 - HK

SNOW                              traction      1- MCC,   4 - HK                               traction      (summer brilliant!!)  
                                                              8 - GV,    9 - VQP                                                2 - MCC g, rest close
                                         handling     1 - MCC, 3 - HK                               handling    all good (no sum tested)
                                                             3 - GV,    9 - VQP                                                 3 - HK best of these
                                         braking       1 - MCC, 2 - GV                                 braking     all good
                                                             4 - HK,    8 - VQP

NOISE                              internally   2 - VQP,  5 - HK,                               externally   2 - HK & MCC,   5 - VQ,
                                          all close     6  - GV,    8 - MCC                                                 8 -  GV,  summer dreadfull

[croquemonsieur]

Links if wanted    https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2022-Tyre-Reviews-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm       https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2022-Auto-Bild-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm

 

I thought the tyre abrasion assessment in Auto-Bild interesting.  I've read that now as car engines are much cleaner as regards particulates, those from tyres are far greater in comparison these days and of course they contain plastics that don't do the environment much long term good.  Michelin XClimates clearly best here and Hankook clearly worst shedding 50% more material when on the move, but taking into account all performance factors, I'm still doggedly hanging on to Hankooks on 16" wheels as my top choice next tyres for the Karoq 1.0 DSG in SE UK.  Auto-Bild were actually at a loss as to why the expected life of the Michelins was a bit less than the Hankooks - 27,500miles v 28,500miles (Goodyears 38,500miles).  (I reckon my 17" Turanzas with 5mm left at 19,000miles will become illegal at about 28,000miles, but I want to change them before then).

 

The 2 tests agreed in various aspects, but there were notable exceptions, particularly for best tyre overall.

 

Taking on board a Tyre Review's statement in the video, assuming my car does 40mpg & doing the maths, hopefully correctly, overall the Michelins would do 1.4mpg less than the best there on test, Goodyears 1.6mpg less, Hankooks 2mpg less & Vredstein Pros 3.5mpg less.  So not a lot in it for the first 3.

 

I wonder what those summers were that did the so well in the snow and wet in the Auto-Bild report.  Perhaps there's a mistake.

 

It's a pity that Tyre reviews couldn't do the rough rough noise testing, nor ride comparisons for yet a second year - I find road noise over noisy road surfaces and broken road surfaces, along with the accompanying ride deterioration in the latter, the most tiring and unpleasant aspect of driving.

 

Looking at the tread patterns on the Tyre Reviews video, it seems to me that all these tyres are directional.  Thus I think two spares would be needed, or am I wrong?  So, if not wanting a space saver, I'd have to go for a fittable anywhere, appropriate, summer tyre.  No mention of this in the reviews nor whether the tyres are XL or not (I think most are), nor if they have rim protection.  Also no statement if assymetric (however,  those that look as though they are from their tread patterns, seem to have circumferential lines printed on the tread).

 

 

[Ootohere]

A Spare wheel is there for emergencies and might not match the 4 tyres on the car anyway, wheel steel not allow, different width and diameter and a Space Saving or Space Saver tyre.

 

If you do have a Spare Wheel that matches the 4 on the car and a matching tyre, but the tyres are directional then if you need to fit the spare and it has a directional tyre there is a 50% chance you have the correct one.

If not, fit the spare, slow down until you repair the puncture or replace the tyre. 

 

PS

Road surfaces in the UK are not the same in towns, cities, country roads or motorways, dual carriageways in the same counties around the UK let alone in the 4 countries of the UK, or the south, north, east, west or central. 

 

Noise from tyres is more than about rough roads or broken surface roads.

?

How fast are you going on a road with broken surfaces, or cobbles or asphalt or whatever finished surface the road hus.

Ones with plenty grip and water draining or those that are smoother and with less grip / traction or maybe more.

Edited 24 October, 2022 by roottoot

[croquemonsieur]

5th paragraph correction - the summer tyres were poor in snow but very good in wet

 

Yes roottoot, that's probably the best way to look at it.  I might even go for a much narrower full size spare that would give me maybe an extra 1" boot depth.  Anyway, it looks like Michelins 2s could be the tyre for you.

[Ootohere]

@croquemonsieurI have Cross Climate SUV's on my 4x4, pretty crap on snow, Cross Climate + on my Petrol auto which are good and Michelin Alpin 6 on my Corsa Electric which are great.

So i am sorted.

Pity i hit a big pothole on a pretty flooded road the other day and have a bulged sidewall and will need to replace a pair of Alpin 6's as the other one has a sliced cut on it. 

 

When roads are ploughed and gritted All Seasons are fine, even sometimes on fresh snow but i prefer to know as long as i can get out on the road i can move as long as the snow is not too deep. 

 

 

Edited 24 October, 2022 by roottoot

[croquemonsieur]

Another correction in 4th paragraph.  My maths was wrong, serves me right for trying to be clever.

 

Calculated extra mpg over the best in Tyre Reviews - He said the 20% difference in rolling resistance between best & worst equates to 7% economy difference.  So......

 

Assuming best tyre (Bridgestone Weather Control) gives 40mpg overall, the Michelin would do 39.5mpg, Goodyear, 38.8mpg, Hankook 38.3mpg & Vredstein 37.2mpg

So Hankook's drop in economy now looks a bit more than the Michelin 2's (1.2mpg), compared to what I said previously (0.6mpg).

 

Re the xClimates roottoot. Presumably your's are more like the former xClimates or the +s.  Tyre Reviews did say that these older versions, were more like dry weather tyres (they came out best here in older AW reviews) that could cope with snow but not as well as winter tyres, nor some other emerging all weather tyres.  The xClimate 2s are rather different, now more like full blooded winter tyres (as good as many of them in the snow) but not as good as some of the current AW competion in the dry.  However,they're good at braking in all situations.

[Ootohere]

@croquemonsieurWhere are you driving, and do you bother more about saving a few quid on fuel than grip / safety.

Are you fitting then to a car you are keeping for a few years?

You can get good tyres and economy and any saving can be made by not paying too much for the tyres. 

 

I just ordered a pair of BF Goodrich G-Force Winter 2 tyres to fit. 

I have used these in the past and they were good and they are well priced, as in inexpensive. 

 

PS

@ ATS Euromaster long delivery dates showing for All-Season & Winter Tyres. 

December for many before becoming available.  Alpin 6 were 13th December.

Even the BF Goodrich G-Force Winter 2 were showing not available on the Tyre Centre Computer until late November.  

 

Cheaper on-line anyway on the ATS Euromaster website fitted than the Centre can offer.

Ordered online, and fitting booked for Monday Morning.

 

Maybe i will get a phone call yet saying they will be delayed but the payment is already taken off my card. 

Edited 24 October, 2022 by roottoot

[croquemonsieur]

I noted in an earlier message today that I'm in SE UK and to your 2nd question of course not.  For me a theoretical 1.2 mpg better going for Michelins rather than Hankooks = £35-£50 saving a year in petrol - not a lot in the grand scheme of things & car ownership costs, but Hankooks anyway rather cheaper to buy.  In the weather conditions down here, Hancocks arguably offer the best grip and safety performance of any tyre overall, even if they do pollute more than the Michelins.

 

I'll probably change tyres early next year and from what you say about AW availability, looks like that may be a good time.

[Carlston]

8 hours ago, roottoot said:

...do you bother more about saving a few quid on fuel than grip / safety...

 

More grip doesn't necessarily increase safety because of driver psychology.

 

Give a driver more performance and they will often use that performance and have more accidents.

 

Edited 24 October, 2022 by Carlston

[Schtum]

32 minutes ago, Carlston said:

 

More grip doesn't necessarily increase safety because of driver psychology.

 

Give a driver more performance and they will often use that performance and have more accidents.

 

 

I suspect that rather than simply being down to relative adhesion levels, the breakaway characteristics of a tyre will have a greater influence on both driver behaviour and safety.  

 

A tyre which grips like the proverbial and then lets go all of a sudden is more likely to induce uncontrolled sliding behaviour than one which has a more progressive breakaway. 

Edited 24 October, 2022 by Schtum

[Ootohere]

@Carlston drivers that drive everyday and week and year are ether prone to drive like plonkers or boy / girl racers at times but i hardly think that they become a nutter just because the car they are driving has tyres with a bit more grip that gets safely down the road or to a stop at the speed they drive.

 

Actually it is maybe when they find the back end can go out and the can control it that they might give it a go.

Otherwise it is just about getting does the road and back again without hitting a kerb, a ditch or another living being. 

 

It is you that is an evangelist for narrower tyres on smaller rims. 

A bit like those motoring journalists that seemingly think they are driving gods and a GT86 /BRZ was the dogs dangles because you had crap traction at the rear. 

[SurreyJohn]

The test that I find interesting is the one done in wet at +8c and which includes Bridgestone Potenza sport and blizzak LM005 as named summer and winter tyres

https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2022-Sport-Auto-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm
 

Just goes to show that in cold rain (which UK gets lots of Nov-March) better off having all season tyres than tyres for cruising down the autoroute de soleil at 30+c

 

It is noticeable how grip on my Pirelli P7s falls off in wet below about +11c, even though they do well in summer tyre tests which are probably done at 15c+.  
 

Before anyone asks I run a winter set currently (which was best option 4 years ago), but if I was replacing tyres now would probably get cross climate 2 (now they have increased available sizes to include 215/45 R18)

 

 

[croquemonsieur]

Schtum said -- A tyre which grips like the proverbial and then lets go all of a sudden is more likely to induce uncontrolled sliding behaviour.

 

Yes, to put it another way, the issue is ultimate roadholding v handling at those limits.  The video in Tyre Reviews is well worth watching as it does talk a lot about such handling aspects as well as lap times.  It did note in some tests that the easiest & nicest to drive with tyres (e.g. Continental & Goodyear in the wet), weren't always quite the fastest around the circuit (but certainly not the slowest).  However, in the snow test, the clearly fastest round the track was also probably the best handling. (Yet, this Michelin tyre clearly wasn't the best at roadholding in the wet and also didn't handle that nicely in such weather).

 

No reviews I've seen talk about handling over poor road surfaces.  I've had experience of 2 cars with low profile tyres that felt dreadful in the stearing on broken road surfaces.  One I owned, a Saab 9-5 and fine on smooth roads, but I soon fitted higher profile & I think slightly narrower tyres on smaller wheels and the steering then felt a lot better, more like my previous BMW 523.  But of course a car's suspension has an influence here and whether it can cope with low profile tyres on such roads.

 

One thing I do notice when walking along the pavement, is that big heavy cars with wide tyres sound particularly noisy on coarser road surfaces.  The external road noise seems to stand out.  Must be maddening if you live on a main road.

[nta16]

Please note - I am not a mechanic or expert in anything.

 

2 hours ago, croquemonsieur said:

One thing I do notice when walking along the pavement, is that big heavy cars with wide tyres sound particularly noisy on coarser road surfaces.  The external road noise seems to stand out.  Must be maddening if you live on a main road.

Same with smaller modern cars.  Also think of the bits that come off these wider tyres and go into the local environment.

 

The fashion for many decades has been to have wide wheels (often wider than needed), bigger wheels "to fill the wheel arch" (often bigger than needed), wide tyres to fit the wide wheels (often wider than needed) and of course ultra low ratio tyres (often much lower profile than needed).  But that's fashion for yer, then of course there's the element of 'mine's bigger than yours'.

 

Modern cars are a heavier of course, some a lot heavier, VW particularly seem to like to have their models with plenty of weight, but still most have wheels bigger than really required on many model versions.

 

I am very biased though having had old over-priced and over-valued old cars for the last 30+ years as "dailies", the last having 13"x5"  wheels 😲 with 145 or 155/80r13 tyres,  😲 the previous version had my preferred 3.5" wheels  😲 😲 on 145/80r13 tyres, of course neither of these where particularly overweight old cars let alone overweight moderns.  My heavy car had 185(80) r14 tyres for it's performance (torque) too.

 

Well that's my (oversized) bellyache over I'll get off of my (hobby) horse and drink my milk. 🙃 

 

Edited 25 October, 2022 by nta16
ETA: Please note - I am not a mechanic or expert in anything.

[kodiaqsportline]

On 24/10/2022 at 23:04, Carlston said:

 

More grip doesn't necessarily increase safety because of driver psychology.

 

Give a driver more performance and they will often use that performance and have more accidents.

 

 

Using that logic are you saying it safer having a sharp pointed spike mounted in the centre of a steering wheel rather than an airbag?

 

When folk bring psychology and saving 1.2mpg in to the equation, they come over to me as scraping the bottom of the barrel to prolong a discussion. It's the Briskoda version of the filibuster.

 

 

 

 

[Carlston]

6 hours ago, kodiaqsportline said:

Using that logic are you saying it safer having a sharp pointed spike mounted in the centre of a steering wheel rather than an airbag?

 

A GTI has wider tyres, bigger brakes, and stiffer suspension than the plain vanilla version so it can go round corners quicker and stop quicker. However, the actuary who works out the risk for the insurance company will tell you that the GTI is a higher risk even though it has higher performance. Clearly, in general the person driving the GTI isn't using the extra performance to give him a bigger safety margin but is often driving faster and with reduced safety margins...and hence more accidents and the corresponding higher insurance premiums.

 

Edited 26 October, 2022 by Carlston

[Ootohere]

 

People driving UK roads with corners and bends are in 60 MPH speed limits and just follow others or keep up with traffic.

*There are Motoways and Dual Carriageways with bends in them where a 70 mph limit comes down to a restricted 50 mph.

in Scotland anyway.*

 

Drivers  have no idea what the cars / vans in front or behind have fitted, performance /sport tyres, or eco, all season, winter, bald with the core showing.

Drivers often have no idea what tyres they are driving have.

(eg Skoda Superb's being common for this.)

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/507858-car-wheel-alignment

Thankfully some do catch tyres wearing early and not just when a car is serviced or in for a MOT.

 

These UK roads are mostly the same roads as we have driven for 50 plus years and back then on crap tyres often and the cars were maybe only 45 bhp and up and we did the same speeds in the corners.

 

Lots here have driven from young on narrow tyres, FWD or RWD or AWD, and fatter tyres, crap tyres and good tyres and company cars with what ever they get on them.

Police & Emergency Services also get given what ever to drive on, often that is ECO tyres, Summer Tyres to drive in all seasons of the UK.

 

Car insurance can be more expensive for a sporty, car thief magnet or for city dwellers. or certain jobs, ages etc.

 

Lots of us pay almost nothing in Insurance these days regardless of what we drive, power, tyres etc.  Even paying less for new cars compared to old.

 

@CarlstonWhat car do you drive, and is this in the UK?

Edited 26 October, 2022 by roottoot

[Carlston]

10 minutes ago, roottoot said:

@CarlstonWhat car do you drive, and is this in the UK?

 

I would like to drive a Skoda hybrid that hasn't been invented yet. It would have a 650cc 2 cylinder turbo petrol engine with 75PS and maximum torque produced from 1,600rpm. The electric motor would also have 75PS making a total power of 150PS. 0-100km/h in 8 seconds. The battery pack on its own would give a range of 500 kilometers. On petrol power alone its fuel consumption wouldn't be more than 4l/km at a constant 80km/h.

[Ootohere]

@Carlston

Are you driving elsewhere than in the UK then  or are you just a metric person?

 

You can find similar from companies that VW partner with to get the Fleet Average C02 to save them being imposed penalties. 

They come as cars / taxis and vans.

 

Not quite that range  yet from them, but they will get there.  But they will be heavy.

 

They will come with tyres that will have pathetic grip / traction from reduced friction on anything other than dry / warm roads.

Not necessarily narrow tyres, they might even be staggered if rear wheel drive. 

 

The tech is tried and tested the batteries just need more development.

 

 

 

 

Edited 26 October, 2022 by roottoot

[ArisaigDavid]

On 24/10/2022 at 12:18, roottoot said:

If you do have a Spare Wheel that matches the 4 on the car and a matching tyre, but the tyres are directional then if you need to fit the spare and it has a directional tyre there is a 50% chance you have the correct one.

If not, fit the spare, slow down until you repair the puncture or replace the tyre. 

For what it's worth, I have summer tyres in the summer, winter tyres in the winter, and a full-size spare wheel with a 235/45 18 non-directional Michelin Pilot Alpin winter tyre in the boot. My logic, correct or otherwise, is that the delicate sensibilities of the Haldex (or front diff, on FWD) will be less offended by the grip difference between one winter tyre and three summers in the summer than they would have been by one summer tyre and three winters in the winter

[croquemonsieur]

Hot on the heals of the Tyre Reviews & Auto-Biold tests, the Auro Express tests have been published a bit sooner than I expected.  Last year they looked at 205/55R16 tyres, not far off the 215/60R16s I intend to buy.  this year it's a lower profile 225/45R17 size, tested on Golfs again, as do Tyre Reviews.  No matter the change in size, the Hancock Kinergy 4S2 came top overall again & this year they managed to include the XClimate 2s which came 2nd.

 

The 4S2 came in the top 3 ratings in all snow/wet/dry ratings & they particularly liked the handling, feeling sharper to drive than most on test. Predictably the Michelin beat it on snow, but latter not so good in the wet.  Although one of the noisiest externally (72dB) the Hancock was the quietest inside, so if I buy these tyres I'll keep the windows shut, which I mostly do anyway.  Some other tyres inside that are quiet inside were also quiet outside (70dB) so the official external noise figures are meaningless for internal noise comparisons, but if you're  more concerned about annoying pedestrians etc...... but then not many motorists are!!!!  This time the noise test included driving on rough and concrete surfaces (presumably with expansion joints that typically create a mild thump) as well as smooth that they only tried last year, which is encouraging.  As expected, rolling resistance was the Hancock low point, which according to there guidlines would mean a 3/4mpg for me going for the Michelin that came out top here.  Not worth worrying about.

[Dieselgate]

I live in the south east UK and thinking to go for all seasons during the winter as we don't normally get too much cold weather but a bit unsure which would be best to go for.

The Hankook looks a pretty good bet but just slightly concerned about the high rolling resistance on it as mpg is reasonably important to me. Is this likely to make much difference versus those with a slightly better rating in this area?