Hi there

What causes a Skoda diesel turbo unit to fail, and what can I check to prevent a failure happening again to me? The only things I can think of are:

1. Oil Pump Hex drive (not sure if it's even relevant on my CFHC engine)?
2. Fuel filter
3. Air filter
4. Poor oil/engine maintenance history (I bought car 2nd hand)
5. old age (that's my excuse anyway)

 

1), 2) & 3) seem like something I can do something about.

 

Having done 144,000 km, I recently replaced the turbo unit on my Scout TDI after braking down 500km from home... I think the job done by the local mechanic was thorough...

• Took the front of the car off to take the engine out
• Replaced the Turbo unit (reconditioned Borg Warner - no one had a new unit - I even check Germany)
• Cleaned the Exhaust/DPF (was full of oil)
• Replace the O2 lambda sensor (it was shot)
• Cleaned & tested the intercooler (was full of oil)
• Replaced the oil lines x 2 & banjo bolts to the Turbo unit

 

I also got him to replace the timing belt, tensioner & water pump, as they were past due, and I thought "While you're down there..."

 

I've done 2000km since and it has driven really well - improved performance and economy.

 

However, today, having gone maybe 3km at 50km/h, I was pulling away at an intersection and noticed a bit of white smoke from the exhaust! Aaagh not again! The only thing I could notice was that the tone of the exhaust seemed deeper at the time - like it was resonating or something. The smoke hasn't persisted.

Anyway, my mind went back to the conversations with the local mechanic and my Skoda specialist in Sydney. Both were clear that we needed to find out the root cause of the turbo failure. It's come back to me after today's observation.

 

Any thoughts as to what I could look to? Seems like a needle in the haystack thing.

 

Many thanks, and have a great Christmas 😀

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

90,000 miles as an average is pretty early for turbo failure. There are lots of different variables that can determine the life of a turbo, the biggest being mileage followed by oil quality.

 

Oil in the DPF suggests the seals were leaking.

 

Fixed service intervals (10,000 miles / 15,000 km or 12 months, whichever is reached first) are best for engine and turbo life, assuming the correct specification oil is used (VW 507.00).

 

If the DPF has been contaminated with engine oil, and given the fact it's a 100,000 mile / 10 year old car then it is very likely it is shot. Depending on how your mechanic has "cleaned" it will likely mean the fix is short term. 

 

White exhaust smoke is unburnt fuel, a common warning sign for a struggling Diesel Particulate Filter.

 

I'm not sure what the legislation is over in Australia, here in the UK the DPF has to remain fitted and operational, but if you can a full DPF delete would be a good starting point.

"Honest John" regularly warns turbo users to let their cars idle after a high speed run to allow turbo to cool before switching off.

The turbo will cook its lubrication oil if turned off when very hot - eg at refuel or coffee stop on motorway services.

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/ is very good site.

His UK "Saturday Telegraph" section is a must read for me, over my boiled egg😀

Hope this helps

Geoff 

Hello again

The plot thickens... Over Christmas, I checked the oil and found the level to be way too high. I recalled that before the turbo failed, a mechanic had checked the oil level in passing as a courtesy, and commented that the level was too high. He drained maybe 1/2 a litre. He said that too much oil is as bad a not enough in a diesel...

 

I had this checked last week by my regular Skoda mechanic. He finished up draining 1 to 1.5 litres to get the oil level to an acceptable level (attached). Now the question is why was the level so high on two occasions? I reckon the oil reeks of volatiles - which my other diesel Skoda Yeti does not.

 

I get occasional white smoke when the engine is cool.

 

We decided to check the return on the fuel injectors. See below. We see that injector 1 has far less returned than injectors 2-4. Does this suggest that there is extra fuel getting in to Cylinder 1?

 

Another thought (maybe more likely?) is that the high pressure fuel pump, mounted on the engine, is leaking diesel into the block.

 

Anyway, we've sent a sample of oil off to see if there is a high proportion of volatiles in the oil. This would point to a reason why the sump becomes over full, and poor quality oil/diesel wouldn't be great for turbo life.

 

Will keep you posted.

 

As I remember from the Mazda 6 forums, the DPF fails to regenerate properly and the excess diesel gets drained into the sump, hence your rising oil level. This is a combination of short runs and aging DPF. Too high an oil level then gives you problems from excess crankcase pressure or cavitation and air in the oil feed starving your bearings. Not good for crank or turbo. 

The heads on the 2.0 16V CFHC series engines don't experience the same injector wear and tear as the PD engines, so my monies on the high pressure pump - had a habit of doing the same on PD engines.... The PD unit could be rebuilt with a kit - not sure about the later generation units.

 

White smoke is usually unburnt diesel - could possibly be from a bad injector perhaps dribbling excess fuel, not really sure how the dpf regen process adds the extra fuel, or it can get back to the sump, the dpf is higher so I suppose gravity is a possibility, mine stank to the high heavens when in regen...

 

 

Repeated interrupted DPF regenerations will eventually result in increased oil levels.

 

Leaky injectors too.

 

Either way dilluting your engine oil with diesel fuel is not good, bore wash will end in tears.

Ah the gift that keeps giving (or taking)...

 

I'm still chasing this white exhaust smoke/possible oil contamination in the sump/whatever caused the turbo to fail in the first place thing.

 

Had it serviced this week (150,000km). The fuel filter and air filters were replaced (see photo of offending item).

 

I'm not sure what the difference is between my fuel pump and a "PD" fuel pump mentioned by Stevie D, above. And given the mechanic only deals with VW, Skoda and Audi, I have to have some faith in his determination that it's probably not the fuel pump in this case. We discussed replacing the fuel pump, but he said the pump on this engine would not leak fuel into the sump (there's another type of pump that might), so we discounted replacing that, and opted to replace the injector to cylinder #1 instead (see above photo - LHS is the fuel delivered on #1 cylinder).

 

I drove about 6km this morning in it (engine temp was 53C), and parked on the hill with the windows down and the engine on, i could really smell a strong diesel smell coming from outside. Then when I accelerated up the hill, there were clouds of white smoke out the back. The diesel smell and clouds of unburnt fuel is obvious enough. My young son was very embarrassed... "Dad, that's not right."

 

Silver1011 suggests the DPF. Recall that the first thing I did after I bought the car was fix the reported engine error P040100, which resulted in the EGR valve & cooler being replaced. Not sure of any relationship but shortly after that, the turbo blew up on a country trip... Methinks the problem lurks in the workings on the exhaust side of the engine, more than inlet side of things - EGR cooler + turbo + toasted lambda sensor are symptoms of ... what? The injector thing was just 'noise' and not really related to the smoke problem.

 

Am I conflating the white smoke problem and the turbo failure? Struggling for ideas. Your thoughts and experience are gratefully received.

 

Hi, saw this posting and wondered if you ever got to the bottom of the problem and found out what was causing the white smoke? I have a 2012 Octavia Estate with the the same engine code, turbo went and my garage more or less did the same sort of job, although I do admit they did not 'clean' the DPF other than carry out a couple of service regenerations and taking the car out on a couple of test runs to induce regeneration. Did notice that your Lamda Sensor was shot as they found that with mine as it was giving out real weird readings. Since then I have carried out a 'chemical clean' of the unit using the JML 2 stage system, reset the values with VCDS and all was well for a couple of days but is now back to producing white smoke when running about town but not when out on the motorway or fast roads.

Hi Ronnie, thanks for the post, and commiserations - what you've described is exactly my situation.

 

After yesterday's post, I took the suggestion of taking it for a run, so headed up the motorway. Leaving home in the morning, I was again disappointed to see clouds of white smoke while the engine was cool - for instance accelerating from the lights. After it got to about 60C the symptoms cleared. Feeling brave, I drove on the motorway for 100km, driving at about 110km/h in 4th or 5th gear. It went faultlessly, though there was no sign of a regen occurring - no clouds of smoke or anything on the trip.

 

I'll see tomorrow if there is a similar behaviour when cold, and if my head was the only thing that benefited from the country drive.

 

So my next consideration would be to replace the DPF. Probably another expensive exercise, that may not fix the problem. Someone mentioned deleting it altogether, but experience tells me not to go there again (a diesel Citroen... brrrr).

 

One question for you: My Octavia had the Skoda ECU 'fix' applied by the prior owner, after the VW Dieselgate sh*tfight a few years ago. Has yours had that done too? Could the 'fix' be responsible for our symptoms?

 

Either way, I wonder if applying something like a Superchip would improve the fuel burn situation when the engine was cold. I might contact them and see if they have ever encountered this behaviour. It's a long shot. https://www.superchips.com.au/skoda-octavia-103-tdi-ecu-tuning-remapping.html

 

Thanks again!

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't suggest remapping until you've figured out what's the cause of the white smoke.

 

If you're not loosing/using coolant, a quick google suggests over lean conditions will cause white smoke on a TDi whereas over fuelling gives black smoke. I'm no mechanic but I'd be checking for an air leak, possibly in the fuel system somewhere? Given both cars have had their turbos replaced, it feels like a good amount of pipework will have been disturbed so that's a good starting place.

 

A few places have also suggested drilling a hole in the bottom of the intercooler and releasing any oil build up then plugging the hole with a screw/bolt. It shouldn't be a problem as you've already had it inspected and cleaned.

 

Not sure how helpful it is but I also have a CFHC but it's never had the fix or it's turbo replaced. I can probably do some live logging with VCDS if it's helpful to compare to your own data?

 

Speaking of the fix, do you know exactly which ECU you've got? Assuming it's the same CFHC as mine, there are a few stock flash files available directly from Skoda.On my car VCDS currently shows:

Address 01: Engine (J623-CFHC)       Labels:. 03L-906-018-CFF.clb
   Part No SW: 03L 906 018 C    HW: 03L 906 018 BR
   Component: R4 2,0L EDC   H24 9813  
   Revision: 42H24---    Serial number:    

When I first bought the car, it had SW:7100 but I updated it using ODIS-e to SW:9813. This is the last pre-fix version I'm aware of for this ECU.

 

Amazingly, there are four different software versions with the fix suggesting they've had some issues... The versions are SW:9978, SW:9979, SW:9980 and SW:9981 so if you're not on the latest of these, it may also be contributing to your smoking.

Hi Langers, thanks for the post, this is great information.

 

I'll look into it and get back to you.

On 15/02/2020 at 11:45, cpt_kremin said:

The plot thickens... Over Christmas, I checked the oil and found the level to be way too high. I recalled that before the turbo failed, a mechanic had checked the oil level in passing as a courtesy, and commented that the level was too high. He drained maybe 1/2 a litre. He said that too much oil is as bad a not enough in a diesel...

 

I had this checked last week by my regular Skoda mechanic. He finished up draining 1 to 1.5 litres to get the oil level to an acceptable level (attached). Now the question is why was the level so high on two occasions? I reckon the oil reeks of volatiles - which my other diesel Skoda Yeti does not.

 

I get occasional white smoke when the engine is cool.

 

 

I don't know this engine, but...

 

'Oil way too high' means some fluid is getting in to the oil, unless it has been (dramatically) overfilled. If it smells like diesel, chances are it is diesel - the other option would be coolant and that would smell quite different.

 

Your picture of various levels (was this a leak off test, or a test with the injectors running normally?) shows pot #1 having the lowest level, therefore seems to be pointing the finger of blame towards 2, 3 and 4, but not 1 (if excess fuel through the injectors is the cause,which it may not be). 

 

If there is a real excess of diesel fuel, but it is still burning, you'll get black smoke. If you get an excess of fuel and it isn't burning, you'll get white/grey smoke. Coolant in the exhaust would also be white smoke, but you'd notice the loss of coolant. Eventually, And it wouldn't explain the smell of Diesel.

 

Now, I don't know how this engine does DPF regen; some engines do it by late injection and some use a fifth injector. The late injection systems were always felt to be the ones that caused the most issues with fuel dilution (fuel in the oil) but I guess the fifth injector ones could do it too, if it were really, really bad.

 

That it is happening when it is cold could be a clue; to get DPF regen to work correctly, you need some temperature, otherwise you just spray fuel in to the exhaust. Perhaps this is happening, because regen is being attempted too cold. I don't really know why that should happen, except to suggest that maybe a sensor is telling the engine management system that the engine is up to temperature at a time when it isn't (or cabling, or the ECU itself, or the fuel pump etc, etc), or fuel is leaking past an injector. A leak off test would be more sensitive to this than a normal operation test, so it would be good to get one of those done, if you haven't already.

12 hours ago, langers2k said:

I wouldn't suggest remapping until you've figured out what's the cause of the white smoke.

 

If you're not loosing/using coolant, a quick google suggests over lean conditions will cause white smoke on a TDi whereas over fuelling gives black smoke. I'm no mechanic but I'd be checking for an air leak, possibly in the fuel system somewhere? Given both cars have had their turbos replaced, it feels like a good amount of pipework will have been disturbed so that's a good starting place.

 

A few places have also suggested drilling a hole in the bottom of the intercooler and releasing any oil build up then plugging the hole with a screw/bolt. It shouldn't be a problem as you've already had it inspected and cleaned.

 

Not sure how helpful it is but I also have a CFHC but it's never had the fix or it's turbo replaced. I can probably do some live logging with VCDS if it's helpful to compare to your own data?

 

Speaking of the fix, do you know exactly which ECU you've got? Assuming it's the same CFHC as mine, there are a few stock flash files available directly from Skoda.On my car VCDS currently shows:

Address 01: Engine (J623-CFHC)       Labels:. 03L-906-018-CFF.clb
   Part No SW: 03L 906 018 C    HW: 03L 906 018 BR
   Component: R4 2,0L EDC   H24 9813  
   Revision: 42H24---    Serial number:    

When I first bought the car, it had SW:7100 but I updated it using ODIS-e to SW:9813. This is the last pre-fix version I'm aware of for this ECU.

 

Amazingly, there are four different software versions with the fix suggesting they've had some issues... The versions are SW:9978, SW:9979, SW:9980 and SW:9981 so if you're not on the latest of these, it may also be contributing to your smoking.

Hi langers2k, here the the engine info for my car:

 

Address 01: Engine (J623-CFHC)       Labels:. 03L-906-018-CFF.clb
   Part No SW: 03L 906 018 C    HW: 03L 906 018 BR
   Component: R4 2.0l TDI   H24 9978  
   Revision: 42H24---    Serial number:               
   Coding: 00190012042500080000
   Shop #: WSC 22007 210 00000
   ASAM Dataset: EV_ECM20TDI01103L906018C 003008
   ROD: EV_ECM20TDI01103L906018C.rod
   VCID: 2A0D056D4C7D279B2D6-807E

 

It looks like mine is on SW 9978?

 

Wonder if I need to speak with my Skoda Dealer about the software version? I am actually taking my Seat Alhambra in for it's first service in the near future and as they are also the Skoda Dealer can have a chat with them about it while I am there.

13 hours ago, cpt_kremin said:

Hi Ronnie, thanks for the post, and commiserations - what you've described is exactly my situation.

 

After yesterday's post, I took the suggestion of taking it for a run, so headed up the motorway. Leaving home in the morning, I was again disappointed to see clouds of white smoke while the engine was cool - for instance accelerating from the lights. After it got to about 60C the symptoms cleared. Feeling brave, I drove on the motorway for 100km, driving at about 110km/h in 4th or 5th gear. It went faultlessly, though there was no sign of a regen occurring - no clouds of smoke or anything on the trip.

 

I'll see tomorrow if there is a similar behaviour when cold, and if my head was the only thing that benefited from the country drive.

 

So my next consideration would be to replace the DPF. Probably another expensive exercise, that may not fix the problem. Someone mentioned deleting it altogether, but experience tells me not to go there again (a diesel Citroen... brrrr).

 

One question for you: My Octavia had the Skoda ECU 'fix' applied by the prior owner, after the VW Dieselgate sh*tfight a few years ago. Has yours had that done too? Could the 'fix' be responsible for our symptoms?

 

Either way, I wonder if applying something like a Superchip would improve the fuel burn situation when the engine was cold. I might contact them and see if they have ever encountered this behaviour. It's a long shot. https://www.superchips.com.au/skoda-octavia-103-tdi-ecu-tuning-remapping.html

 

Thanks again!

 

 

 

 

Hi, capt_kremin

 

I think mine has had the software 'fix' done at some point, before I got the car, but not sure if it is the latest update. Going into the dealer in the near future to have the first service on my Seat Alhambra so will have a word with them then 

 

Where you say about the white smoke when the engine is not up to temperature that is interesting because although mine shows the 90C on the dash, and I know it is 'just an indication' when the Temp Sensor reading is checked on VCDS it only shows 70C? Which although in theory is adequate for regeneration to take place it is not, what I would call, up to full temperature? I have also noticed on VCDS when attempting both a service regeneration and an on the road regeneration the Exhaust Temperature readings from the sensors don't quite come up to what you would expect during the regeneration process? I have seen a recent post about issues with the DPF Pressure Sensor that can cause the regeneration to fail or give a false reading leading to failure so going to look into that over the next few days.

Will update you if I have any luck with any part of it.

8 hours ago, ronnievincent said:

It looks like mine is on SW 9978?

 

Wonder if I need to speak with my Skoda Dealer about the software version? I am actually taking my Seat Alhambra in for it's first service in the near future and as they are also the Skoda Dealer can have a chat with them about it while I am there.

 

Correct, you're on the first version of the fix.

 

 

Good luck with the dealer, I think they tend to be cagey about stuff like this, even more so without a TPI/TSB. If you can get a TPI/TSB number it may help others

Hi all

So much interest here... I've never been this popular in my life :)

 

Remarkable that my ECU (9977) doesn't even rate a mention in Langer's list. What's the confidence level of Skoda getting an upgrade right, or even wanting to do an upgrade? Is there an alternative to Skoda doing it?

 

It seems a lot of contributors own a VCDS... I have to use my mechanic's one. Can you recommend one to buy?

 

Finally, if I were to log the VCDS, what readings would be most meaningful to capture, and for how long?

 

Sorry for all the questions, but the collective wisdom is appreciated.

 

Here is my ECU spec:

Address 01: Engine (J623-CFHC)       Labels:. 03L-906-018-CFF.clb

   Part No SW: 03L 906 018 DA    HW: 03L 906 018 BR

   Component: R4 2.0l TDI   H22 9977  

   Revision: 42H22---    Serial number:               

   Coding: 00190012042700080000

   Shop #: WSC 33248 959 00000

   ASAM Dataset: EV_ECM20TDI01103L906018DA 003006

   ROD: EV_ECM20TDI01103L906018C.rod

   VCID: EC94997207E8AAE647-80B8

13 minutes ago, cpt_kremin said:

Remarkable that my ECU (9977) doesn't even rate a mention in Langer's list. What's the confidence level of Skoda getting an upgrade right, or even wanting to do an upgrade? Is there an alternative to Skoda doing it?

 

You have a slightly different ECU in your CFHC. Stock flash files for 03L 906 018 DA include 9815, 9977, 9978 and 9979.

 

Skoda might take you to 9979 but I'd be more tempted to find a tuner or VCP/ODIS user to try and rollback to 9815 assuming the fix isn't madatory in Australia. If the former will do it for free, I'd try that first as a zero cost/low risk option.

 

A genuine hex-v2 is probably your best bet and there are a list of distributors here: https://www.ross-tech.com/distributors.php

 

Not too sure what's would be helpful to log but if you or your mechanic needed a base line it's something I can try and help with

Hello again.

I have contacted Skoda here in Aus, and they aren't keen to revert the ECU to the prior version. They may go to a later revision (9978 or 9979) but who knows what that will introduce. Apparently, reverting isn't something they do.

 

I am going down the path of a custom flash of the ecu from APR, with a local mob who distribute a solution. It has a 30 day warranty. I should know pretty quickly if this addresses my problem of regular Regen/unburned fuel on short trips. If it doesn't, I have an option to get my money back at least.

 

Keep you posted.

 

Thanks everyone for contributing.

Back again

I had the APR agent/European specialist mechanic take a look at the car today. I wanted him to look at the car with a view to installing an APR flash, to correct the random overfuelling/white smoke/high idle revs problem..

Of course we couldn't get it to do the white smoke/high idle speed thing at all.

 

He could see that there was a high soot reading (25g where 20g is the thresh-hold), so he forced a regen and gave it back to me.

We talked about the engine's compression ratios:

• c1 dry 23.98 bar
• c1 fuelled 29.6 bar
• c2 dry 22.35 bar
• c2 fuelled 29.03 bar
• c3 dry 24.69 bar
• c3 fuelled 29.24 bar
• c4 dry 23.58 bar
• c4 fuelled 28.75 bar

 

He said that the variation in the compression between wet & dry was about 80psi per cylinder which is significant, and that the engine was basically not worth applying the APR flash to.

He drained about 1/2 a litre of oil out of the sump, to get the level on the dipstick back to the 'top spot'. Note that this gain in sump 'oil' occurred over only 2800km :(

 

We talked about the possible routes for fuel to get into the sump, and it appears that via the cylinder rings is the only likely option.

 

Does anyone even rebuild engines anymore?

I'm sad and disappointed. Where to next?

Can you get Carla to post a video of your smoking sled?

 

If it's not overly dramatic or fails local emissions testing, just add injector cleaner at a more concentrated level than recommended and drive it like you stole it, otherwise it's sounding like it's beyond economical repair.

 

I'm sure others will disagree.