1.2 TSI Gearbox and clutch upgrade

[R44YVY]

I’ve got a 1.2tsi With a stage 2 remap running at 155bhp I’ve also upgraded to a 1.4 turbo out of a Leon FR. in the last couple of weeks I’ve started hearing knocking noises so I’ve taken it to the garage and my gearbox and clutch is damaged (probably because of the power increase). I was just wondering if anyone knows any or can recommend any uprated clutches and a gearbox.

 

cheers.

[CrisBora]

sachs makes a upgraded version for the 1.2

 

https://www.sachsperformance.com/es/kit-de-embrague/embrague-deportivo/skoda-fabia-iii-1-2-tsi-81kw

[TheFozzy]

The standard gearbox on the Fabia 1.2 is the MQ200, im guessing with the remap you're making close to 250nm of torque?  If so, look into an MQ250 or MQ300.  For these gearboxes, they should theoretically fit fine, however if not, you may need to remove the bell housing from your current gearbox and attach it to your new gearbox.

[FabiaGonzales]

On 12/08/2020 at 18:02, R44YVY said:

I’ve got a 1.2tsi With a stage 2 remap running at 155bhp I’ve also upgraded to a 1.4 turbo out of a Leon FR. in the last couple of weeks I’ve started hearing knocking noises so I’ve taken it to the garage and my gearbox and clutch is damaged (probably because of the power increase). I was just wondering if anyone knows any or can recommend any uprated clutches and a gearbox.

 

cheers.

 

I'm still running stock power, soon to be ~175ish & 250nm with remap and 1.4 turbo, getting a knocking noise when coasting in 5th gear (doesn't do it when on the power), clutch makes an awful creaking noise when pressing/releasing the pedal. I get gear whine generally through most gears except 4th which is the quietest gear. 5th is by far the noisiest gear.

 

Was looking for possible 6 speed upgrades (5 speed currently), but now i'm thinking it is needing a stronger box.

 

I've only done about 25k miles on this gearbox too. Previous one started having problems around 42k miles. I kinda want to know what is actually getting damaged, and if a stronger component could be used instead of a whole new box?

 

Anyway;

 

I've looked about and the most appropriate box i can find to replace it with is the NJU box from the 1.4TSI, it's MQ350, so it'd be fine if you ever did a swap to a 1.4tsi block too.

There's a similar box, QQR, but that is normally paired with the 1.8TSI, and may or may not have the same mounting holes as ours.

 

The 1.2 and 1.4TSI engines should have the same mounting holes, so the NJU box *should* drop straight in.

 

Edit: Might be a bit more hassle than originally thought, the clutch for the 1.4tsi is 240mm diameter, but only 220mm on the 1.2tsi. If the flywheel is a different size, that might be an issue, looking  at that now.

 

Edit 2: The 150ps 1.4TSI polo comes with a dual mass flywheel, the 1.2TSI only uses a single mass flywheel, so it's an unknown, but..

It looks like they should be compatible, they have the same tooth count, the friction face is recessed slightly on the DMF and raised slightly on the SMF, pointing toward them ultimately having the same distance from engine-gearbox.

So it might be a straight swap keeping the original smaller clutch, or you might have to put on the full DMF and clutch kit from the 1.4 too.

If you kept the smaller clutch and SMF, that'd leave you looking at the organic 4 paddle clutch from sachs, which from their cryptic text seems to have 380nm of torque capacity with stock pressure plate, and more with the performance pressure plate.

It may be that you could get away with the performance synthetic clutch which supposedly around 240nm from what i can find. Their site is horrible!

Edited 15 August, 2020 by FabiaGonzales

[rum4mo]

I get the impression that that family of gearboxes fitted to 1.2TSI 16V  Fabia/Polo/Ibiza/A? both the 5 speed and 6 speed, seem to be a bit "cut price" and maybe also the clutch assembly, going by some of the comments/posts flying around. The 6 speed in my wife's 1.2TSI 16V 110PS 2015 Polo was okay until I handed it in for the second time complaining about the drive drive clunking/shunting noises due to the upper gearbox mounting being apparently failed or inadequate, first time they did as VW advised, which was to remove that bonded mounting slap what looked like copperease all over it and refitted it, when that fix only lasted a few weeks, they removed that failed or inadequate mounting and replaced it with the TDI equivalent, that sorted all my previous issues out and still has, but when driving the car away from my dealer, after that warranty fix, the gearbox whine in 1st and 2nd was very obvious as with time has become other gearbox noises. I fully expect to need to either get that gearbox sorted while we own that car, or find a better box from somewhere else - source as yet unknown!

I'll watch your progress with interest, do Getrac or anyone else supply a sensible gearbox for these cars at a sensible price, no straight cut stuff, just higher durability and maybe higher power/torque rating?

[FabiaGonzales]

9 hours ago, rum4mo said:

I get the impression that that family of gearboxes fitted to 1.2TSI 16V  Fabia/Polo/Ibiza/A? both the 5 speed and 6 speed, seem to be a bit "cut price" and maybe also the clutch assembly, going by some of the comments/posts flying around. The 6 speed in my wife's 1.2TSI 16V 110PS 2015 Polo was okay until I handed it in for the second time complaining about the drive drive clunking/shunting noises due to the upper gearbox mounting being apparently failed or inadequate, first time they did as VW advised, which was to remove that bonded mounting slap what looked like copperease all over it and refitted it, when that fix only lasted a few weeks, they removed that failed or inadequate mounting and replaced it with the TDI equivalent, that sorted all my previous issues out and still has, but when driving the car away from my dealer, after that warranty fix, the gearbox whine in 1st and 2nd was very obvious as with time has become other gearbox noises. I fully expect to need to either get that gearbox sorted while we own that car, or find a better box from somewhere else - source as yet unknown!

I'll watch your progress with interest, do Getrac or anyone else supply a sensible gearbox for these cars at a sensible price, no straight cut stuff, just higher durability and maybe higher power/torque rating?

My "new" clutch doesn't seem to have lasted amazingly either, It was replaced at the same time as the gearbox @ 52k miles, (i put 42k earlier but realised that was incorrect, ive had this gearbox and clutch for only 15k miles!) the clutch biting point is very high, when it was in for MOT last month, i was told that it's fine and nothing to worry about (i guess, "if it doesn't slip it's fine" comes to mind there), but it's often a little difficult to have smooth shifts.

 

Initially for the first couple thousand miles there was heavy gearbox whine especially in 2nd gear, as the box was run in it quietened down to what i considered normal; 1st gear no noticable whine (engine drowned it out i suspect) unless i held the clutch in while moving in gear, 2nd gear only whined at light loads at low speeds (like 15-25mph), 3rd gear from about 20-25mph again on only very light loads, 4th was silent, and 5th was also for the most part silent except for on particularly cold days when i'd barely set off driving.

 

I've now noticed that there's a lot of drivetrain backlash if im trundling along at 30-35mph in 5th gear and lightly apply and release throttle, which doesn't feel too pleasant nor sound great, 5th also makes a very easily reproducible hammering knocking sound when coasting, the noise dissapears when there's load, it's most noticeable 2k rpm and below, and now will often whine while accelerating too. Occasionally other gears will also whine.
 

I don't drive too economically, but even though my engine sees the upper end of 5000rpm fairly often, i don't hard shift it, i wait for revs to drop first, making the clutch do as little work as possible, and on upshifts i rev match, specifically aiming to prolong the life of the clutch while driving spiritedly, and the gearbox still gets damage, and it's only on stock 90PS 160NM map too..

 

The particular gearboxes can be found for a couple hundred quid, sometimes much less (ive seen one sell for £85 on ebay!) and if you have/know/are a decent mechanic, they should be able to get it in and out quite quickly for you. That's if there's nothing else that can be put in instead - which i will look into.

 

The 02T boxes what our 5/6speed is based on have hollow shafts on both input and output sides. I'm thinking if this heats up on a particular gear (looking at nobody in particular who likes to set cruise control at 95mph on a long motorway journey and just sit back) it could potentially warp it by a fraction of a milimeter which would be enough to start some irregular wear pattern. I'm no gearbox expert, but what are gearboxes rated at, peak torque input or sustained torque input? I'd imagine the sustained torque rating is possibly much lower than the peak rating due to heat buildup in bearings and the gears themselves 

[FabiaGonzales]

Update on my gearbox:

It's going into my local mechanic shop tomorrow to have 5th gear removed. It's well and truely died, within about 5 seconds 5th gear completely gave up the ghost and is unusable and parts of it are rattling around the box.

 

I'll update again tomorrow with pictures of what's left of 5th gear once it's all extracted from the gearbox.

Edited 19 August, 2020 by FabiaGonzales

[TheFozzy]

13 hours ago, FabiaGonzales said:

Update on my gearbox:

It's going into my local mechanic shop tomorrow to have 5th gear removed. It's well and truely died, within about 5 seconds 5th gear completely gave up the ghost and is unusable and parts of it are rattling around the box.

 

I'll update again tomorrow with pictures of what's left of 5th gear once it's all extracted from the gearbox.

I'm interested to see what's happened to your gearbox, you're still on the stock 90bhp right?

 

I've never had an issue with my gearbox, though I have had some clutch slip when doing a hard pull.  As far as I'm aware, its still on the original gearbox, had 64k miles on the clock when I bought it and now has 86k after a year.  However I do have the 6 speed instead of the 5 speed so I'm curious if the 6 speed has a higher build quality or better parts.

[FabiaGonzales]

55 minutes ago, TheFozzy said:

I'm interested to see what's happened to your gearbox, you're still on the stock 90bhp right?

 

I've never had an issue with my gearbox, though I have had some clutch slip when doing a hard pull.  As far as I'm aware, its still on the original gearbox, had 64k miles on the clock when I bought it and now has 86k after a year.  However I do have the 6 speed instead of the 5 speed so I'm curious if the 6 speed has a higher build quality or better parts.

Yeah i'm still on the stock 90ps map, i was unable to locate a nearby garage that was willing or that could fit it in, so i've ended up taking it to my dealership, i'll see if i can get pictures from them if possible. With a bit of luck, it might even be covered under the extended warranty that the gearbox was originally replaced under. Only just made it to the dealership, it went with a big clang as i rolled up to a stop in the parking spot!

 

If i do have it done under warranty, i might get them to put in that 4 paddle organic clutch thats rated like 380nm. Hopefully that won't slip 😂

 

The 6 speed has an extra pair of bearings that support the ends of the input/output shafts so the 5th and 6th gears are supported by bearings at both sides, whilst the 5 speed does not, it's hanging off the end basically, with extra load going through that one main bearing that would be supported by two bearings in 6spd box.

 

My guess is that over time, sustained torque wears that bearing more with increased heat which contributes to more play on 5th gear, which then goes into a downward spiral of debris and metal in the oil destroying stuff worse.

[FabiaGonzales]

On 20/08/2020 at 13:16, FabiaGonzales said:

Yeah i'm still on the stock 90ps map, i was unable to locate a nearby garage that was willing or that could fit it in, so i've ended up taking it to my dealership, i'll see if i can get pictures from them if possible. With a bit of luck, it might even be covered under the extended warranty that the gearbox was originally replaced under. Only just made it to the dealership, it went with a big clang as i rolled up to a stop in the parking spot!

 

If i do have it done under warranty, i might get them to put in that 4 paddle organic clutch thats rated like 380nm. Hopefully that won't slip 😂

 

The 6 speed has an extra pair of bearings that support the ends of the input/output shafts so the 5th and 6th gears are supported by bearings at both sides, whilst the 5 speed does not, it's hanging off the end basically, with extra load going through that one main bearing that would be supported by two bearings in 6spd box.

 

My guess is that over time, sustained torque wears that bearing more with increased heat which contributes to more play on 5th gear, which then goes into a downward spiral of debris and metal in the oil destroying stuff worse.

 

Update #2

 

Spoke to the dealership this morning, the oil was clean, with all the parts of 5th gear contained in that little area away from the rest of the gears. Aparently it's not possible to just remove 5th gear (personally i think otherwise that it is possible though).

They're doing a full strip down to see if there's similar damage to any of the other gears and to gather more information to try chase up warranty claims.

 

On a side note, i've a 1.0TSI 95PS loan car, other than it having no rattles, not super impressed with it, CarPlay stutters (i'll grab the model number of the head unit this evening), the tyres are LOUD (15" nexen economy things), there's a lot body roll in cornering, the car pitches and dives heavily when accelerating and braking, the handbrake is poor (rear drum brakes instead of discs), the seats are somehow even less supportive, the engine isn't particularly refined, it's sound dampened to the point where you can't hear the engine till it's around 3500-4000 rpm (good for some i guess), and i keep finding myself in the wrong gear wasting petrol, though i still managed about 4 mpg higher over 100 miles. The accelerator response is very nice though, much quicker and smoother than the 1.2TSI i find. Otherwise, it's like driving my own car where someone did an engine swap, stole some features, and swapped my wheels and suspension with some rather soft alternatives.

 

If all goes well with the gearbox and it's covered under warranty, the turbo will be getting mapped in shortly after, and i'll be looking at having a custom hose designed to replace the wierd plastic "manifold" piece between the air filter and the turbo, should help getting air into the turbo especially at high revs, and if i'm lucky, might give a tad more induction noise..

[AMD87]

On 15/08/2020 at 02:28, TheFozzy said:

The standard gearbox on the Fabia 1.2 is the MQ200, im guessing with the remap you're making close to 250nm of torque?  If so, look into an MQ250 or MQ300.  For these gearboxes, they should theoretically fit fine, however if not, you may need to remove the bell housing from your current gearbox and attach it to your new gearbox.

That’s transferable torque not what it’s limited to. I’m 600+ nm on a MQ250

[FabiaGonzales]

19 hours ago, AMD87 said:

That’s transferable torque not what it’s limited to. I’m 600+ nm on a MQ250

 

What does "transferable torque" convert to in terms of engine/wheel torque?

 

As far as i'm aware, it's the limit to the torque applied by the engine to the input shaft. Curious to know otherwise

[AMD87]

56 minutes ago, FabiaGonzales said:

 

What does "transferable torque" convert to in terms of engine/wheel torque?

 

As far as i'm aware, it's the limit to the torque applied by the engine to the input shaft. Curious to know otherwise

No idea someone I know who’s a well known race car builder tried to explain it to me but still didn’t sink in but I know it’s not the limit of the box. 

[FabiaGonzales]

On 24/08/2020 at 17:28, AMD87 said:

No idea someone I know who’s a well known race car builder tried to explain it to me but still didn’t sink in but I know it’s not the limit of the box. 

 

I doubt we'll ever really know what they rate it as, maybe 200mn, or 200ft/lbs, to last estimated 150k miles or 20 years idk. 

 

Update #3

 

Well I found out what had happened with my gearbox, a cracked tooth on 5th gear wore unevenly eventually failed with a big bang, destroying the needle bearings that allow the gears to float on the shafts, letting what remained of 5th gear flail about and disintegrate.

Luckily enough, since it's a new box which was originally replaced under warranty, it's covered under an extension of that warranty as a faulty replacement part, they mentioned it's normally 10k miles and 1 year, but being a manual gearbox, a failure at 15k miles and 18 months is not reasonable by any means!

 

Side note, it's having its cambelt changed too (might aswell while it's gone), so ill be getting the car back hopefully mid next week.

[Fab1493]

@R44YVY I am also thinking of getting the turbo from the 1.4 put in. Have you had yours mapped yet?

Correct me if Im wrong, but I believe youre running decat right? Whats noise level like?