2 minutes ago, e-Roottoot said:

Maybe it would help if there was something from what the VW salesperson said about which world region the unhappy customers are in and how they know the Heat Pump is not functioning properly.  The thing is with sales people is when we know they might be telling the truth or it is Chinese Whispers or they are about to get their books at the end of the month. 

He was specifically talking about UK customers. As Kenny alluded to, its a case of 'misold heatpump'. Unfortunately I wasn't fully paying attention to his yabber at the time, given he is a salesman. If we swing past the dealership at some point I'll see if I can get more info. I don't think this was them trying to incentivise us to buy as we'd we probably would gone with a heat pump if we went with the ID.4 (as we have with the Enyaq). Most likely Chinese whispers if anything, but interesting all the same if customers are complaining. Most likely a lack of understanding of the saleman and customers! 

Just seen Luckypants reply, that makes more sense. 

A UK owner just posted.  I wonder how many other UK owners have used their ID.4 over the past winter.  There certainly will be ones using AC in the past weeks. 

6 minutes ago, e-Roottoot said:

Cheers, hopefully they were cozy though even though not having an improved range.  I take it there were 2 identical vehicles being driven in convoy and one with heat pump and one without. Same weight in car and heat in cabin. 

Well the video you posted by Kris 'Battery Life' on 30th May where he and someone else with a heat pump drive their ID.3s together showing the increased range is not a lot is a starting point. Being a VW fan, Kris does not call them out directly.

 

Edited 22 July, 20214 yr by Luckypants
weird multi-post

I remember each and every video I watch or review I read.  Some I take with a pinch of salt.  Comparisons that are not like for like are dismissed by me though.  Group tests or comparisons more accurate in lots of cases.  Saying they drove this or that on this route and the temp was such and such means nothing unless the way the blogger in Norway does.  Tyres, pressures, ambient temp cabin temp and cars on a weigh bridge. 

At least with electricity you do not have octane to consider.  Even on this forum people complain about cars being serviced and getting worse fuel economy.  They do not know if they buy 97 or 99; super unleaded or just 95. No idea if their tyre pressures were changed. Fail to consider they fitted new tyres.  Do not do brim to brim or consider the weather and there heater AC setting.  Some are even professional drivers as in Taxi drivers.    There are car salespeople that are car enthusiasts but can not lecture customers or quiz them.  There are other that never pay for their fuel or now electric and are clueless. 

 

Edited 22 July, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

Doing a bit more Googling, it appears the price has been dropped recently to ~£1000 from ~£1250. Owners that paid the ~£1250 would likely be eligible for the ~£250 refund - certainly ID.3 owners have been told that. That must have been what Mr VW was on about. Skoda have charged us £1005 for the heat pump so that seems to be inline. Do feel like maybe we should have not gone for it, but this is a long term car for us and living in the Lakes it has been pretty chilly for a lot of the year, certainly more than when we lived down south! 

When I first looked at the Enyaq UK configurator, the heat pump was a £985 option. That was when I first noticed the bizarre ramblings from Skoda UK as to its purpose in life (the heat pump, not Skoda UK...).

 

The price was hiked sometime later on the Enyaq UK configurator.

 

How much of a 'virtual range extender' the heat pump is, has to be dependent on many factors.

 

According to the ID.3 heat pump tech info ( Heat Pump | Electric Car Software & Tech | Volkswagen UK ) it says:

 

'Efficiency:
The power requirement for heating the interior at exterior temperatures of less than 0°C is up to 40% less than in a vehicle without an energy-efficient heat pump.'

 

So, you need to know how much battery energy (range reduction) the non-heat pump car will use to warm the car interior to a specific temperature (they don't say what it is - max heat, 20 degC or whatever) and then then having a heat pump will, in theory, use 40% less than that - and that is only when the ambient air temp is below 0 degC.

 

In reality, in the UK, it probably isn't going to make a vast difference but as has been said, the only way to see is to run two 'identical' cars (one with, one without the heat pump) next to each other in sub zero conditions and see what happens. 

 

Still, it sounds like a good investment if you're selling heat pumps....

I think it is this 40% claimed reduction in energy use not materialising that has led to the compensation which is going on.

Edited 26 July, 20214 yr by Luckypants

But VW say 'up to 40%' and that is bordering on the immeasurable, in any case.

 

It isn't as though everyone is claiming compensation because their ICE powered (or indeed EV) vehicles don't match the manufacturer's brochure figures for range/fuel consumption....!

 

I'm not defending the heat pump marketing hype but at the end of the day, in reality it isn't much more than that.

Even if that 40% figure is accurate, that's hardly going to make a huge impact anyway - that's only 40% power saving for the heating of the car interior, not the overall power consumption of the car.

 

I have no idea how much the Enyaq consumes for heating the car interior from cold, but I do know that in the hot weather we've been having, the aircon maxed out at 2.5kWh/h on the consumables readout that replaces the instantaneous mi/KWh when the car is stopped. Which seems reasonable - 2.5kW of power being used to cool the car. I would expect heating to be much the same - that's a decent sized fan heater's worth of power - which I am sure would heat up an interior the size of a car relatively well. If that is made "40% more efficient" then it would be 1.5kW (or, to put it the odd way the car describes it, 1.5kWh/h). Or a saving of 1kWh/h. Not a massive amount. A journey of 30 miles in that hour might use up, say. 10kWh in that time (I'm using a 3 mi/kWh guess there for winter driving - you may get more). Overall you'd use 11.5kWh instead of 12.5kWh in that hour journey. So around 8-9% overall energy savings. Noticeable, but as long as you aren't needing the full range, I'm not sure it's worth the ~£1K outlay.

 

One of the videos I saw from Skoda UK quotes the heater is 6kW max. So you could save 2.5kW but you'll have a rather toasty cabin if you kept it on max for an even an hour! Maybe if you say you have it on half power, you'll save say 1kWh/h, so you're only looking at a handful of kW even on a long journey. 

Too many variables to claim anything.

 

Below 0*oC by how much ambient, -5 or -10.  then how much are you asking of the cars interior temp.  15*oC or 18*oC or 22*oC.

 

In Air con threads on this forum people speak of having aircon on older cars putting out 4*oC. 

People put the heating to 20*oC and maybe even 25*oC, or just to Full.

 

Personally 14*oC is the coldest i ever ask for and 18*oC the most i want.  Passengers might get 20*oC if they are nice, or they can put a coat on or a hat.

(My house heating thermostat stays at around 18*oC and never get put to above 20*oC)

 

Heated Seats & Steering wheel and 16-18*oC interior temp in a car in below freezing outside temps suits me.

 

Heating is not an issue as i find it in EV's or ICE vehicles it is steaming up and damp interiors and freezing up interiors when parked.

 

Plugging in an pre heating cars and drying out is fandabydozy.   Wind Deflectors a necessity for windows a little open.especially while charging in Blizzard like conditions, or rain or drizzle or just hot weather while staying in the car.

 

** When people might most need to heat cars when it is the coldest ambient temps there are countries on mainland Europe / Rest of the world or even Uk areas or Countries where Snow or Winter tyres will be fitted, that will impact range.

Then roof bars and Ski's or Boards or Bike carriers will affect range, just as adding a few hundred KG in passengers and stuff.**

 

 

Edited 26 July, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

What I got from Skoda reference the heat pump. Without the heat pump fitted both heating and A/C are run from the main power battery. With the heat pump fitted both heating and A/C are run by the heat pump which uses a fraction of the battery power compared to not having a heat pump. Therefore the capability to save up to 30% of battery power is available depending how hot or cold you run the car!

If VW say up to 40% and you get that it is up to 30% from Skoda then there is quite a difference.

 

'Up to' is like what 'Performance Air Filter' manufacturers say you might get in extra performance or Remappers / Tuning Box sellers say again about performance.

 

VW / Skoda / Audi / SEAT do the WLTP and that is not Real life as we know nothing about the actual interior temp during testing, but VW Group must know what the 'Average range increase' or power saving is achievable with a 'Heat Pump'.

 

Averages come from highs and lows and the bumff is just 'Up to 40%' or 'Up to 30%'.   So what is the lowest you might get?

 

http://insideevs.com/news/466416/volkswagen-winter-isnt-worry-id4

 

 

http://insideevs.com/news/460193/nextmove-heat-pump-vw-id3-less-efficient 

If Heat Pumps actually make them less efficient then that is an issue!     But then adding weight can do that.

 

......................................................................................................................................

Very far from the perfect test, different software and different wheels / tyres.

But then Dealerships or Manufacturers can very very easily find like for like, with just the HP difference, or can they, or will they?

 

 

Edited 26 July, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

Audi.

https://www.r744.com/audi-electric-suvs-offer-co2-mobile-heat-pump-to-boost-driving-range

 

Hi All,

 

Just getting ready to order the Enyaq on Monday if our test drive goes well.

 

Was looking at the head pump but from this thread it doesn't appear to be worth it, any change of opinion from anyone on this?

A heat pump is a more eficient way of  heating than direct electricity. Having a mechanical compressor it is also a potential point of failure. Ask yourself how often the temperature where you want to drive is going to be below 0C where the heat pump would be most effective then decide if the cost is worth it.

my freezer compressor lasted more than thirty years and so I would expect the heat pump to last too.

4 hours ago, Odin1123 said:

A heat pump is a more eficient way of  heating than direct electricity. Having a mechanical compressor it is also a potential point of failure. Ask yourself how often the temperature where you want to drive is going to be below 0C where the heat pump would be most effective then decide if the cost is worth it.

The efficiency reduces at low temperatures so I would expect better performances with A/C.

The heat pump is standard in some Nordic countries however.

I’m not convinced that in the UK there’s any need for a heat pump. To quote the manufacturer 

 

“Efficiency:
The power requirement for heating the interior at exterior temperatures of less than 0°C is up to 40% less than in a vehicle without an energy-efficient heat pump.

Range:
The reduced power requirement also reduces power consumption and thus increases battery capacity, which has a positive effect on the vehicle range. The exact nature of the effect on the vehicle range is also determined by your individual driving behaviour.

As a general rule: if the average speed is lower, the influence of the heating system will be higher and thus the positive influence of the energy-efficient heat pump on the total vehicle range will also be higher.”

 

I read that as it will use up to 40% less power than a vehicle without a heat pump. That’s up to 40% less of whatever power use is for heating and cooling, not an up to 40% reduction in total battery power used. And if you go slower the range will be higher……😮, ok !

 

Edited 2 October, 20214 yr by classic

Those that have actually used an Enyaq in cold weather are going to have the best idea.

Not many of those about then.

 

 

 

 

This is its first winter

@classicExactly.

Well there are friends in Norway where they got them into the Dealerships first and in time for some winter left. 

 

@BGB Might be able to comment.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/480548-skoda-enyaq/page/11

 

Edited 2 October, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

I was just having a bit of a Bank Holiday surf and I was pleased to see that the Enyaq configurator now has a half decent description of what the heat pump does.

 

Shame Skoda UK haven't proof read their words and sussed that 25°C is not exactly 'freezing'.