IV/GTE suspension

[MarkyG82]

Firstly, I know this is not a VW forum bit the knowledge in here is the best I've come across and is loads more active than the other forums I'm on.

 

There has been a fair bit of talk lately on suspension improvement of the superb. With the superb IV and Passat GTE being so similar I wondered if IV owners have had the same thoughts.

I had a look on a couple of car parts catalogues and they list the same shocks (rear at least) for 2.0tsi and 1.4hybrid. With the hybrid weighing so much more (200kg?) I thought this must contribute to the bounce. 

Having fitted B6 shocks to my Octavia I am well aware of the benefits. This time I'm thinking the koni versions would be more suitable as I don't intend to lower it....yet.

 

Roll I am happy with. Seems very controlled in that respect. Pitch/dive doesn't seem to bad but I don't feel able to push the car too much so maybe I haven't noticed it yet. Definitely think lowering springs are the solution. Too much free movement following an impact to consider higher springs rates.

 

What would briskoda do? (WWBD?)

[MarkyG82]

Noone?

[Patent]

The shocks might be shared but what about the springs? AFAIK the golf 7/7.5/8, Passat GTE, superb and Octavia iV (even the vrs) ride higher than their equivalent non hybrid model. The increased travel accomodates the extra weight without needing to make it stiffer / harsher.

[TimothyT]

Slightly offtopic but you mentioned fitting aftermarket shocks without lowering the car. Are those available on a large scale level for the Superb 3? Would be very interesting to get a slightly more stiff suspension without the lowering aspect.

[UndertheRadar]

1 hour ago, TimothyT said:

Slightly offtopic but you mentioned fitting aftermarket shocks without lowering the car. Are those available on a large scale level for the Superb 3? Would be very interesting to get a slightly more stiff suspension without the lowering aspect.

Koni’s for non DCC and bilstein damptronics for DCC. 

[MarkyG82]

Also Bilstein B6 for non dcc

[MarkyG82]

@Patent  The ride height thing is a strange one.  I have been trying to work out if the srings are the same as a more normal version (4x4 or tdi?).  The increased weight of the battery and other hybrid bits are roughly 200kg.  This is equivalent of carrying 3 passengers so not crazy in that respect.  My octavia did ride a touch low when loaded but nothing a bit of speedbump avoidance couldnt handle.  

 

If the springs are common only to the GTE or IV then would fitting standard spring bring it down enough to be lower I wonder...

 

 

Having reread my original post It's really badly written and pretty much a brain dump so apologies for that.  Having thought that springs may solve some of my needs, I think I may have been looking for the cheaper way out.  I think Koni fsd or Bilstein B6 will get done first (or at the same time depending on budget).

 

In the mean time I have spacers and a dogbone insert to fit.

[Patent]

I've just done a bit of research. The iV and the 280 4x4 seem closely matched in terms of weight (closer than I expected) which would make sense that they share shocks.

 

Fitting a 280 spring would probably bring it lower but would you risk it bottoming out constantly? And would stiffer shocks make it unpleasant to drive on rough roads (like an r56 mini on runflats)?

 

I kinda get the desire to make the suspension less soft but it's that same softness that allows you to carry momentum on poor roads compared to "sporty" cars. When you meet a tight corner you're still in a 2 tonne FWD car that wants to push the nose wide. Would you just end up ruining the ride on every other road whilst still ending up with a car that doesn't go around bends particularly well at all?

[UndertheRadar]

I’m still waiting on my damptronics arriving in. They were supposed to be in stock and then one wasn’t or something. Anyway, Bilstein said that they would give a similar ride to the OEM shocks but with far more control. So it won’t bounce all over the place and nose dive on speed ramps. The banging and thumping will be sorted as well. I’m fitting them with standard springs as I don’t want to lower the car any further than standard height. 
I won’t know until they arrive and I can fit them though as to how accurate that all is. 

[MarkyG82]

4 minutes ago, Patent said:

I've just done a bit of research. The iV and the 280 4x4 seem closely matched in terms of weight (closer than I expected) which would make sense that they share shocks.

 

Fitting a 280 spring would probably bring it lower but would you risk it bottoming out constantly? And would stiffer shocks make it unpleasant to drive on rough roads (like an r56 mini on runflats)?

 

I kinda get the desire to make the suspension less soft but it's that same softness that allows you to carry momentum on poor roads compared to "sporty" cars. When you meet a tight corner you're still in a 2 tonne FWD car that wants to push the nose wide. Would you just end up ruining the ride on every other road whilst still ending up with a car that doesn't go around bends particularly well at all?

 

Thanks for that.  Very helpful and makes me think if sportline springs would fit...

 

Your final point is very important.  It's actually the motorway where I feel the car is unstable.  Not uncomfortable just not as stable as my old car.  Could be the weight.  Dunno.  I'll start with the simple stuff.  Maybe a RARB as many others have done will help.  It's surprisingly good in the corners just after that little bit extra sharpness and positivity.

[MarkyG82]

6 minutes ago, UndertheRadar said:

I’m still waiting on my damptronics arriving in. They were supposed to be in stock and then one wasn’t or something. Anyway, Bilstein said that they would give a similar ride to the OEM shocks but with far more control. So it won’t bounce all over the place and nose dive on speed ramps. The banging and thumping will be sorted as well. I’m fitting them with standard springs as I don’t want to lower the car any further than standard height. 
I won’t know until they arrive and I can fit them though as to how accurate that all is. 

 

Unfortunately my car doesnt have dcc.  I am quite happy with the shocks apart from the bangs and thumps.  Will keep an eye our for your comments on the new shocks.

[Patent]

4 minutes ago, MarkyG82 said:

*words*

 

I'd agree it doesn't seem as sure-footed as I'd perhaps like in certain scenarios.

 

Take a look at the Passat GTE and Superb iV moose test results too, they aren't spectacular:

 

 

 

The 508 hybrid does a lot better, as does the 330e (unsurprisingly). I'll follow your changes with interest, there's definitely some improvement to be had over the factory setup.

 

[MarkyG82]

I had seen those before but it's interesting to see them again too the end with the other cars to compare to.  Theres no big wobble like you get in SUVs but the GTE/IV is definitely not as controlled as the pug or merc.  I wonder how much of that is in the tyres (height and grip level).  Mine has 18s I think so mabe a 19 would make a difference.  Just forked out for cross climates so wont be changing the wheels anytime soon.

 

The spacers I have are 12 front and 20 rear.  An icreased track of 40mm should got some way to improving turn in and the dogbone insert improved the front end of the old car so hoping it helps the new one.  When I have it in the air I'll take a look at the roll bar too.  It could be a nightmare with the battery/fuel tank but could also be a simple swap out.  Drop links with stiffer bushes could also be a big improvement at the same time just to give a bit more control.

 

I think I have a plan forming.

Edited 23 February, 2021 by MarkyG82
typo

[shyVRS245]

Also the weight of the PHEV being at least 1,750kg not helping the handling with all that weight moving around. My 2020 Superb diesel is only 1,500kg with the 7 speed DSG and handles (turn-in and cornering speed) better than my 4WD Sportline Plus 2019 model presumably because it has 160kg less weight to control. It is huge fun on the standard 18" alloys and Continental 235/45R18 tyres. Never thought I would say that about a diesel. On another point done 444 miles on just the 4th tank in over 2,800 miles since last October and there is still 550 miles left in the tank (range 994 miles). Didn't buy any fuel in November due to being on holiday and last filled up on 31/01/2021 with no need for fuel until March.

[MarkyG82]

@shyVRS245 is there a moosetest vid of a regular FWD superb to compare to the IV?  That would be the telling evidence.  

 

Good job on the 994 miles.  Only 6 more to the magic 1k!  I managed 612 last tank with 60 odd remaining.  Not a fair comparison though due to the smaller tank and additional EV miles.

[shyVRS245]

9 minutes ago, MarkyG82 said:

@shyVRS245 is there a moosetest vid of a regular FWD superb to compare to the IV?  That would be the telling evidence.  

 

Good job on the 994 miles.  Only 6 more to the magic 1k!  I managed 612 last tank with 60 odd remaining.  Not a fair comparison though due to the smaller tank and additional EV miles.

Managed 73mpg coming home this morning and it is 50% uphill which is impressive.

[MarkyG82]

So I fitted the spacers today along with the dogbone insert. Only had a blast round 3 block so far. Going a little further later to get the kids from nursery and off on a 240 mile round trip tomorrow and Saturday so may get a better idea of any improvements.

Initial feelings are that the steering response is better along with reduced crashyness. All of which I expected from fitting the insert. Spacers at this stage are purely cosmetic I think. Does look good though.

Measured the rarb at 22mm. Looks relatively straightforward to get at but main issue would be if any of the uprated ones for r-line, golf r, vrs, etc are the same shape. Should have taken some pics while under there.  

[MarkyG82]

Just a brief update on this.  

 

Pretty much as my above post re the handling and looks.  The lag in the transition between EV and ICE is much improved with the dogbone insert.  I know they are usually set aside for much sportier/tuned models but the benefit is clear on the hybrid system.

 

The suspension is now in need of attention I think.  There are some really bad speed bumps and road 'features' of various sizes around here and it really does show the bad points of the suspension.  It feels almost as firm as my Octavia on B6 shocks and prokit springs but with a fair bit less control.  I cant decide whether its the shocks that are causing it or if a slight drop (prokit?) would improve matters.  As the roll bar is a relatively easy job and the turn in and lean is not too bad I'll leave that as a job for fine tuning.  

 

Having now fitted the spacers too it is apparent that the rear end sits lower.  Could be due to the increase weight of the battery and the fuel tank being further back combined with springs that are from a regular model.  I have some audi top spacers somewhere that I will take a look at fitting.  That should even things out.  If I do go down the lowering route I'll leave the spacer in for that added clearance.

 

First MOT tomorrow so we'll see then if they spot any shock leaks and whether I get an excuse to replace them.

[Angelo Amato]

On 22/02/2021 at 09:21, TimothyT said:

Slightly offtopic but you mentioned fitting aftermarket shocks without lowering the car. Are those available on a large scale level for the Superb 3? Would be very interesting to get a slightly more stiff suspension without the lowering aspect.

 

Following on from this great forum, after buying my 2016 TDI sportline estate and found the ride to be dreadful, I recently replaced my own shocks with Koni Special Active dampers bought from here; Performance Car Parts - K&N, Bilstein, BC Racing, Eibach Exhausts and Suspension and more (dcperformance.co.uk)  again as documented on this forum. The difference is amazing and DC Performance service was great. Made my Superb much more pleasant to drive

 

Angelo

Edited 20 April, 2021 by Angelo Amato

[MarkyG82]

Thanks @Angelo Amato.  I think I'll be going B6 if/when I change them.  Car flew through MOT with no leaky shocks spotted so will have to wait a little while.  That is despite me not seeing the speed bump on the garage driveway and diving at it at 20mph!

 

Its good to hear more success stories of improvements though.

Edited 21 April, 2021 by MarkyG82

[MarkyG82]

So I've done some more digging and found that the GTE ride height is not lowered despite have 'sport" suspension. Not sure what the sport relates to with the part numbers being the same for GTE and standard 2.0 models. 

I do t think I could cope with the the full 35mm front 30mm rear drop of the prokit setup that I was initially looking at. There also doesn't seem to be a factory lowered option for the Passat so the only other option I might be looking at is superb sportline springs. 15mm drop would be fine and provide that little extra support. I can then decide if shocks are needed.

 

Does anyone have part numbers for sportline estate shocks? iV or not. Or is there someone on here with a sportline that has fitted other springs and has the old ones gathering dust?

[MarkyG82]

On 12/05/2021 at 16:43, MarkyG82 said:

. Or is there someone on here with a sportline that has fitted other springs and has the old ones gathering dust?

 

 

Anyone?

[Carlston]

Have you got the OEM part numbers of the front and rear springs?

 

Here are 4 of the standard ride height rear springs shown on the "vw online parts catalogue" for the 2016 VW Passat. The build code 1JA means that these springs are standard ride height. Build code 1JC would mean that they are sports springs. The "vw codes decoder" can be used to find out what the build codes mean.

 

"vw codes decoder"

http://igorweb.org/equidec.aspx

 

Four Standard Ride Height Rear Springs for the VW Passat 2016

1	3Q0511115AH	coil spring	Model data: PR-1JA+0YA
1	3Q0511115AJ	coil spring	Model data: PR-1JA+0YB
1	3Q0511115AK	coil spring	Model data: PR-1JA+0YC
1	3Q0511115AL	coil spring	Model data: PR-1JA+0YD

 

http://www.oemepc.com/vw/part_single/catalog/vw/markt/RDW/modell/PA/year/2016/drive_standart/793/hg_ug/511/subcategory/511000/part_id/0/lang/e

 

You can find the specification of each of these springs on autodoc.

 

3Q0511115AH (Wire Diameter 11.25mm, Length 363mm) 

https://www.autodoc.co.uk/car-parts/oem/3q0511115ah?search=OEN+3Q0511115AH&supplier[0]=1&supplier[1]=32&supplier[2]=85&supplier[3]=1&supplier[4]=32

 

3Q0511115AJ (Diameter 11.75mm, Length 361mm)

https://www.autodoc.co.uk/car-parts/oem/3q0511115aj?search=OEN+3Q0511115AJ&supplier[0]=1&supplier[1]=32&supplier[2]=85&supplier[3]=1&supplier[4]=32

 

3Q0511115AK (Diameter 12.25mm, Length 364mm)

https://www.autodoc.co.uk/car-parts/oem/3q0511115ak?search=OEN+3Q0511115AK&supplier[0]=32&supplier[1]=1&supplier[2]=85&supplier[3]=32&supplier[4]=1

 

3Q0511115AL (Diameter 12.50mm, Length 359mm)

https://www.autodoc.co.uk/car-parts/oem/3q0511115al?search=OEN+3Q0511115AL&supplier[0]=85&supplier[1]=32&supplier[2]=1

 

So if you had 3Q0511115AK rear springs and wanted to go about 5% stiffer but with about the same ride height, then a change to 3Q0511115AL would do that.

 

Edited 3 June, 2021 by Carlston

[MarkyG82]

4 hours ago, Carlston said:

Have you got the OEM part numbers of the front and rear springs?

 

I can probably get this from the colour coding in the springs and compare to your list.

 

Thanks for the details on how to figure it out. OEM springs are surprisingly affordable so I'll compare and contrast to pick what I want. All I know is a factory lowered height (15mm?) Is preferable to pro-kit (30-35mm). That way I can fit special actives and forget about the setup till they start to wear out.

 

Thanks again.

[MarkyG82]

@Carlston let me know if can't/don't want to help (happy either way) but as someone who obviously knows a bit about this stuff.

I have looked a bit into this with various part numbers and the Passat GTE/superb iV looks to have 13.5mm wire for the rear coils. If that's the case and the shocks are also fitted to cars with <12.5mm springs that would explain the somewhat uncontrolled feel.

 

What I am struggling to find is part numbers for sportline springs and also if the sportline iV is actually lower than a standard one. Scratch that. All the superb iVs have DCC which would put them at all the same height. I can feel myself going in circles!