How much time do you warm-up your Felicia?

[Thefeliciahacker]

3 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

i thought was ''the best i can do'' since the nightmare with that useless dump catastrophic 15W-50 but now with the new 10W-40 the indications day by day start lowering, 12-11,8-11,7-11,6 and now my record is this:

i thought you did 5.4

[D.FYLAKTOS]

2 hours ago, nta16 said:

 I'd imagine a better quality 15w-50 would have given better fuel figures in these circumstances than the 15w-50 you used, but possibly not as good as the 10w-40.

 

But here you only want to compare the fuel consumption between the recent cold morning and cold night starts (with the same oil in the engine at both times).

 

What ambient temperature range is the TC-6 guaranteed to be accurate at?

 

What is the state of charge and state of health of your car battery at the moment?

   

 

I don't want to change the ENEOS synthetic 10W-40 now that i have ''broke'' my fuel consumption record in Highway and Mountain Roads plus City traffic.

 

Every single day the ''crank ang go'' habit gives me more fuel consumption.

 

Specification -20 'C to +70 'C

 

Battery 2+ years old, charged at December, i have Voltage gauge in the console and shows normal indications.

[D.FYLAKTOS]

1 minute ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

i thought you did 5.4

 

In City traffic? No way.

5.4 ltr/ 100 Km was in Highway 100+ Km speed, i always post photos as proof.

[Thefeliciahacker]

Cold start like it or not you have the same "tractor sound" 

[D.FYLAKTOS]

1 hour ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

Cold start like it or not you have the same "tractor sound" 

 

With that oil yes, i never had it with Amsoil-Motul-Castrol, it's hard for me to get use too but when in the end of the day see less fuel consumption than all these years, then i compromise.

When i find time i will measure the day Cold start time, also the TC-6 helps to this because you see the fuel consumption getting lower, for example from 2,6 ltr/hour (Instant) from crank point starts lowering to 1,3 ltr/hour and also you hear the sound of the engine different, more quiet.

When it's stabilized i feel it's OK to go, i never-ever liked the crank and go habit, always feel uncomfortable.

[nta16]

37 minutes ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

then i compromise

I will get the flags out!  😄   (they would be difficult as I don't have any flags.)

 

 

40 minutes ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

also the TC-6 helps to this because you see the fuel consumption getting lower, for example from 2,6 ltr/hour (Instant) from crank point starts lowering to 1,3 ltr/hour and also you hear the sound of the engine different, more quiet.

I'm not sure how much I would trust such equipment in those circumstances as we are not talking F1 electronics and parameters, perhaps they are spot on, or near enough, I have no idea but I would be thinking salt basin unless proven otherwise to my satisfaction (by electronic, computer, computer programing, statistical and mechanical engineers obviously 😁 ).  Further towards the middle of the range may be more accurate but I've no idea, perhaps it's elsewhere or across the whole range.  If you use it as a consistent guide and it's accuracy is consistent then that's god enough as a guide, after all we don't have scientific or laboratory conditions to rely on, and then can you trust the results given.

 

[Thefeliciahacker]

2 minutes ago, nta16 said:

I'm not sure how much I would trust such equipment in those circumstances as we are not talking F1 electronics and parameters, perhaps they are spot on, or near enough,

If you are running closed loop and injector + rail pressure are perfect then you will get good results

[D.FYLAKTOS]

1 minute ago, nta16 said:

I'm not sure how much I would trust such equipment in those circumstances as we are not talking F1 electronics and parameters

 

Yes but in day Cold start you can not ''read'' the needle so good because it's trembling.

I rely on my ears for the sound of engine mainly and a look at TC-6 just shows the fuel consumption dropping means is not consuming so much fuel as the first 30", that's a good indication.

 

1 minute ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

then you will get good results

 

Cold days, not enough warm-up time, short routes...i have no expectations for ''miracle'' MPG numbers in situation like this.

It's good that the first results show City traffic fuel consumption dropping, let's hope that this will be continued in the next days and stabilized.

The Highway and the Mountain Road cases are ''closed'' with a Win, amazing results that i haven't see them for 21 years.

 

[nta16]

Just now, Thefeliciahacker said:

If you are running closed loop and injector + rail pressure are perfect then you will get good results

Good point.  But then how accurate is the measuring instrument, probably good enough.  I've no idea what the TC-6 (is) and where it picks it's information up from, and where ever that is it's accuracy, but as you put probably good at closed loop, good to think of things being perfect on a 23 year old car - but I'm nit-picking, assuming the TC-6 is consistent then that is the measure taken as no other is available to cross-reference and check against.  Need I post My Cousin Vinny video clip again, I'm very happy to, just to see the mechanic again (we' are about the same age, no "chick" issue at any time). 😁

 

 

2 minutes ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

I rely on my ears for the sound of engine mainly and a look at TC-6 just shows the fuel consumption dropping means is not consuming so much fuel as the first 30", that's a good indication.

👍

so 

[D.FYLAKTOS]

9 minutes ago, nta16 said:

I've no idea what the TC-6 (is) and where it picks it's information up from

 

Power from horn which means all the time, has a back-up capability, connection with factory dashboar gauge (fuel level), it's own fuel injector sensor-plugs-electronic board etc with VW-Audi cables.

The installation is very difficult, my electrician had ''hard time'' although the compnay gives all the informations.

It was the company that was making the ''factory'' TC-6, it's not something after market, you could have them installed in your new Felicia by demand, the Skoda offered this as "extra".

 

 

 

[Papez]

9 hours ago, nta16 said:

I've no idea what the TC-6 (is) and where it picks it's information up from, and where ever that is it's accuracy

 

TC-6 is a trip computer sold as original acessory. There's variant TC-6P with locked calibration menu and consumption reset - that hints its original purpose, to monitor fuel consumption on company vehicles, in times when fuel theft from a company car was very popular way to save some money

It takes signal directly from the fuel injector and tachometer and it can be calibrated for almost perfect accuracy.

[RicardoM]

Just now, Papez said:

It takes signal directly from the fuel injector and tachometer and it can be calibrated for almost perfect accuracy.

Actually the sensor for injection picks up the control signal using a coil mounted on a single injector, usually no. 4.

The method for measuring instantaneous fuel consumption on TC-6 is far from perfection for various reasons, such as:

• There is only one sensor on a single injector. Control signals are not necessarily identical for all injectors.
• The injectors work perfectly only in an ideal world. The ECU has not the possibility to know for sure how much fuel squirt each injector in reality. Some injectors might have smaller or bigger electrical and/or mechanical problems.

The perfect solution is to use a differential fuel flow meter that works as a fuel flow difference between the fuel flow entering the injection rail and the fuel flow exiting the injection rail at a given time.

[Thefeliciahacker]

31 minutes ago, RicardoM said:

The injectors work perfectly only in an ideal world. The ECU has not the possibility to know for sure how much fuel squirt each injector in reality. Some injectors might have smaller or bigger electrical and/or mechanical problems.

Thats the biggest issue

[D.FYLAKTOS]

Except the:

Skoda Felicia TC-6 trip computer

https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/495195-skoda-felicia-tc-6-trip-computer/

 

there is a specific thread:

 

Felicia fuel tank capacity and TC-measurements

https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/500579-felicia-fuel-tank-capacity-and-tc-6-measurements/#comment-5620557

 

Any objections, recommentations, disagreements, corrections, advices to Skoda for perfection etc for this 23+ years old system it's nice to be there.

 

[Papez]

7 hours ago, RicardoM said:

Actually the sensor for injection picks up the control signal using a coil mounted on a single injector, usually no. 4.

The method for measuring instantaneous fuel consumption on TC-6 is far from perfection for various reasons, such as:

• There is only one sensor on a single injector. Control signals are not necessarily identical for all injectors.

 

It's actually signal from two injectors, since the Simos ECU drives injectors in pairs. And I don't think it's able to adjust the other pair, since there's only a single lambda probe for all cylinders.

 

7 hours ago, RicardoM said:

The injectors work perfectly only in an ideal world. The ECU has not the possibility to know for sure how much fuel squirt each injector in reality. Some injectors might have smaller or bigger electrical and/or mechanical problems.

 

That's why you can calibrate TC6 measurements by +-6%. If there's bigger deviation from reality, there are other problems to be solved than fuel flow measurements.

[RicardoM]

1 hour ago, Papez said:

And I don't think it's able to adjust the other pair, since there's only a single lambda probe for all cylinders.

The correlation between injectors firing and the number of oxygen sensors makes no sense. You don't need several oxygen sensors to feed back a different injection duration control, for the simple reason that injection occurs at different times per cylinders. One oxygen sensor is perfectly capable to measure oxygen concentration variations in time and ECU to send different injection control signals accordingly.

 

1 hour ago, Papez said:

That's why you can calibrate TC6 measurements by +-6%.

The possibility of calibration does not necessarily imply the fuel consumption measurement will be accurate forever, In a real world the injectors have the bad habit of getting more or less faulty from many reasons.

In fact, we are discussing from different perspectives. While you declare that the meter has "almost perfect accuracy", I, as an engineer living in a real world, have to specify that your assumption is true only in an ideal world. For you it might be ideal to calibrate the computer often, for me it is not. Can we live with a fuel flow meter having a reasonable accuracy? Sure, for most drivers we can, except for those having some sort of OCD. But in my opinion the meter has not almost perfect precision. That is why I advised those in need of a more realistic precision meter to use a differential flow meter. In conclusion, I have nothing against your opinion, except for that accurate precision you mentioned.

[Papez]

7 hours ago, RicardoM said:

The correlation between injectors firing and the number of oxygen sensors makes no sense. You don't need several oxygen sensors to feed back a different injection duration control, for the simple reason that injection occurs at different times per cylinders. One oxygen sensor is perfectly capable to measure oxygen concentration variations in time and ECU to send different injection control signals accordingly.

 

What's signal period on a Felicia? From what I've found, it is around 250ms, that's not enough to measure each cylinder.

 

7 hours ago, RicardoM said:

 I, as an engineer living in a real world, have to specify that your assumption is true only in an ideal world. For you it might be ideal to calibrate the computer often, for me it is not. Can we live with a fuel flow meter having a reasonable accuracy? Sure, for most drivers we can, except for those having some sort of OCD. But in my opinion the meter has not almost perfect precision. That is why I advised those in need of a more realistic precision meter to use a differential flow meter. In conclusion, I have nothing against your opinion, except for that accurate precision you mentioned.

 

As an engineer, you should know that any instrument needs regular calibration to maintain precision. The TC-6 at least allows for that, which is not the case of more modern factory solutions, that can drift by a half litre or more.. 

even flow meter wouldn't be perfect solution, as there are other sources of error, namely tire wear.

So I agree, "perfect" was a strong word 😀 Reasonable precision comparable to other methods that a normal person can achieve, is a better description.

[D.FYLAKTOS]

TC-6 (TC-6P is for Professional with pin protection) can work with Monotronic 1.3, and MPI 1.3 and 1.6, with models from 1995 (F95) and from 1996 till 2001 (F96)

Flow meter correction can be done from -8% till +7% for better accuracy.

 

As for ''perfection''  that someone asks from an old car, a simple search can find topic with Trip Computer problems with Mercedes-Ferrari-Porsche etc plus this:

 

Stella Artois - Perfection has its Price

 

 

[RicardoM]

7 hours ago, Papez said:

What's signal period on a Felicia? From what I've found, it is around 250ms, that's not enough to measure each cylinder.

What signal 'period' are you referring to? What measurement of each cylinder are you talking about?

[Papez]

4 hours ago, RicardoM said:

What signal 'period' are you referring to? What measurement of each cylinder are you talking about?

 

A signal period - length of a repeating cycle of a signal. Lambda signal is somewhat square with regular interval. 

You said that the oxygen sensor can measure each cylinder

19 hours ago, RicardoM said:

One oxygen sensor is perfectly capable to measure oxygen concentration variations in time and ECU to send different injection control signals accordingly.

 

In order for this to be true, the period of the output signal from the lambda probe would have to be shorter than exhaust duration of each cylinder, to reliably measure each cylinder. 250ms would be able to measure at most 4 exhaust strokes per second  - which would be around 120RPM. That means that ECU doesn't have any way to detect which injector is out of spec, so signal on one injector is always identical to others.

 

[Thefeliciahacker]

2 hours ago, Papez said:

somewhat square with regular interval

its a sinewave 

[RicardoM]

15 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

TC-6 (TC-6P is for Professional with pin protection) can work with Monotronic 1.3, and MPI

I am blown away 😅 by the fact that for you P stands for 'professional' and it has "pin protection", whatever you think that means. In fact it has a few extended features. What can I say? Throw a party. Put a sticker on your bumper. Whatever makes you happy.

By the way, it is Mono-Motronic, not Monotronic.

 

5 hours ago, Papez said:

A signal period - length of a repeating cycle of a signal. Lambda signal is somewhat square with regular interval. You said that the oxygen sensor can measure each cylinder

You are making a common mistake. In the context of our discussion about the possibility of 'measuring each cylinder', when you say 'period of lambda signal' in fact you are referring to the LATENCY of the lambda probe (see photo).

Moreover, you are making the assumption that the lambda probe can not keep up with the speed of cylinder exhaust cycles. That is obviously wrong. Why? Because it would defy the entire purpose of a lambda sensor. The lambda sensor was created to measure the oxygen content for any engine speed. You can see in the attached photo how the signal can have also a shorter time of variation. At higher engine speeds the signal goes full high (~0.9V) or full low (!0.1V). That happens because the ECU has an integrator circuit followed by an operational amplifier connected as a comparator at the input port for the lambda sensor, not because the lambda sensor is slow. Slightly delayed with an average value of 0.25 s, yes. Not keeping up with the engine speed, not. We can go further into this discussion if you want and talk about the rate of signal acquisition of the ECU, but that is not the point.

 

In conclusion, we can debate for days the theory behind closed loop emissions measurement, but to me it is enough you agreed to disagree that TP-6 has not an almost perfect precision. Are there better solutions? Of course, but none of them is almost perfect. I have mentioned the differential flow meter because the sensor is inserted in the fuel stream, thus measuring directly quantities of fuel in a certain amount of time. We don't have to guess anymore if the injector is acting properly or not. We just subtract fuel out from fuel in.

By the way, I appreciate that you bring a more informed feedback from the home country of Felicia.

 

Edited 24 January by RicardoM

[Papez]

6 hours ago, RicardoM said:

Slightly delayed with an average value of 0.25 s, yes. Not keeping up with the engine speed, not.

I wasn't saying that it doesn't keep up with the

 

6 hours ago, RicardoM said:

Moreover, you are making the assumption that the lambda probe can not keep up with the speed of cylinder exhaust cycles. That is obviously wrong.  .... Slightly delayed with an average value of 0.25 s, yes. Not keeping up with the engine speed, not. 

 

0.25s is not a "slight delay". You have at least 10 exhaust events in that period, how can you tell which one are you measuring? It doesn't matter what causes the delay, if you cannot see each exhaust pulse in the output signal, you cannot reliably tell difference between cylinders and you are measuring the engine as a whole. So the injectors have to be within spec for the engine to even work reliably. And if they are precise enough to keep the engine running, they are precise enough to measure fuel flow. Not perfect, but good enough. About as good as counting dofferential rotations to get the distance value, probably better.

Edited 24 January by Papez

[RicardoM]

1 hour ago, Papez said:

0.25s is not a "slight delay". You have at least 10 exhaust events in that period, how can you tell which one are you measuring?

If you know the value of the delay as a constant, it is very easy.

In fact, we are discussing about a false issue that I never raised. I did never say that the ECU knows instantaneously what cylinder(s) had an exhaust event. I said there is very possible to have different control signals for each (pair of) injectors between two successive exhaust events. You raised the issue of having just one single lambda probe, and implied the impossibility of adjusting 'the other pair' of injectors with a different control signal. I say again that the existence of a single lambda probe has no relevance. The lambda probe works continuously, despite the control signal being delayed. The entire feedback of the closed loop for emissions is delayed due to various factors (the probe itself, the distance between the exhaust valve and the lambda probe, etc.). The ECU reacts all the time with a delay after the current exhaust event. Yet that delay doesn't make impossible for the lambda probe to differentiate between two successive exhaust events and output a different signal. I hope my explanation was clear, although the nuance is subtle.

[D.FYLAKTOS]

Who's preaching? The funny guy which saying that my photos from Average fuel consumption in a curb was ''fixed'' because i just released the gas pedal.

That's happening when you claim that you are ''an engineer'' but don't know the difference between Current with i/h symbol, Average with the Ø symbol ant Total with the Σ symbol.

So according to that guy i have found a prolonged turn Eau Rouge like, i reach by magic hay a high speed of 200Km and while this drops to 100Km with one hand in that long distance turn i took a photo with low fuel consumption.

But i have posted at leat 3 different photos so where is that magic turn?

What about the symbol in the screen? How can i replace it? That's happening when you claim that you have ''a very economical car'' with 7,5lt / 100 Km in Highway. 😂

 

The same guy which some posts back tried many times with multiple provocations to stop other members to post here, he show-up again exclusively to create problems.