7 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Please provide evidence that EV must forever be reliant on oil derived products.

 Nobody can say 'forever' in truth since we do not know what the ingenuity of mankind can produce in future. But having said that...

 

EVs have motor and wheel bearings, moving parts in their steering systems, hinges on their doors, etc.?

 

Everywhere that there are parts moving relative to each other some lubrication is required.

 

Even 'synthetic' oils and greases are actually made by cracking crude oil and rebuilding them into a better lubricant.

 

There do not exist non-oil based alternatives for ALL these lubrication needs so SOME oil will still be required, even when there are no ICE vehicles left running.

No shortage of Oil globally, or around the UK for lubrication..

  It is just that once it is then turned into other products there is no need to burn it to fuel engines to get private and light commercial goods and passengers cars moving around. 

Now no need for public transport busses either.

 

Will we see the Leaders of the Conservative & Unionist Party & Scottish Leader & the Labour Leader & Scottish Labour Leader visiting Ineos @ Grangemouth pre election or will they be up at Nigg, Ardersier & Aberdeen as usual.

 

Same with the Leader of the SNP & First Minister.  The jobs are going and the money to the treasury. 

Maybe some of the pollution as well. 

 

 

In Aberdeen you have Hydrogen Busses, Vans, Bin Lorries & Cars.

 

 

 

 

Edited 15 May, 20242 yr by Ootohere

22 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

 Nobody can say 'forever' in truth since we do not know what the ingenuity of mankind can produce in future. But having said that...

 

EVs have motor and wheel bearings, moving parts in their steering systems, hinges on their doors, etc.?

 

Everywhere that there are parts moving relative to each other some lubrication is required.

 

Even 'synthetic' oils and greases are actually made by cracking crude oil and rebuilding them into a better lubricant.

 

There do not exist non-oil based alternatives for ALL these lubrication needs so SOME oil will still be required, even when there are no ICE vehicles left running.

The demand for such oil derived product is many orders of magnitude less than demand for petrol/diesel/other fuel. So there's scope to hugely cut down refinery energy use. 

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/more-olefins-less-gasoline-petrochemical-fcc-enabler-da-silva-mba-

Figure 1 shows changing demand for oil derivatives, with refinery able to match that change. 

When petrol/diesel demand is greatly reduced, that makes a large reduction in total crude oil demand, which means a significant reduction in energy demand. 

 

I don't think anyone is under illusion that oil extraction and refinery will completely stop in the near or mid future. But somehow this is put under the microscope as the  reason for misinformation, even though it was never mentioned in the video. 

 

 

Key is people use their car's 119 g/km figure as though it is all the pollution their car produces. There is MASIVE amount of pollution before fuel even gets into the fuel tank. 

To some people, status quo is a comfortable refuge, change is scary. 

 

Funny questions found on another forum. Imagine a world where BEV is normal and petrol/diesel cars are being introduced: 

 

 

I am thinking of swapping my EV for an ICE car ….

1. I have heard that petrol cars cannot refuel at home while you sleep? How often do you have to refill elsewhere? Will there be a solution for refuelling at home?

2. Which parts will I need to service and how often? The car salesman mentioned oil in the engine and timing belts that need replacing and a box with gears in it. What is this? How much will this service oil change cost and how often – and what happens to the old oil. Also, apparently these petrol type cars generally stop on the brakes alone – so the brakes wear out much faster – how long will they last compared to my current car which lasts over 100k miles?

3. Do I get fuel back when I slow down or drive downhill?

4. The car I test drove seemed to have a delay from the time I pressed the accelerator pedal until it began to accelerate. Is that normal in petrol cars?

5. We currently pay about 2p per mile to drive our electric car. I have heard that petrol can cost up to 8 times as much. Is this true?

6. Is it true that petrol is flammable?

7. I understand that the main ingredient in petrol is oil. Is it true that the extraction and refining of oil causes environmental problems as well as conflicts and major wars that over the last 100 years have cost millions of lives? Is there a solution?

8. I have also been told that you have to transport oil all over the world to turn into petrol or diesel, and these ships have in the past damaged the environment by leaking the oil.

9. I have heard that cars with internal combustion engines are being banned to enter more and more cities around the world, as it is claimed that they tend to harm the environment and health of their citizens? Is that true?

10. I have been told that these internal combustion engines make a noise when you start them – so early starts can wake people up, and driving a lot of internal combustion engine cars in towns makes towns noisy.

11. is it true people can steal the fuel from your tank?

12. what is the drop in range in cold weather, I've been told a car that does 45mpg can drop to 37 mpg in winter – just curious on that one.

13. a friend told me that the exhausts wear out – is that true, and people steal them for the rare material used in them.

14. I was also told – that the exhaust gas isn’t good for you – and if you leave the car running in a confined space – like a garage – you will die – surely that isn’t true is it?

15. next door told me – these petrol cars – carry around 40 to 60 litres of highly flammable liquid which is pumped into a plastic cylinder, and its then exploded to generate expanding gas to move a piston, and turn linear motion into rotary motion. Why would anyone want thousands of explosions happening within a few feet of where your sitting.

16. a guy at work told me – he has a petrol car, and it leaks oil. When he parks it – surely that’s not right is it – leaving dirty marks on the floor and contaminating the environment so directly. How long before this happens if I change.

17. my dad told me – if you buy a diesel car – the hand pump smells very bad, and you have to wear special gloves to stop your hand smelling, and if you spill it on your clothes it terrible.

18. is it true – the petrol and diesel is so dangerous, that you can only buy the fuel at a special filling station, and not anywhere (hotels/Car parks/Home/Work)?

19. while technology is advancing, will I ever be able to refuel my internal combustion car for free using only the sun?

20. would I be better off going straight to horse and cart, and not buying a horseless carriage – they sound pretty awful, burning dinosaur juice and polluting the environment whist funding conflict and war and consuming raw material at an unbelievably high rate.

 

 

Also: 

Think of a world full of BEVs and someone comes along and wants to homologate a car (BEV) with a 'fuel tank' attached to it.
'Hi, I'd like to attack a flimsy plastic bottle to underside of this car and fill it with flammable fluid. How can I homologate this?'

 

I just heard the end of the BBC Scotland MORNINGS show. with Kaye Adams and the Consumer Expert was on.  I will listen later to the callers whole story.

(Not yet on BBC Sounds.) 

 

I just caught the bit it is leased with Salary Sacrifice.    Problems with it and he said.   

'You can not charge it above 80% for the first 6 months', so that is a loss of 100 miles.'

 

I am interested what he has and what the issues are. But most of all who is feeding him guff like the 80% thing. 

Edited 15 May, 20242 yr by Ootohere

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

I don't think anyone is under illusion that oil extraction and refinery will completely stop in the near or mid future. But somehow this is put under the microscope as the  reason for misinformation, even though it was never mentioned in the video. 

 

You are forgetting the world is full of people who will believe exactly what they are told by such informative videos and or people. Not everyone has the same level of knowledge as you. Most people have zero understanding of just how their car works even. Some have no idea how plastic is made, or that it comes oil even, they can't comprehend just how can something so strong and hard possibly come out of a liquid even.

 

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

The demand for such oil derived product is many orders of magnitude less than demand for petrol/diesel/other fuel. So there's scope to hugely cut down refinery energy use. 

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/more-olefins-less-gasoline-petrochemical-fcc-enabler-da-silva-mba-

Figure 1 shows changing demand for oil derivatives, with refinery able to match that change. 

When petrol/diesel demand is greatly reduced, that makes a large reduction in total crude oil demand, which means a significant reduction in energy demand. 

 

Don't bank on it.

 

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Key is people use their car's 119 g/km figure as though it is all the pollution their car produces. There is MASIVE amount of pollution before fuel even gets into the fuel tank. 

Ok so my car emits 119g/km, I could have opted for the exactly same car but more powerful and therefore more damaging to the environment, my car already goes plenty fast enough, twice the national speed limit and has plenty of acceleration for the amount of traffic on the roads., why would anyone in the UK require more?? There are other cars in the same size category that emit upto 350 g/km and yet carry less passengers?

 

There is more pollution and environmental damage being done to produce a EV battery before further pollution is created in the making and shipping of the actual finished car, and then again not all the electric for charging is going to be green either, despite what some claim.

 

The only way they can make such a claim is if they generate their own power in solar and or wind and only ever charge their cars at home 100%.

Edited 15 May, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

There is lots polluting the world and the UK.  

 

But people in the UK voted in this Government and have to accept it is what they want doing.

They will get what ever the next government is.    You all took back control.     Crazy barstewards. 

 

They are seemingly 'stopping the war on motorists'.   So that is good.  Currently anyone can almost drive anything they want in the UK, within the law.

 

So fill your boots, fill your tanks, and fill your lungs with lovely fresh air. 

25 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Think of a world full of BEVs and someone comes along and wants to homologate a car (BEV) with a 'fuel tank' attached to it.
'Hi, I'd like to attack a flimsy plastic bottle to underside of this car and fill it with flammable fluid. How can I homologate this?'

 

Are you sure you are using the word homologate correctly, I'm not.

5 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

You are forgetting the world is full of people who will believe exactly what they are told by such informative videos and or people. Not everyone has the same level of knowledge as you. Most people have zero understanding of just how their car works even. Some have no idea how plastic is made, or that it comes oil even, they can't comprehend just how can something so strong and hard possibly come out of a liquid even.

Right, since you brought them up earlier. So in your opinion, Taycan-man and Geoff are doing the god's work by spreading factually correct information presented in a truthful way? 

 

7 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Ok so my car emits 119g/km, I could have opted for the exactly same car but more powerful and therefore more damaging to the environment, my car already goes plenty fast enough, twice the national speed limit and has plenty of acceleration for the amount of traffic on the roads., why would anyone in the UK require more?? There are other cars in the same size category that emit upto 350 g/km and yet carry less passengers?

Here's the thing. No, your car does not produce 119 g/km of carbon emissions, it's a lie. There is a HUGE supply chain for the peitrol/diesel that is not often mentioned. 

 

9 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

There is more pollution and environmental damage being done to produce a EV battery before further pollution is created in the making and shipping of the actual finished car, and then again not all the electric for charging is going to be green either, despite what some claim.

 

The only they can make such a claim is if they generate their own power in solar and or wind and only ever charge their cars at home 100%.

No, there is less pollution and environmental damage by EV over its lifetime. Please refer to the links I posted and you quoted. Battery production embedded carbon is cancelled out after first 1-3 years, depending on energy source. 

 

You keeps on repeating proven wrong facts and refuse to believe trustworthy sources. That is extremely far from realist that you claim. 

3 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Are you sure you are using the word homologate correctly, I'm not.

https://www.google.com/search?q=homologate+a+car&rlz=1C1GCEB_enGB1107GB1107&oq=homologate+a+car&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDExMjlqMGoxqAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&safe=active&ssui=on

"Vehicle homologation refers to the process of certifying that a vehicle complies with the necessary technical and legal requirements to be deemed roadworthy and safe for public use. " 

 

In another words, in a world where EV came first, how would they certify a car carrying 50 litres of highly flammable liquid everywhere? 

Edited 15 May, 20242 yr by wyx087

27 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Right, since you brought them up earlier. So in your opinion, Taycan-man and Geoff are doing the god's work by spreading factually correct information presented in a truthful way? 

Wrong, I never made that claim, some of what they say is pure guff and some is not. Others cannot admit that and automatically label everything as BS.

 

27 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Here's the thing. No, your car does not produce 119 g/km of carbon emissions, it's a lie. There is a HUGE supply chain for the peitrol/diesel that is not often mentioned. 

Again, 100% agreement, but then I have never ever denied it, why can't you accept that fact?

 

27 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

No, there is less pollution and environmental damage by EV over its lifetime. Please refer to the links I posted and you quoted. Battery production embedded carbon is cancelled out after first 1-3 years, depending on energy source. 

Once again, 100% agreement from me, but I thought we discussing amount of energy and pollution being used/creating just the petrol/diesel and the car itself. 

Lifetime is such a variable thing 🥱 

Edited 15 May, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

21 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

https://www.google.com/search?q=homologate+a+car&rlz=1C1GCEB_enGB1107GB1107&oq=homologate+a+car&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDExMjlqMGoxqAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&safe=active&ssui=on

"Vehicle homologation refers to the process of certifying that a vehicle complies with the necessary technical and legal requirements to be deemed roadworthy and safe for public use. " 

 

In another words, in a world where EV came first, how would they certify a car carrying 50 litres of highly flammable liquid everywhere? 

Homologation - Wikipedia

 

See the section under Motorsports.

 

Fred is on @ 2 hours 24 minutes.  He quotes VW,s advice on charging.

 

http://bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001z54n

 

@Stonekeeper   We know that stuff.  It is a constant in the Media,

 

Tell King Charles about his BEV, and his buddies in other Royal Families, Saudi Arabia, even Qatar with their money in VW.

Tell Rishi Sunak, Grant Shapps, Jeremy Hunt. Tell the Politicians around the world. 

 

Ask them the harm they do stealing others resources, & wiping out innocent people because of oil & gas and minerals which the greedy barstewards want for other greedy barstewards that want to drive 10 miles for every litres of liquid fuel or less and 3.5 miles for every kWh of electrucity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 15 May, 20242 yr by Ootohere

someone somewhere would still complain if all cars  were legislated to be like this

@Stonekeeper Thank you for posting this video. I did come across this before but was unable to find it when I wanted to post it. Many are in denial of these events, we get all the benefits and the locals get all the crap and are no benefits at all, those go to the companies. 

9 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@Stonekeeper Thank you for posting this video. I did come across this before but was unable to find it when I wanted to post it. Many are in denial of these events, we get all the benefits and the locals get all the crap and are no benefits at all, those go to the companies. 

 

The wealthy who can enjoy the maximum gain from innovations will always exploit the poor for profit.

 

Whilst conning them into believing it's for the benefit of everyone to get the support.

 

I am actually looking forwards to this August Bank holiday to see what happens at ev charging points on the M5.

 

 

This has been posted before by me 2 years ago. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Wrong, I never made that claim, some of what they say is pure guff and some is not. Others cannot admit that and automatically label everything as BS.

Here's exactly what you said:

20 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

To think how people rant about Taycan man and Geoff buy Cars and M Guy for being biased and full of misinformation, none of their videos are packed full of BS unlike this "Fully Charged" spin off.

Dissecting it, removing the double negative, you said saying that "all of their video are packed full of truthful information, unlike this Fully Charged spin off".

 

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Again, 100% agreement, but then I have never ever denied it, why can't you accept that fact?

Simple, because you keep referring to it.

 

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Once again, 100% agreement from me, but I thought we discussing amount of energy and pollution being used/creating just the petrol/diesel and the car itself. 

Lifetime is such a variable thing 🥱 

Yes, topic is energy and pollution from production of petrol/diesel.

You brought up battery production, to which I referenced total vehicle lifetime emission.

I'm not sure why you are using weasel words now whereas you referenced EV battery production and end-of-life: 

15 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

EVs are just adding to the total amount of pollution and huge amounts of toxins that will be left behind that we cannot currently find a safe method of breaking down to become harmless, surely you cannot deny that.

 

 

 

59 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

Similarly, for balance, numerous oil extraction related disasters are well documented:

 

https://ourworldindata.org/oil-spills#interactive-charts-on-oil-spills

https://www.britannica.com/explore/savingearth/9-biggest-oil-spills-in-history

https://www.idealresponse.co.uk/blog/the-10-biggest-oil-spills-in-history/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/268148/largest-global-oil-spills-since-1967/

 

Last year, there had been 1 large spill and 9 medium spills:

https://www.itopf.org/knowledge-resources/data-statistics/statistics/

"The total volume of oil lost to the environment from tanker spills in 2023 was approximately 2,000 tonnes"

 

  

22 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

I am actually looking forwards to this August Bank holiday to see what happens at ev charging points on the M5.

I'll be driving the length of the country during the Bank holiday weekend for a week break in Isle of Skye. I'll let you know how I get on

Edited 15 May, 20242 yr by wyx087

7 hours ago, wyx087 said:

I don't think anyone is under illusion that oil extraction and refinery will completely stop in the near or mid future.

So why is the protest group called "Just Stop Oil"?, and why is new exploration treated as a pariah? - existing oil fields WILL become uneconomic so replacement will be needed even if we no longer burn oil or gas.

They are using Electricity from Offshore Wind Farms for the Rigs and going to be converting more because the exploration and extraction is polluting.

& the flaming on the rigs. 

 

You really need to see Aberdeen these days for just how much Oil Support Companies there are.

Also just how many empty HQ,s and other buildings. 

 

 

Edited 15 May, 20242 yr by Ootohere

3 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

So why is the protest group called "Just Stop Oil"?, and why is new exploration treated as a pariah? - existing oil fields WILL become uneconomic so replacement will be needed even if we no longer burn oil or gas.

That's the point, they won't. Oil will continue to play a very big part of batteries and EVs as the video posted by @Ootohereshows. I think we can all  agree that something needs to be done before all the oil that can safely be extracted expires. It's just the way that it seems we are going about it could end up with us being left in a far worse state than we are right now.

 

As seen in the video we are looking at all kinds of battery make up and they are being devolped now and to a very large extent we, the consumers are the lab rats and the guinea pigs in the experiment, which may because of the rush to get fossil fuel consigned to the history books, could end up paying massively if it all goes wrong. We should be taking a different strategy towards the goal. 

Truth of the matter The Green,s / Scottish Green Party are ANTI.   The SNP always wanted the Oil left for when Scotland is Independent and not the revenue for Westminster to P!ss up the wall on the likes of their pet things.  Like bombing and killing others around the world.  Building stuff and selling it cheaply. 

The SNP want to pI55 it up walls in Scotland.