3 hours ago, wyx087 said:

 

The problem with buses is other traffic on the road. Selfish drivers slows down the buses and makes the whole thing undesirable. That's the reason for their slowness, need take away the traffic congestion.

 

 

A common comment that is often incorrect - for sure ALL traffic would move better if there was less of it but, on certain routes it is actually the buses causing the congestion behind them and slowing each other down - something that I have evidenced in the past to the Local Authority here by way of detailed analysis and mapping of time-stamped GPS data from the buses themselves...   

 

However, for clarity in relation to the earlier bus journey I referenced - it was a journey completed primarily via bus lanes and was not held up by other traffic or parking as the route is well patrolled on a daily basis against bus lane violations via the local traffic wardens in Renault Zoes (in fact it was actually the opposite with the bus stopping at bus stops holding up the traffic and other buses...).

 

However, I'm sure you'll argue you know better...

5 hours ago, wyx087 said:

The problem with buses is other traffic on the road. Selfish drivers slows down the buses and makes the whole thing undesirable. That's the reason for their slowness, need take away the traffic congestion.

 

Hence why I said that 1 DD bus could potentially remove upto 80 cars, hence entice people back onto buses, by making them affordable, more frequent, more routes, more comfortable etc would help to reduce traffic congestion.

 

5 hours ago, wyx087 said:

When I rode Oxford park & ride bus into Oxford, it was great EXCEPT for the 15min the bus was stuck in traffic due to other cars mostly with just a single person in each of the cars.

My daily experience nearby, cars parked on the road is primary source of slow-down for the local buses. Roads around here are already narrow, people park their cars on the road because their flat didn't have allocated parking. It then blocks the whole road until the bus can nudge past other traffic.

Most places today have park and ride buses, but are only good for visitors, local residents are highly unlikely to make use of them.

 

Cars parked on the road slows the buses down, well who would have thought that would happen and it was nice to see you actually admit that people park on the road because their flat did not come with allocated parking, something I have highlighted many times before, few flats / houses in older towns and cities have off road parking for flats or houses, and clearly buses will struggle to get past these if there is other traffic in their way.

5 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Indeed it's all very subjective. One person may see a drop of rain as excuse to drive while someone else may still cycle in the snow. But end of the day none of those 2 people need to drive if public transport is well built out like around here.

Once again, while rain could well be a very good reason for getting the car out, who wants to stand at bus stop for any length of time getting soaked, plus there is the walk to the bus stop and again when you alight from the bus you have to walk to your final destination, getting even wetter? 

Have you ever for a single moment even considered that the cyclist in the snow might actually have no other option open to them? I think the answer to that is going to be NO because you're not skint.

 

If PT is well built round your way, (your words) then why do you need to drive or indeed have 2 cars?

5 hours ago, wyx087 said:

I do understand London is a different kettle of fish, including often unnecessary car ownership. But that shouldn't stop other population centres from adopting similar park&ride strategy to Oxford or Cambridge.

You need to get out more, as I already mentioned, loads of other population centres have park & ride schemes, including here in Chelmsford and while I don't have the photographic memory of @Ootohere, I seem to recall that he has also posted about such schemes up in Scotland.

5 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Remember I'm not arguing to take away the car completely for everyone, clearly there's cases where personal transport is required. I'm only arguing that WHEN  public transit is dense enough in population centres, make driving less attractive with provision for less able (eg. ULEZ and C-charge). Push people towards the sustainable solution, slowly change people's mindset.

OK then, so when are you giving up your cars, you already apparently live in an area which has a dense PT system so you don't need your cars, you could use the more sustainable solution that you are so keen for others to adopt, are you going to lead by example? Of course not, silly me for even thinking you would.

5 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Getting around in central London is no problem at all, not even with a baby buggy, which I had to do at one point. Today there's even more step-free access stations than before. I've driven around central London in Saturday/Sundays due to cheaper with a full EV, but even with reduced traffic, it would still be faster to take the tube in my experience.

Really, you need to come to Chelmsford then, Saturday and especially Sunday, there is more traffic in the centre, why, maybe because people are at work on weekdays, and on Sundays our PT system runs a skeleton service and network rail have bus replacement services due to ongoing rail engineering works.

As for using the tube in London, you would be riding in the most polluted air in all of London, a fact that has been well demonstrated and I find that ironic given your position on the need to clean up the air, especially you say in London and you believe that ULEZ is fully warranted. Funny how there was NOT enough freely available evidence that Sadiq Khan could use, instead he had to waste thousands of £ of taxpayers money getting UCL to write a report which had to be altered because it found the air was already good.

Edited 16 May, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

1 hour ago, skomaz said:

 

A common comment that is often incorrect - for sure ALL traffic would move better if there was less of it but, on certain routes it is actually the buses causing the congestion behind them and slowing each other down - something that I have evidenced in the past to the Local Authority here by way of detailed analysis and mapping of time-stamped GPS data from the buses themselves...   

 

However, for clarity in relation to the earlier bus journey I referenced - it was a journey completed primarily via bus lanes and was not held up by other traffic or parking as the route is well patrolled on a daily basis against bus lane violations via the local traffic wardens in Renault Zoes (in fact it was actually the opposite with the bus stopping at bus stops holding up the traffic and other buses...).

 

However, I'm sure you'll argue you know better...

You are correct about it is sometimes the buses slowing traffic down, this is in many parts of the country due to the introduction of OMO (One man Operation) buses where the driver has take the fares and issue tickets as passengers board, this takes time. Before, they used to have a conductor on board who would ring the bell so the bus get on the move again while the conductor would collect the fares. This only happened when the buses were privatised in order to make more profit, once again capitalism raises its head at the inconvenience of others.

17 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

You are correct about it is sometimes the buses slowing traffic down, this is in many parts of the country due to the introduction of OMO (One man Operation) buses where the driver has take the fares and issue tickets as passengers board, this takes time. Before, they used to have a conductor on board who would ring the bell so the bus get on the move again while the conductor would collect the fares. This only happened when the buses were privatised in order to make more profit, once again capitalism raises its head at the inconvenience of others.

 

 

 

Selnec existed before Greater Manchester existed and was operated by the Council. Later to become GM buses in 1974, privatised in 1994 then sold off in 1996. From what i remember.

2 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

 

 

Selnec existed before Greater Manchester existed and was operated by the Council. Later to become GM buses in 1974, privatised in 1994 then sold off in 1996. From what i remember.

No we never had those, we used machines made by Setright, which the conductor would wear on a leather strap and when they went to OMO operation, the same machine was mounted on a motorised plinth as shown on the photo.   

 

 

Anyway, back the normal service and topic, I was wrong about Vauxhall making electric cars the same monthly payment as their ICE versions. The correct information is that ICE versions were paid for over 4 years and the electric ones over 5 years, which still makes them more expensive to buy and means the private buyer now has to keep the same car for a year longer before they can actually own the car.

2 hours ago, skomaz said:

A common comment that is often incorrect - for sure ALL traffic would move better if there was less of it but, on certain routes it is actually the buses causing the congestion behind them and slowing each other down - something that I have evidenced in the past to the Local Authority here by way of detailed analysis and mapping of time-stamped GPS data from the buses themselves...   

Is that due to bus stops or the physically large vehicle squeezing past narrow roads with cars parked on either side?

Was there any pattern as to why that is the case?

 

For 40 people, half of a DD bus. Do you think it's faster for a bus to take them along its route and stop at different stops? Or up to 40 cars on the same bit of road network at the same time?

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

OK then, so when are you giving up your cars, you already apparently live in an area which has a dense PT system so you don't need your cars, you could use the more sustainable solution that you are so keen for others to adopt, are you going to lead by example? Of course not, silly me for even thinking you would.

Unless hugely economically beneficial to drive. I have already given up cars when travelling into the city or anywhere within home's scooter distance.

 

But I've given up on the idea of taking local bus rides due to sitting in the same congestion as car. Hence my view more has to be done to tempt people out of cars, reducing congestion. Also why I'm interested in how buses causing congestion.

 

Your whole post reads rather strange, tone sound like having a go at me,

I'm having a hard time gauge your stance, whether pro buses or pro cars. I personally think to be pro bus, you'd have to be pro measures to make bus seem more attractive. But you seem against ULEZ.

 

 

 

 

Question to all, what is the best solution to "getting around"?

ICE cars are the status quo, but they pollute too much and there's too many on the road creating congestion. EV pollute a lot less over its lifetime and especially so during use. But problem of congestion isn't solved. People are also against public transport, not enough seem to use park and ride in densely populated area.

Then what is the long term solution?

 

@wyx087 What is a home Scooter?

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Is that due to bus stops or the physically large vehicle squeezing past narrow roads with cars parked on either side?

Was there any pattern as to why that is the case?

 

For 40 people, half of a DD bus. Do you think it's faster for a bus to take them along its route and stop at different stops? Or up to 40 cars on the same bit of road network at the same time?

 

The main delays were from stops and boarding and a lighting times, or from delays to all traffic reflected back upstream from buses at stops further downstream, or from buses being unable to pass other stopped buses due to the lack of bus stop laybys.

 

Re your 40 cars vs one bus, on an open road with the same vehicle speed the bus will be marginally quicker simply due to its shorter length.  But as soon as you introduce a stop I'd expect it might be almost a dead heat at best for the bus, or more likely the cars quicker.  This is bearing in mind the saturation flow for a single lane is around 1860 passenger car units per hour, so 31 per minute and the stop delay for a bus is typically 2 to 3 minutes, meaning 60 or more cars could, in theory, pass whilst the bus is delayed. 

 

And finally, my view is that micro mobility is the ultimate beneficial way forward, albeit I think that needs to include 'micro' cars. 

Edited 16 May, 20242 yr by skomaz

10 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Unless hugely economically beneficial to drive. I have already given up cars when travelling into the city or anywhere within home's scooter distance.

 

I presume that the home scooter refers to an e scooter, yes? If yes then you must be aware, that these are illegal to use on public roads or indeed in a public space.

 

10 hours ago, wyx087 said:

But I've given up on the idea of taking local bus rides due to sitting in the same congestion as car. Hence my view more has to be done to tempt people out of cars, reducing congestion. Also why I'm interested in how buses causing congestion.

 

I find it very interesting that you state that you have given up on bus rides due to sitting in the same congestion as car, and yet in earlier post you were advocating that people should PT as sustainable solutions, but again, you are not taking your own advice, so clearly you seem to think that you are special and everyone else has to give up their cars, use sustainable PT so that you drive from A to B with clear road as if you were the King, is that it??

 

If actually took the effort to read posts, or did a bit of research you would have discovered why it is that buses cause congestion, it is to do with them being operated by driver only (OMO) largely assisted by an incompetent government allowing the introduction of these buses to remove the old half cab type which used to have a conductor on board to take fares while the bus was kept moving to speed up the traffic flow. The rules were changed in 1966 so the nationalised buses could be prepared for privatising which finally happened in 1988. So the congestion was actually brought about by HM Government. Once privatised, profit became the essential item, prices rose rapidly, services cut, rural areas were often stripped of any bus service at all so the rise of the private car began.
 

Once upon a time, it was very common on Chelmsford Town services (my route was a 10 minute service) using buses like this Bristol FLF seating 70 with 12 standing at peak times to see 2, 3 and sometimes 4 of one after the other, full up with the first bus being the scheduled service and the other as duplicates or reliefs, such was the demand for PT. We have had special "Works Services" that would take workers to their factories around the town in the morning and in the evening take them home again. Those services also stopped and workers started buying cars and driving to work each day.

 

So you want to blame someone for the massive congestion and the so perceived bad air quality (even though data shows it is not), then blame the governments over the years for sowing the seeds of the car culture for their idiotic culling of road and rail PT and selling them off to the highest bidders.

 

Then in 1966 these began to be phased out and replaced with these Bristol VR, again similar capacity and one man operated.

 

 

These days, the fares are so expensive and the car has become transport of choice, chiefly brought about the selling of the state owned buses and also the railways, these days we get just 1 of these single deck shuttle buses every 15 to 20 minutes which now largely run about almost empty.

 

 

 

And yes, we do have park and ride and these are the buses that operate that, run by Essex County Council.

 

 

10 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Your whole post reads rather strange, tone sound like having a go at me,

I'm having a hard time gauge your stance, whether pro buses or pro cars. I personally think to be pro bus, you'd have to be pro measures to make bus seem more attractive. But you seem against ULEZ.

 

Yes, I was having a go at you, it should be no surprise to anybody when you always change the narrative, even though myself and others have perfectly good and valid points, but you always try to belittle those who dare to think differently to you.

 

My stance is neither pro buses or pro cars and I have a free bus pass, but as I pointed out earlier about standing out in the rain waiting for a bus to take me shopping, which when it came along would still leave me needing to catch a further bus or 2 at least to reach the food shops because the they are no longer in the city centre, they are now on retail parks dotted around the edge of the city and there is no suitable direct service, and not a single park has a dedicated bus service, which means that is still some walking to be done to reach the shops. This can take over an hour each way but I can reach the shops in about 10mins by car. Then there is the small matter of trying to carry upto 6 bags of shopping back to the bus stop and then going though all those changes and waiting around for the connections in order to get back home again. You try doing all that in all kinds of weather. One of these bags will have 30 pints of milk for instance, bloody heavy stuff seeing as the milkman delivering is now also a thing of the past.
 

So shopping could easily take up a day as it would be impossible to carry those bags single handed, so it would take 3 maybe 4 trips to do a weeks shopping, would you in all honesty be prepared to that when you reach 75 years of age? Then my son has to be taken to and from his place of work, each day, 13 miles each way, twice a day (3 buses and 90mins to 2 hours each way and costly if I don't take him), my wife to be taken and collected from the Crown Courts when she is on duty. My 92 year old Mother in Law also needs help and care 3 or 4 times a week on the other side of the city, and she needs picking and taking to keep doctors and hospital appointments and then taking home again, so a car is a real necessity for me and so it is for many other people.

 

So even though I have free travel on the buses in my city, they are useless for me. 

 

So hopefully you could be a little bit more understanding of other peoples positions and requirements, you really are in a very different place fiscally and location wise for decent PT services, which you shun because it is not suitable for you, just as for many others it is not suitable. 

 

This will also explain why I'm dubious, of the many of the governments plans as I have seen grand schemes before that were going to greatly enhance everyones lives etc and they all have just turned into a massive sh1tshow.

Edited 17 May, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

This is my beauty.........

36v - 800 watts, I meant 250 watts.   

 

Remove the three very heavy lead acid batteries and replaced with three 92 Wh 12.8v Lithium batteries which made the scooter a good 6 kilos lighter.

No fitted with battery powered indicators, lights, phone holder so I can see GPS speed.

Worcester has excellent cycle paths over much of the city.  Need to find a way to make sure it cannot do over 15.5 mph on public areas and hope law changes accordingly......

Even some spare space in the battery box after the batteries conversion.  A regearing maybe too.  The 48v and 60v version  would be interesting. 

 

 

Quite a few e scooters now available with seats so one can choose standing mode or lob in the seat and seat post for longer journeys.....

 

 

 

Edited 17 May, 20242 yr by lol-lol

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

it should be no surprise to anybody when you always change the narrative

Guess why I've blocked wyx087.  

The final part of this article sums up the artificiality of it all when it comes to targets regarding Zero Emission vehicles

 

The IEA still projects a sales rise in 2024, which would keep us more or less on track for net zero.

Optimists hope more people will buy EVs when cut-price second-hand vehicles come onto the market in Europe and America. But that clear road is not guaranteed.

It may be that EV prices in the West do prove sticky, while China keeps churning out super-cheap vehicles.

If that happens, expect that tension between the desire of Western governments to decarbonise transport and their desire to protect domestic manufacturing champions to grow even more acute.

At some stage they might be forced to choose.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-69022771

5 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

 

 

These days, the fares are so expensive and the car has become transport of choice, chiefly brought about the selling of the state owned buses and also the railways, these days we get just 1 of these single deck shuttle buses every 15 to 20 minutes which now largely run about almost empty.

 

 

 

 

Here in the Greater Manchester area single journeys are capped at £2 for adults or £1 for children and a day ticket for the entire network is £5

We do use the bus occasionally  although I will admit not frequently and I certainly don't use public transport if I need to go into the office near Media City (unless there's some sort of after work activity involving alcohol) even then its  between 1h30m & 1h50m with 3 -5 changes and a mixture of bus & tram as opposed to 40-50 minutes if I drive in.

EDIT: one of our main uses of the bus is if we want to go into Manchester city center shopping

https://tfgm.com/tickets-and-passes/bus-tickets

Edited 17 May, 20242 yr by Winston_Woof

2 hours ago, Paws4Thot said:

Guess why I've blocked wyx087.  

 

Because there is only one thing you like better than blocking people, - telling them and the world you have blocked them.

 

Maybe that isn't quite true, I suspect you enjoy unblocking people so you can publicly block them once again, maybe you are just very forgiving 😀

'Average prices' of EV,s often mentioned really has little to do with much as there are lots of rather expensive BEV,s on the go on UK roads and that will continue to be the case with Business users and private users that want premium cars and might have EV,s and ICE vehicles. 

 

There is going to be used EV,s staying on the roads in the UK unless they are exported and we know that 22% of new car Registrations and 10% of van first registrations will be electric.

 

@lol-lol The sit on electric scooters are never going to be legal for use on public roads and pavements in the UK and anyone with one used on the roads or pavements might well have it seized at any time day or night. 

1 hour ago, Ootohere said:

'Average prices' of EV,s often mentioned really has little to do with much as there are lots of rather expensive BEV,s on the go on UK roads and that will continue to be the case with Business users and private users that want premium cars and might have EV,s and ICE vehicles. 

 

There is going to be used EV,s staying on the roads in the UK unless they are exported and we know that 22% of new car Registrations and 10% of van first registrations will be electric.

 

@lol-lol The sit on electric scooters are never going to be legal for use on public roads and pavements in the UK and anyone with one used on the roads or pavements might well have it seized at any time day or night. 

 

Happy to register mine.  Big enough to put a Reg plate etc on it.  Insurance, already got motorcycle pass, indicator, lights etc......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 17 May, 20242 yr by lol-lol

12 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Happy to register mine.  Big enough to put a Reg plate etc on it.  Insurance, already got motorcycle past test, insurance etc......

 

 

 

 

 

The problem with those that are legal, the ones being trailed by local councils on a hire basis is that although they do have a registration plate, the font on them is small that they are impossible to read in the event that you need to do so, unless the rider actually stops in the event of any problems. Should they ride off, you have no chance of taking down the plate details.

5 hours ago, lol-lol said:

This is my beauty.........

36v - 800 watts, I meant 250 watts.   

 

Remove the three very heavy lead acid batteries and replaced with three 92 Ah 12.8v Lithium batteries which made the scooter a good 6 kilos lighter.

No fitted with battery powered indicators, lights, phone holder so I can see GPS speed.

Worcester has excellent cycle paths over much of the city.  Need to find a way to make sure it cannot do over 15.5 mph on public areas and hope law changes accordingly......

Even some spare space in the battery box after the batteries conversion.  A regearing maybe too.  The 48v and 60v version  would be interesting. 

 

 

Quite a few e scooters now available with seats so one can choose standing mode or lob in the seat and seat post for longer journeys.....

 

 

 

 

Hmmm...   Currently totally illegal to use anywhere in public which is unlikely to change.

 

You and your colleagues seem to like breaking the law...

Here's a question.

How many Class 3 Mobility Scooters have reg plates on them?

https://aspire2.co.uk/collections/class-3-mobility-scooters



Why do we never see this with Reg Plates on even though they are supposed to be registered with DVLA?

Also why is insurance cover not compulsory?

https://www.gov.uk/mobility-scooters-and-powered-wheelchairs-rules/vehicle-tax-registration-and-insurance

16 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

Here's a question.

How many Class 3 Mobility Scooters have reg plates on them?

https://aspire2.co.uk/collections/class-3-mobility-scooters



Why do we never see this with Reg Plates on even though they are supposed to be registered with DVLA?

Also why is insurance cover not compulsory?

https://www.gov.uk/mobility-scooters-and-powered-wheelchairs-rules/vehicle-tax-registration-and-insurance

 

I believe that is because they are deemed to be an 'invalid carriage', have a maximum top speed of only 8mph and you don't need a licence for one...   even though they should be 'registered' with the DVLA but I could be wrong!

 

Using mobility scooters and powered wheelchairs: Vehicle tax, registration and insurance - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Edited 17 May, 20242 yr by skomaz

31 minutes ago, skomaz said:

 

Hmmm...   Currently totally illegal to use anywhere in public which is unlikely to change.

 

You and your colleagues seem to like breaking the law...

 

 

5 minutes ago, skomaz said:

 

I believe that is because they are deemed to be an 'invalid carriage', have a maximum top speed of only 8mph and you don't need a licence for one...   even though they should be 'registered' with the DVLA but I could be wrong!

 

Using mobility scooters and powered wheelchairs: Vehicle tax, registration and insurance - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

That would be the same link I provided ;o)

It was a semi rhetorical question 

I mean if these can be used unlicensed and unisured why cant e scooters?

#justcurious

5 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

That would be the same link I provided ;o)
 

 

Oops - SNAP!

 

I think the difference is probably to do with maximum speeds etc. and simply because legislation hasn't yet caught up with them.  Also they are classed as 'motor vehicles' rather than 'invalid carriages' which have a lot of exemptions.

 

A Class 3 needs insurance if over a certain weight but at such low speeds is unlikely to do much damage.  A scooter can travel much faster and some are quite heavy so the kinetic energy of them would do much more damage.

 

At some point in the future I'd expect e-scooters will have a separate designated class based on power and weight, above which they will start to be classed as motorbikes...

Edited 17 May, 20242 yr by skomaz

7 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I find it very interesting that you state that you have given up on bus rides due to sitting in the same congestion as car, and yet in earlier post you were advocating that people should PT as sustainable solutions, but again, you are not taking your own advice, so clearly you seem to think that you are special and everyone else has to give up their cars, use sustainable PT so that you drive from A to B with clear road as if you were the King, is that it??

Nice job redirecting the narrative. It's obviously your strong suit, rather than backing up your claims with evidence.

 

When there is a critical mass of people not clogging up the road with unnecessary cars I will look to go down to 1 car and only drive a car for long distances out of M25. Before then, as I said, my family have whole heartedly adopted public transport when it is efficient (cost and/or time). To my family, getting about does not equal to driving car, it always starts a quick evaluation of what's the best mode of transport.

 

Again, just like EV's. None of what I'm talking about is looking to get people to change today. I'm simply raising awareness and planting the idea. But people like you always seems to take it personally as though I'm commanding a change right now, this hour.

 

7 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes, I was having a go at you, it should be no surprise to anybody when you always change the narrative, even though myself and others have perfectly good and valid points, but you always try to belittle those who dare to think differently to you.

I would be very interested if you can quote the bits that make you feel I have changed the narrative. What was I writing before that is different now?

 

It would be good to back up your claims for once.