10 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

One of the best and balanced views I've heard and falls broadly in line with my own viewpoint, it should down to choice particularly during the infancy of electrification and his analogy with CFL lamps v LEDs is great. He also mentioned the early adopters are likely to be the more affluent folk, who have driveways etc and may not be doing long distances etc and judging by many of the those that have BEV's is pretty much on the money. Thanks for sharing.

 

One of the opening statements about taking a horse to water  ties in with my own view.

Yes EV Technology is fascinating (and yes there is a place for it)  however there is an artificial rather than natural drive to get it too market.

@Winston_Woof

He was losing employees and also paying lots in fuel prices for diesels. There was Free Public Charging on the vehicles routes or most during Covid which was when his business expanded greatly.

The Scottish Government gave very good grants to businesses to move to EV,s.

There are No Motorways North of Perth.     The Jags were / are AWD and that is what they got for business use and personal use. 

Nothing to do with changing slow cars for fast cars.  The vans had a max 50 mph speed limit on single carriageways which is most places not on the A9 or A90 so the area they were driving from and too which is basically Aberdeenshire.

 

 

Edited 28 May, 20242 yr by Ootohere

20 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

There was Free Public Charging on the vehicles routes or most during Covid which was when his business expanded greatly.

 

 

 

Why the hell should anyone get free "fuel" for anything ? I didn't see anyone offering free diesel/petrol in market force driven environments during covid (or at any other time)

.

The only reason that happened is because of  the artificiality of the drive to increase EV sales rather than EV sales being driven by normal market forces.

Edited 28 May, 20242 yr by Winston_Woof

Just worry about your area, and i doubt that your taxes were paying for their electricity, or even your Electricity and Gas bill were contributing.

 

It was,

Because Scotland or the Government were going towards Net Zero an Scotland is energy rich & the EU was throwing money it,s way.

Many were peed off that Companies were getting tax payer funded incentives while making lots of money.

 

When the Grants were given to Local Authorities and Business to put in chargers they were required to dispense the electricity to charge at no cost to the public for 12 months. Some stopped doing it after 12 months and some have taken until years later like 2024 to stop and have a tariff. 

 

Because England lacks resources and requires to Import so much energy / electricity it is a rather different place. 

It has a Government for the UK and not just one for England.  & keeps doing stuff just to suit some.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 28 May, 20242 yr by Ootohere

regardless of which Government it is (and this is global) then without things like tax incentives at point of sale and (in some cases) free charging (not to mention targets to have Zero emissions at the tail pipe) the number & variety of EVs on the road would be far lower than if market forces alone prevaricated.

We are where we are because those in England choose who the Westminster Government is or will be and that the UK should leave the EU.

 

Like it or lump it, it is what it is.  Keep on truckin. 

did you miss the bit where I said this was global artificiality ? It's not a Scotland v England points scoring contest ;o)

It is actually. 

England put a halt to onshore wind, put carbon capture into a competition, keeps talking and not doing.

So basically it is time the Pylons go up, the electricity in the south costs more to buy than in the north or in Scotland.

 

As far as Global, that is where the Vehicles are coming from, and the oil (&gas) for the ICE vehicles in the UK & for heating homes.

 

Some places are just not trying.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 28 May, 20242 yr by Ootohere

3 hours ago, Ootohere said:

@Graham Butcher You are so out of date on Rep Mobiles. Commercial Travellers, company drivers, technicians.

Scotland is a wealthy country with jobs for technicians and others that get good means of transport, higher range EV,s as an example.

I seriously doubt that things have changed much in respect of rep mobiles etc in the short time I have been retired, and before that I have been a company car keeper/driver over 40 years. When it comes to company cars that are not regarded as pool cars, i.e., a car that the employee takes home and uses it personal social and domestic use, then the employee also gets a choice in the car stakes as they pay BIK tax on it. The only time when that does take place is if an employee leaves and the new recruit gets to take over an existing car.

 

I don't know of any company that gives their employees a top rung car from a premium company, most companies that I know, and friends who are driving company cars tell me that they are given a budget of upto £x for their new cars and that is how I came to get a flagship model from Skoda whereas the same budget would only get me from their sister company Audi, a A4 Tech with limited spec, whereas I had the lot including a DVD player with surround sound, TV, and cooled seats etc as standard, and it also benefited the company as well, despite the list price being almost equal, the lease deal was much less as the residual value after 3 years was considerably higher than the Audi. So I had more space, more luxury, more tech and toys than many colleagues who were badge snobs, and yet both cars shared the same engines and running gear.

3 hours ago, Ootohere said:

Really what you see or as it is do not see and who you do not meet because you re not charging an EV is the issue.

The Expensive cars are very much used by employees, and directors and sole traders and covering high miles and public charging while doing it.

I know one company owner that during Covid gave his employees Jag EV instead of Transit Connect after he got one himself because they only had a few boxes of their product to deliver and he got the loans, cut the fuel cost and he was fed up of the speeding tickets the Fords were getting due to their limited max speed.

.....................

Basically, Go north young man and you might see the difference from the south.

& make it further than the north of England which is not even half way up. 

If I was working and had to charge an EV at a public charger during the working day, then I would not be chatting to other EV drivers or taking much notice of what was or was not there, I'd be busy on the phone and catching up with some admin.

 

What happens up north has little to with what happens down south, so I could be saying to you;- Basically, Go south young man, and you might see the difference from the north and indeed Scotland.😊 We have already said that Scotland does appear to be way ahead of England in terms of both the abundance of energy and its charging infrastructure.

 

Also Scotland has its own government and can and does things differently to England. 

 

3 hours ago, Ootohere said:

Just worry about your area, and i doubt that your taxes were paying for their electricity, or even your Electricity and Gas bill were contributing.

 

It was,

Because Scotland or the Government were going towards Net Zero an Scotland is energy rich & the EU was throwing money it,s way.

Many were peed off that Companies were getting tax payer funded incentives while making lots of money.

England also had loads of EU money thrown its way as well, but it would seem as if we, the public were not openly told where the funding for certain projects came from, leading the vast majority of the public believing that it came from Westminster, such was the high degree of smoke and mirrors being deployed with the ultimate aim of ensuring that the events of 2016 actually happened as planned. It was never in the public interest, but they employed clever tricks and subterfuge to convince us that it was. 

We also had more companies growing through the Covid period, and of course many got taxpayer funded incentives while they were loads of money, in fact there were mpre billionaires created in that period then ever before I think you'll find.

Edited 28 May, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

@Graham Butcher  Sorry what what you do not know really is an issue for you.  Not me. I know what i know.

About how EV vans were OK for employees using for their own use and no BIK and then the HMRC getting their knickers in a twist.

 

I know you get about a lot, well get out and meet more EV drivers maybe and widen your knowledge on who gets what.

 

Many are not chatty at EV charging points and just act deaf, dumb and blind and ignore people needing a charge while they go to 100% yet live local and are going no place.

 

But some are friendly and if i see someone having issues getting a charger, or one working i might stop charging and let them on.

 

Scotland is known for people being friendly.   (Not everyone obviously.)

 It makes a big difference. It is nice to be nice.   Not everyone is nice or chatty, but they might give an answer when you ask WTF they think they are doing blocking chargers and not charging.  It is good to talk.

Edited 28 May, 20242 yr by Ootohere

2 hours ago, Ootohere said:

@Graham Butcher  Sorry what what you do not know really is an issue for you.  Not me. I know what i know.

About how EV vans were OK for employees using for their own use and no BIK and then the HMRC getting their knickers in a twist.

 

I know you get about a lot, well get out and meet more EV drivers maybe and widen your knowledge on who gets what.

 

Many are not chatty at EV charging points and just act deaf, dumb and blind and ignore people needing a charge while they go to 100% yet live local and are going no place.

 

But some are friendly and if i see someone having issues getting a charger, or one working i might stop charging and let them on.

 

Scotland is known for people being friendly.   (Not everyone obviously.)

 It makes a big difference. It is nice to be nice.   Not everyone is nice or chatty, but they might give an answer when you ask WTF they think they are doing blocking chargers and not charging.  It is good to talk.

Equally, while Scotland maybe as you say, I don't know because I don't live there, and while you do and know the area, just as I do down here in my neck of the woods and so in reality all we can actually talk about really is what the situation is like in our own areas. You get/had free charging in some areas, whereas that does not appear to be the case down here, not in Chelmsford at least as there are as yet no council chargers. The chargers we do have, apart from Tesla, are Podcharge. Geniepoint or BPPulse, and are nearly always empty most of the time when I see them. Always see some Tesla's on charge at the Tesla centre.

 

Regards to free charging, its not really free as all the other ICE drivers are also contributing to the cost of that, regardless wherever that might be in the UK, never come across EV drivers subsidising fossil fuel for us ICE drivers so that is not a level playing field, neither is it when governments create business concessions or indeed BIK reductions for those company EV drivers. The EV market is, like it or not, a false one, there was never any such deals around for diesel when that was the favoured fuel of the future back in the day. Diesel became popular because of the extra mpg figures, made it more attractive to companies and private buyers alike

Edited 28 May, 20242 yr by Graham Butcher

Now the Tesla Chargers are a lot busier up here now where the Tesla non Tesla is available.  Yes a country divided not just by language but but people that know the price and cost of things and when a bargain is a bargain. Like the 6 year interest free loan to buy an EV when that was available and then the loan to buy a used EV.  

7 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

Now the Tesla Chargers are a lot busier up here now where the Tesla non Tesla is available.  Yes a country divided not just by language but but people that know the price and cost of things and when a bargain is a bargain. Like the 6 year interest free loan to buy an EV when that was available and then the loan to buy a used EV.  

I don't know if Tesla here is open to non Tesla or not, all I've ever seen on them are Tesla's. Those 6-year loans etc, again are not creating a level playing field, diesels cost more than their petrol counterparts, but they did not attract special rates / extended loans etc.

4 hours ago, Ootohere said:

Some places are just not trying.

Very interesting to see that the EU aim to be first to achieve Carbon neutral status by 2050, considering when you drill down into the actual live data of the pollution levels of the air we breathe, the UK is already safely into the green safe zone without all the low emission zones and electric vehicles while many parts of the EU are in the moderate to high pollution levels, so its not saying very much for the rest of world is it.

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Very interesting to see that the EU aim to be first to achieve Carbon neutral status by 2050, considering when you drill down into the actual live data of the pollution levels of the air we breathe, the UK is already safely into the green safe zone without all the low emission zones and electric vehicles while many parts of the EU are in the moderate to high pollution levels, so its not saying very much for the rest of world is it.

 

Only in its own ie UK standard which is much higher than the WHO standards 

 

If one has trouble meeting the air quality standards then just fiddle ie set your own poor standards and say you comply. 

 

20 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Only in its own ie UK standard which is much higher than the WHO standards 

 

If one has trouble meeting the air quality standards then just fiddle ie set your own poor standards and say you comply. 

 

Eh, I think you might be saying that the data is UK specific which is lower than the WHO standards, correct? If so then the data is not UK specific but is actual worldwide data in real time.

18 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Eh, I think you might be saying that the data is UK specific which is lower than the WHO standards, correct? If so then the data is not UK specific but is actual worldwide data in real time.

 

The data might be real time but the safe limit is twice as high the UK sets than the WTO I gather.

 

6 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

The data might be real time but the safe limit is twice as high the UK sets than the WTO I gather.

 

I don't think so, the same yardstick is used for every country.

11 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I don't think so, the same yardstick is used for every country.

 

WTO has interim and recommended target ie as low as 5 micrograms in 24 hours for PM 2.5s amd lost of places in the UK exceed that and whilst the UK is meeting the Interim targets it will only hit the end targets in 2040 if it adopts EVs, Heat Pumps for home heating and it knows that.

 

14 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

WTO has interim and recommended target ie as low as 5 micrograms in 24 hours for PM 2.5s amd lost of places in the UK exceed that and whilst the UK is meeting the Interim targets it will only hit the end targets in 2040 if it adopts EVs, Heat Pumps for home heating and it knows that.

 

Be that as it may, the point I was making is that the instruments used to take the measurements are all supposed to be calibrated to the same standard, so the UK shows green while parts of Europe showing various shades of yellow through to orange and red, then we must be doing better than other places.

20 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Around here, we have many ex council estates, which are HA owned and some of the newer ones do have driveways, but they are few and far between. WE do also have loads of older style larger houses with huge gardens and drives, all are private houses and simply loads of new private estates being built all around the outskirts of the city which either integral garages and or drives and it is these areas that has the most of the higher end electric cars, and a few have 2 electric cars, of which Tesla's seem to be the popular choice (white ones of course).

High end electric cars, and you mention the most popular is a white Tesla. A base spec Model 3 in white (the only no cost option paint colour) is £39,990. That's assuming they were bought new.

7 minutes ago, apd007 said:

High end electric cars, and you mention the most popular is a white Tesla. A base spec Model 3 in white (the only no cost option paint colour) is £39,990. That's assuming they were bought new.

Lots of them are model Y and X as well as S models. 

25 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Lots of them are model Y and X as well as S models. 

Base Model Y in white is "only" £45k. Model S I don't think have been on sale, excluding the Plaid version, in the UK for a few years. Irrespective though of the price of the vehicle, unless you have means of charging it cheaply at home on a drive or in a garage then you're going to struggle to charge any electric car. I'm not saying an electric car is the answer to every question, if I was still having to drive all over the country with little to no notice as in a previous job then I'd be in an ICE vehicle. But, at the same time, if I didn't have a driveway where I could charge my car then I wouldn't be able to have an electric car. I don't see the cost of the vehicles as much of a barrier to entry if you're in the market for a new car, rather have you got somewhere to charge it cheaply and with house electrics up-to-date enough to have a home charger.

 

 

Edit :- correct grammar.

Edit :- corrected grammar again, 😕

Edited 28 May, 20242 yr by apd007

20 minutes ago, apd007 said:

Base Model Y in white is "only" £45k. Model S I don't think have been on sale, excluding the Plaid version, in the UK for a few years. Irrespective though of the price of the vehicle, unless you have means of charging it cheaply at home on a drive or in a garage then you're going to struggle to charge any electric car. I'm not saying an electric car is the answer to every question, if I was still having to drive all over the country with little to no notice as in a previous job then I'd be in an ICE vehicle. But, at the same time, if I didn't have a driveway where I could charge my car then I wouldn't be able to have an electric car. I don't see the cost of the vehicles as much of a barrier to entry if you're in the market for a new car, rather have you got somewhere to charge it cheaply and with house electrics up-to-date enough to have a home charger.

 

 

Edit :- correct grammar.

Edit :- corrected grammar again, 😕

Yes, correct, but my point was not that all electric cars are expensive, but the ones that can normally be seen around my area tend to be the expensive versions. There are base models in all ranges of cars and even those Tesla are way more expensive than many others. The iX are £71k for the base model, i7 = £102k for the base model, EQS = £117k base model, i-Pace = £70k base model, Taycan = £86k base model.