1 minute ago, Graham Butcher said:

This is a more informative view of the fire, and before everyone pours scorn on this without watching and paying attention to he says, he is not anti BEV at all, but he is anti rushing through the enforcement before we have learned enough and put mitigating routines in place to enhance safety and learned how to prevent such massive events from happening, He actually does make a lot of sense if only people will give him the chance to explain and not be so quick to rubbish anybody who dares to have a different point of view. 

 

There is still so much to learn about battery cars, I have no doubt that we will resolve many of these issues given time.

 

 

 

Why does he talk in such an affected way and is so self righteous in his presentation ?

 

Do you know if he has any engineering qualifications ? 

 

There are valid points here, such a Mercedes using parts many Europeans would regard as below par as well as owner neglect and building safety system being switched off.

 

As sometimes said it often takes two to have an accident or in this case maybe 3 errors ?

 

7 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Gaza death toll over 40k now I gather.

Q park Liverpool not discriminating against EVs. They have actually just installed EV chargers on level 0.

 

Presume fire detection and suppression has been considered at least.

How many people lost their lives in WW1 and WW2 and all the other subsequent wars around the world, and yet wars still continue and each war brings forth more deadly ways of killing each other in ever greater volumes, when will mankind wakeup and see that we are the biggest threat to the world?  We all need to talk more and learn to cooperate.

Edited 15 August, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

9 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

How many people lost their lives in WW1 and WW2 and all the other subsequent wars around the world, and yet wars still continue and each war brings forth more deadly ways of killing each other in ever greater volumes, when will mankind wakeup and see that we are the biggest threat to the world?  We all need to talk more and learn to cooperate.

 

 

Thank you very much @Stonekeeper excellent sources and very eye opening.

 

Parked for 60 hours before self igniting, there's some serious questions to be answered!

 

But the theme I sense from those articles is regarding battery supplier and thus quality, rather than battery technology as a whole.

 

The battery supply chain problem is being worked on:

https://www.globalbattery.org/battery-passport/

https://www.circularise.com/blogs/eu-battery-passport-regulation-requirements

 

 

8 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Why does he talk in such an affected way and is so self righteous in his presentation ?

 

Do you know if he has any engineering qualifications ? 

 

There are valid points here, such a Mercedes using parts many Europeans would regard as below par as well as owner neglect and building safety system being switched off.

 

As sometimes said it often takes two to have an accident or in this case maybe 3 errors ?

 

I suspect that he talks in that manner for a number of reasons, perhaps one of them being the fact that he needs to pad it out a bit to make his videos longer? I don't know the guy, maybe that is the way he talks normally, we all can point fingers at others for the way they talk etc, its what makes us all individuals is it not?

 

Yes he is a fully qualified engineer with degrees, so he does indeed know a lot more than most of us do, motor cars has been his whole life, so is well worth a watch IMV, yes his mannerisms could get on your nerves, but some of that is maybe his attempt to inject some ossie humour?  

3 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Thank you very much @Stonekeeper excellent sources and very eye opening.

 

Parked for 60 hours before self igniting, there's some serious questions to be answered!

 

But the theme I sense from those articles is regarding battery supplier and thus quality, rather than battery technology as a whole.

 

The battery supply chain problem is being worked on:

https://www.globalbattery.org/battery-passport/

https://www.circularise.com/blogs/eu-battery-passport-regulation-requirements

 

 

 

I use https://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/?search=Electric vehicle&lang=en&searchheadlines=1

 

EVs – whether fully electric (BEV) or plug-in hybrids (PHEV) – sold worldwide were at 1.35 million in July, of which 0.88 million were in China, where they were up 31 per cent year-on-year, the data showed.

PHEVs sold in China in the first seven months of 2024 were up 70 per cent from last year.

 

BYD, China’s and the world’s biggest EV maker, reported in the same period increases of 13 per cent and 44 per cent in its global BEV and PHEV sales, respectively.

In Europe, monthly sales were down 7.8 per cent in July, to year-to-date figures in line with 2023. In the seven months to July, they dropped by 12 per cent in Germany, the EU’s biggest EV market.

In the United States and Canada, EV sales were up 7.1 per cent in July.

 

https://cyprus-mail.com/2024/08/15/global-electric-vehicle-sales-increase-by-21-per-cent-in-july/

8 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

 

One of my all-time great bands

1 minute ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

I use https://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/?search=Electric vehicle&lang=en&searchheadlines=1

 

EVs – whether fully electric (BEV) or plug-in hybrids (PHEV) – sold worldwide were at 1.35 million in July, of which 0.88 million were in China, where they were up 31 per cent year-on-year, the data showed.

PHEVs sold in China in the first seven months of 2024 were up 70 per cent from last year.

 

BYD, China’s and the world’s biggest EV maker, reported in the same period increases of 13 per cent and 44 per cent in its global BEV and PHEV sales, respectively.

In Europe, monthly sales were down 7.8 per cent in July, to year-to-date figures in line with 2023. In the seven months to July, they dropped by 12 per cent in Germany, the EU’s biggest EV market.

In the United States and Canada, EV sales were up 7.1 per cent in July.

 

https://cyprus-mail.com/2024/08/15/global-electric-vehicle-sales-increase-by-21-per-cent-in-july/

 

The dropping of EV subsidies in Europe, particularly Germany, had much to do with the drop in sales. 

 

EV do not need subsidies any more. UK got it right dropping those subsidies more than 2 years ago.

 

Subsidies should be more about keeping public services running which is very difficult when one if expecting drivers to run their cars for 45p per mile !!

 

1 minute ago, Graham Butcher said:

One of my all-time great bands

 

Yet Gilmour and Waters have not really got on for decades.

 

16 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Yet Gilmour and Waters have not really got on for decades.

 

David Gilmour used to have a big plane collection at North Weald airfield, I know one of his aircraft engineers who tells me of many of his aviation adventures. He now looks after 2 spitfires and a North American P51D on the airfield.

Edited 15 August, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

The potential problem with BEVs is predominantly the battery, as it actually consists of upto around 9,000 separate cells (depending on the battery and its capacity). Each cell has 2 welded connections to enable them to connect to other cells in a configuration dictated by the overall voltage required and energy required. Each cell has to be monitored and regulated to ensure it performs and charges correctly. That is an awful amount of possible poor connection points in the battery alone on the welds plus all the wiring connections etc to monitor the cells even before you consider the other controls (all electronic) to control the speed, and all the other controls etc that are required to make it all work.

 

Some of these cells are cylindrical, such as those in Teslas and these probably have the best cooling of them all as each cell is encased in a metal shell and I think Tesla have a liquid cooling system for their batteries. Other use pouch type cells which are both cheaper to make and far more prone to mechanical damage being as they are basically a foil bag and are far more difficult to regulate their temperature.

 

Also, I have heard many people claim that BEV cars are much simpler and less complicated than an ICE vehicle, and while an ICE may have around 2,000 moving parts compared to just 20 on a BEV, think again about the number of cells required. In Tesla model Y, there are 4,400 cells, so that's 8,800 welds just in the basic battery electric circuit before we consider the cell monitoring and all the rest of controls so there is way more potential for problems with BEV cars. Any cell to suffer a problem, or a suspect weld, maybe caused by water damage etc has the potential to send the entire battery pack into uncontrolled thermal runaway, and that looks likely to be the cause of the devastating fire in Korea.

 

New 4680 battery tech means cheaper Tesla Model Y | Drive

Edited 15 August, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

1 hour ago, Ootohere said:

@Graham Butcher  Is this UK Government ban on EV,s in their car parks about our car parks?

 

Is it Car Parks used by the UK Government, or under building used by the Government.    Owned by us, the UK public. 

Is it all underground car parks or just some?

 

The Scottish Government have not banned EV,s from the Underground Car Park at the parliament building @ Holyrood.

 

I Hope KC3 will be keeping EV,s well clear of Windsor Castle. We paid to restore that already. 

No this ban is only currently applicable to Government buildings in the Westminster area as far as I know. I'm pretty sure that I posted a link to the government document many months ago here somewhere. That suggest to me that someone at least is well aware of the possible hazards but does not want information to spoil the narrative and so it is restricted to their own buildings.

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Please do. I've not seen this in any credible the news.

I had not posted any link to it before because of the predicted instant rubbishing of it and the shooting of the messenger, i.e. me.

How is it going around Westminster for those dying from EV fires?

 

As long as the parliament is safe and it is just the general public at risk that will be the Government way. 

33 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

The potential problem with BEVs is predominantly the battery, as it actually consists of upto around 9,000 separate cells (depending on the battery and its capacity). Each cell has 2 welded connections to enable them to connect to other cells in a configuration dictated by the overall voltage required and energy required. Each cell has to be monitored and regulated to ensure it performs and charges correctly. That is an awful amount of possible poor connection points in the battery alone on the welds plus all the wiring connections etc to monitor the cells even before you consider the other controls (all electronic) to control the speed, and all the other controls etc that are required to make it all work.

 

Some of these cells are cylindrical, such as those in Teslas and these probably have the best cooling of them all as each cell is encased in a metal shell and I think Tesla have a liquid cooling system for their batteries. Other use pouch type cells which are both cheaper to make and far more prone to mechanical damage being as they are basically a foil bag and are far more difficult to regulate their temperature.

 

Also, I have heard many people claim that BEV cars are much simpler and less complicated than an ICE vehicle, and while an ICE may have around 2,000 moving parts compared to just 20 on a BEV, think again about the number of cells required. In Tesla model Y, there are 4,400 cells, so that's 8,800 welds just in the basic battery electric circuit before we consider the cell monitoring and all the rest of controls so there is way more potential for problems with BEV cars. Any cell to suffer a problem, or a suspect weld, maybe caused by water damage etc has the potential to send the entire battery pack into uncontrolled thermal runaway, and that looks likely to be the cause of the devastating fire in Korea.

 

New 4680 battery tech means cheaper Tesla Model Y | Drive

It's all very theoretical isn't it. Lots of potential stemmed from a long string of guesses based on surface level understanding.

 

Based on the number of welds per car multiplied by number of EV's sold, if each of the fires in all of BEV history were result of bad weld, that is still extremely low failure rate.

 

Just from my previous ICE related experience, a high percentage of VAG drivers experienced premature water pump failure.

 

May be that's why ICE get 3 years while battery and motor get 8 years warranty across the industry.

 

 

24 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I had not posted any link to it before because of the predicted instant rubbishing of it and the shooting of the messenger, i.e. me.

You certainly haven't helped your case by posting a video. 😛 

Never heard of EREV's before. 

 

Quote

The extended range electric vehicle (EREV) has become the fastest growing propulsion system for cars in China. EREV sales have more than doubled in that country in the past year and now account for 30% of the country’s plug-in hybrid sales, according to research service BNEF. They will begin arriving in America next year when Stellantis rolls out the Ramcharger, an EREV version of its Ram 1500 pickup truck that it says will have a 690 mile (1110 km) driving range. The company says the Ramcharger is being “built to pull an entire skeptical demographic” into the electric vehicle age.

 

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/08/15/the-new-acronym-in-the-ev-revolution-is-erev-extended-range-electric-vehicle/?fbclid=IwY2xjawEq9YVleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHVmRz3VFiiK33vTBDS6P39oe5bNB400BlA_0wgnFH68ftmHZfnd4mWyJ0w_aem_4BhusNLmiMdedTW4nYYZVg 

Bloomberg article cited near the beginning of the above piece depaywalled

https://archive.ph/LGVIB

35 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

You certainly haven't helped your case by posting a video. 😛 

3 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Please do. I've not seen this in any credible the news.

Video only posted explicitly at your request, this is why I don't normally post anything these days because you always try to rubbish it, it so happens that this is exactly the same incident that @Stonekeeper was also linking to, you don't have to like, but it is nonetheless a fact. 

5 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Video only posted explicitly at your request, this is why I don't normally post anything these days because you always try to rubbish it, it so happens that this is exactly the same incident that @Stonekeeper was also linking to, you don't have to like, but it is nonetheless a fact. 

Sorry you can't see the difference between credible source and armature youtube video. 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

It's all very theoretical isn't it. Lots of potential stemmed from a long string of guesses based on surface level understanding.

 

Again, a fact, every connection whether it be a soldered, screwed, bolted, welded connection is a weak spot in the chain and has a small amount of added resistance to the overall flow of current to the load. The more connections you have, the greater the chances of a possible failure, so not theoretical at all but a scientific fact. I never said that it was certainty that every BEV battery was a ticking time bomb, because it just isn't, but every connection greatly enhances the chances of a problem. 
Just as the more miles a person drives greatly increases the chances of them having a crash at some point in their life, the more raffle tickets you buy will also increase your chance of winning a prize, like it or not, it is once again a fact.

Edited 15 August, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

8 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Sorry you can't see the difference between credible source and armature youtube video. 

 

When you've been talking about EV's so much your autofill uses 'armature' instead of  'amateur'   

9 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Sorry you can't see the difference between credible source and armature youtube video. 

So you think that John Cadogen is a not a fully qualified engineer and his videos are worthless, do me and others a favour and just for once in your life give people credit will you, you are not the only person in the world with some knowledge.

 

If you are going to keep nit-picking everything I say, I may have to break my golden rule of not blocking anyone, but in your case that is getting remarkably close to happening.

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Again, a fact, every connection whether it be a soldered, screwed, bolted, welded connection is a weak spot in the chain and has a small amount of added resistance to the overall flow of current to the load. The more connections you have, the greater the chances of a possible failure, so not theoretical at all but a scientific fact. I never said that it was certainty that every BEV battery was a ticking time bomb, because it just isn't, but every connection greatly enhances the chances of a problem. 
Just as the more miles a person drives greatly increases the chances of them having a crash at some point in their life, the more raffle tickets you buy will also increase your chance of winning a prize, like it or not, it is once again a fact.

Good thing EV's get 8 year battery warranty as standard. Your theorised failure case is obviously so low that it is unlikely to occur in over half of vehicle's typical usable life.

 

I guess ICE's 2000 moving parts is more likely to fail in 8 years so most manufacturer only offer 3 year warranty.

 

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

So you think that John Cadogen is a not a fully qualified engineer and his videos are worthless, do me and others a favour and just for once in your life give people credit will you, you are not the only person in the world with some knowledge.

 

If you are going to keep nit-picking everything I say, I may have to break my golden rule of not blocking anyone, but in your case that is getting remarkably close to happening.

No, it's about the source. The person you've linked is more qualified than Geoff but they are still same category: independent reporting on social media.

During the riots 2 weeks ago, North Finchley was marked as target. I've seen multiple social media reports of violence near where I live and on N Circular. I came back from Ikea Wembley via N Circular that night. Nothing what so ever. Other reports were proven to be fake by other residents. Social media reporting is unreliable in its nature, fabricated bad news spread like wild fire.

A news of such magnitude as whole underground car park bunt out and residents displaced, would have been reported by many established news outlets. It doesn't take long to find, you should try it sometimes.

 

If you don't like people being logical and critical about what you write, then you are free to stop posting. I'm only here to point out the bleeding obvious.

40 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

A news of such magnitude as whole underground car park bunt out and residents displaced, would have been reported by many established news outlets. It doesn't take long to find, you should try it sometimes.

 

I did and confirmed it was real, but I wanted to learn more from a better qualified source, and just rely on a newspaper articles as the journalists don't have much of a clue and many are actually told what to say etc by the editor or above to make sure it fits the required narrative. Now is this the last word or are we going to continue?  

Octopus announce another free hour of electricity tomorrow ie Sunday 18th of August 2024, between 1 pm and 2 pm BST.

 

As a response petrol stations have announced two hours of free petrol.  Nah, I made that up.

 

This free lecky is becoming a thing all over the world where solar, along with wind energy is in such abundance the good lecky suppliers are happy to give away for free.

 

This is likely to extend to longer mid day periods going forward here in the UK but also in Oz, mainland Europe and other places where, despite massive battery storage continuing to be built, closing coal plants for good in Oz, China, Germany and many other countries.

 

Negligible cost for motive energy, very low services costs and falling EV proces.The truth about electric cars. (And low to zero emission so help saves the planet for our kids & grandkids)

 

 

 

 

 

53 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Octopus announce another free hour of electricity tomorrow ie Sunday 18th of August 2024, between 1 pm and 2 pm BST.

 

As a response petrol stations have announced two hours of free petrol.  Nah, I made that up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

which is nice if you are in the privileged minority who can charge at home ;o)

58 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Octopus announce another free hour of electricity tomorrow ie Sunday 18th of August 2024, between 1 pm and 2 pm BST.

 

4 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

which is nice if you are in the privileged minority who can charge at home ;o)

I don't have an EV, but I know when I'm going to be cooking my Sunday lunch and doing my washing!!!