If individual electronic components are your worries, I think you should be more worried about ICE cars made by many-tiered suppliers as per approach used by legacy auto maker. There's so much unnecessary components due to sub contractors using sub contractors. This is an interesting comparison of 3 EV's, and how Tesla are able to reduce amount of components with their vertical integration:

https://insideevs.com/news/506048/tesla-ford-vw-electrical-architectures/

 

But the truth is, solid state components are far less likely to wear out. The highest failure rate component is not surface mount resistors or small capacitors. It's those larger electrolytic capacitors that are most likely to fail first. They are easiest to replace. But workshop to repair everything on the PCB, including BGA mounted chips are widely available and often don't need circuit diagram to spot the problem.

 

@Graham Butcher, you should stick to worrying about batteries. Take it from me, graduated from one of top university in electronics and have extensive failure experience in this area, both in work and personal hobby of overclocking gaming PC's. Micro-electronics are highly reliable these days and can all be repaired with the right workshop.

On 25/08/2023 at 14:25, Graham Butcher said:

Thanks for posting this, never realised this info was available, I'm over on the left that chart then, pension only pays £1000 a month and just housing takes £600 a month. 😒

 

Apologies for digging this up from a couple of days ago but is it not uncommon, when one finishes employment, certainly is so in the Civil service and with tax free lump sumps from private pension plans which about half of people have and no is mandatory for all employed ie secondary pension scheme, that many, fully acknowledge not all by a long way, not only have the periodic pension, 4 weekly I read as I am preparing to retire myself sometime in the next few months or couple of years, as just turned 62, so in one month in the year one gets two £1k pension payments and, as postulated many have a lump sum of thousands or tens of thousands, tax free, when one retires.  Sure I will get accused of being out of touch but is that not the full story that there is periodic payments but also lump sums as there is salary and bonus in many job ?

 

Living on £1k a month gross or net, I would have thought impossible just about anywhere in the UK never mind London and there is, or should be other state help on council tax as well as other living costs. 

 

The use of EVs on a hourly, daily basis I am sure will become the norm so that people do not have to pay annual insurance, road tax etc for a asset they only use a minority of days a year.  I still find public transport a pain to use, despite Worcester's new £50M railway station and will not use it until the new HS2 station is up and running at Sollihull then I just need my little Zoe, or a driverless taxi to take me to most places in the UK and no other cars in my life.  

 

@lol-lol No problem, I understand about the scheme, but when I retired (already well over retirement age) the small private pension plans from previous employments would have only brought in a few hundreds of £ a year between them and even less if I took a lump sum. I had a few £ saved away that I inherited from my late Mother's estate, which was sadly not what it could have been, but the various recessions had done to her cost of living had entered into a equity release scheme based on her house, for which she received a pittance of a monthly contribution to state pension, so the equity company made a small fortune when I had to hand over the keys to the house.

 

I took advice on what was the best way to handle my pension and was advised to leave it where it is for the time being and manage on the inheritance as the rate of interest on my savings was far lower than the pension pot could hopefully produce based on its performance at the time. Then as the "B" word began to be implemented bit by bit, the shares where the pot was invested took many hits and has seen over 40% of its original value wiped off it. I'm tracking it, and it starts to slowly edge its way up again and then Westminster has a reshuffle, or a new PM etc and it crashes again.

 

I also know from my Mother's experience that they take into account any savings you have and from that it pretty certain that I won't get any help from them as they have also been squeezed by Westminster as they would deem I'm a needy case because I still have a bit of savings.

 

Like you, I also find public transport a pain in the butt to use, even though I have a free bus pass it carries restrictions on the times I can travel free and there never seems to a bus running where I need to go and carrying bags of shopping on the bus is a joke these days. I did my apprenticeship with my local bus company and they were good days, these days public transport is a shell of its self and is no longer fit to be called public transport.  

 

As for road tax or VED, I thought I did good when I got my 2nd hand replacement car after my other one was written off for me by some idiot, the tax on my car is only £35 a year, but sadly my insurance renewal following the accident, even though it was a no fault on my part and the other party's insurer has paid out in full, my new quote for this year has increased by 108% which making me think seriously about selling the car and give up on driving.

Edited 27 August, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

If individual electronic components are your worries, I think you should be more worried about ICE cars made by many-tiered suppliers as per approach used by legacy auto maker. There's so much unnecessary components due to sub contractors using sub contractors. This is an interesting comparison of 3 EV's, and how Tesla are able to reduce amount of components with their vertical integration:

https://insideevs.com/news/506048/tesla-ford-vw-electrical-architectures/

 

But the truth is, solid state components are far less likely to wear out. The highest failure rate component is not surface mount resistors or small capacitors. It's those larger electrolytic capacitors that are most likely to fail first. They are easiest to replace. But workshop to repair everything on the PCB, including BGA mounted chips are widely available and often don't need circuit diagram to spot the problem.

 

@Graham Butcher, you should stick to worrying about batteries. Take it from me, graduated from one of top university in electronics and have extensive failure experience in this area, both in work and personal hobby of overclocking gaming PC's. Micro-electronics are highly reliable these days and can all be repaired with the right workshop.

Well, no, you have misread the situation again. What I was saying, and I also know a thing or 2 about electronics which you may or may not have picked up by now, was that in the olden days the only electronic part in cars was the condenser wired across the points of the distributor as a spark quencher and that the average person with any mechanical knowledge could sort out most breakdowns and get the car going again. That no longer is the case and anyone of those SMD parts or indeed TH parts can quickly ruin your day if they decide to pop their clogs. Some things are self-evident when they fail and others not so, and also today there are not many people who could repair such circuitry as schematics and spares are not available. You should know that the method these days is not to spend time trying to track down what went wrong and failed, but to replace complete units. 

 

When was the last time anybody saw a television repair shop, once upon a time there used to be 2 or 3 in most towns, not any more, we are now a throw away society and replace and that is not cheap nor good for the environment which I find it odd that you don't appear to appreciate that aspect and yet you champion the EV as being good for the environment. It has to better to keep things going for as long as possible, rather than expending a massive amount of energy making new things all the time and disposing of the old when it could be fixed up.

 

It is the TH larger electrolytic capacitors that do often fail, but that can also be quickly and easily replaced and also normally easy to spot as they normally either disgorge their inwards and electrolyte all over the circuit board, or they bulge and vent. Occasionally they might dry out and cease to do any function, but is again easy to spot using the right test equipment which I have. 

Edited 27 August, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

Its ...ok .....guys 🥱, my insomnia is well and truly cured now......zzzzzz😴😴

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

@lol-lol No problem, I understand about the scheme, but when I retired (already well over retirement age) the small private pension plans from previous employments would have only brought in a few hundreds of £ a year between them and even less if I took a lump sum. I had a few £ saved away that I inherited from my late Mother's estate, which was sadly not what it could have been, but the various recessions had done to her cost of living had entered into a equity release scheme based on her house, for which she received a pittance of a monthly contribution to state pension, so the equity company made a small fortune when I had to hand over the keys to the house.

I took advice on what was the best way to handle my pension and was advised to leave it where it is for the time being and manage on the inheritance as the rate of interest on my savings was far lower than the pension pot could hopefully produce based on its performance at the time. Then as the "B" word began to be implemented bit by bit, the shares where the pot was invested took many hits and has seen over 40% of its original value wiped off it. I'm tracking it, and it starts to slowly edge its way up again and then Westminster has a reshuffle, or a new PM etc and it crashes again.

I also know from my Mother's experience that they take into account any savings you have and from that it pretty certain that I won't get any help from them as they have also been squeezed by Westminster as they would deem I'm a needy case because I still have a bit of savings.

Like you, I also find public transport a pain in the butt to use, even though I have a free bus pass it carries restrictions on the times I can travel free and there never seems to a bus running where I need to go and carrying bags of shopping on the bus is a joke these days. I did my apprenticeship with my local bus company and they were good days, these days public transport is a shell of its self and is no longer fit to be called public transport.  

As for road tax or VED, I thought I did good when I got my 2nd hand replacement car after my other one was written off for me by some idiot, the tax on my car is only £35 a year, but sadly my insurance renewal following the accident, even though it was a no fault on my part and the other party's insurer has paid out in full, my new quote for this year has increased by 108% which making me think seriously about selling the car and give up on driving.

 

Thanks for explanation.  We live in strange financial times.  People are loathed to change cars or houses as the currently financial deals are mostly awful at rates of 7% and above.   Managed to get 0% on the two thirds of my son's Clio ETECH purchase over and above the deposit.

 

Pensions that are equity rather than final salary are in a terrible mess with the UK 2 year Gilts at 5% pa make the 1% or so Gilts taken out a year or two ago look very poor investment.  I have spoken to several people and know from my own pension fund that they have effectively lost about a quarter of their value due to UK economy's woes over the last year or so, hopefully the Gilts decline has troughed and will start to recover from here.

 

Car manufacturers and dealers and going to have to suffer low or negative margins to move their cars as the world either enters a recession, or a to it that it is a recession in all but name.  Might be good for buyers with the cash. With my lad, who I hope can be in a position to buy a small flat or house in a year or two when property prices look like they are going to stop falling, bought the hybrid Clio to sure mortgage lenders he can pay a debt and he was verging on getting over £1k in interest per year so would have been taxed on it.

 

Car insurance was a bit of a shock but that seems normal.  I will definitely factor in insurance costs if/when I get a Model 3 Highland, if they drop below £40K and the VED luxury level, as cars that quick must be expensive to insure.  The Zoe EV is not too bad, nor is the Arkana mild hybrid at about £400 per year each.

 

Edited 27 August, 20232 yr by lol-lol

54 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Well, no, you have misread the situation again. What I was saying, and I also know a thing or 2 about electronics which you may or may not have picked up by now, was that in the olden days the only electronic part in cars was the condenser wired across the points of the distributor as a spark quencher and that the average person with any mechanical knowledge could sort out most breakdowns and get the car going again. That no longer is the case and anyone of those SMD parts or indeed TH parts can quickly ruin your day if they decide to pop their clogs.

Well, no, I haven't misread the situation.

 

Once again you are talking about worst case scenario. Once again, I'm saying the chance of failure is extremely low due to high reliability of those components. Just like I've been saying about chance of battery thermal runaway.

 

 

42 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Well, no, I haven't misread the situation.

 

Once again you are talking about worst case scenario. Once again, I'm saying the chance of failure is extremely low due to high reliability of those components. Just like I've been saying about chance of battery thermal runaway.

 

 

Hmm, OK then so why is that I seem to have a pretty constant list of things that need repairing in the electronics sphere I wonder, I'll have to ponder that won't I? Could it be that I'm older and have more experience of things and that I've discovered that things are seldom, what the marketing teams are trying to convince you, that they are? I have asked you before to divulge your age, but you side step that, but I can't help but get that feeling about you that you are fairly young in years. Just like many teenagers think that they know everything and us old fogies know nothing. I used to poke fun at my late Father, especially over his politics, but now, I'm beginning to see his view point and I have to admit that with age comes wisdom and the things that told me to watch for, are indeed beginning to emerge. My sons also went that know it all stage, but I can see how that brashness is slowly slipping away as time goes by...

 

Edit. The other thing about modern electronics is that are assembled by robots and even the dearest bits of electronic test equipment etc actually has built-in obsolescence with parts designed to last x years and production stops and yet the equipment would still be perfect for the job, but they have just designed another that makes the older one obsolete.

 

 

Edited 27 August, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

5 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Hmm, OK then so why is that I seem to have a pretty constant list of things that need repairing in the electronics sphere I wonder, I'll have to ponder that won't I? Could it be that I'm older and have more experience of things and that I've discovered that things are seldom, what the marketing teams are trying to convince you, that they are? I have asked you before to divulge your age, but you side step that, but I can't help but get that feeling about you that you are fairly young in years. Just like many teenagers think that they know everything and us old fogies know nothing. I used to poke fun at my late Father, especially over his politics, but now, I'm beginning to see his view point and I have to admit that with age comes wisdom and the things that told me to watch for, are indeed beginning to emerge. My sons also went that know it all stage, but I can see how that brashness is slowly slipping away as time goes by...

How old are those items? What are their respective quoted MTBF?

Having more to repair does not automatically mean they are unreliable.

 

Failure rate of electronic components are well understood in the electronic industry. If you feel the need to side step this and make it personal, I'm sorry I have lost interest in this discussion because my age has no place in a factual discussion.

39 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

How old are those items? What are their respective quoted MTBF?

Having more to repair does not automatically mean they are unreliable.

 

Failure rate of electronic components are well understood in the electronic industry. If you feel the need to side step this and make it personal, I'm sorry I have lost interest in this discussion because my age has no place in a factual discussion.

Lots of things are well understood in various industries, but that does not equate to being in the best interests of the consumer or the environment. I have some equipment that is years old and has been designed well to last, and then I have items to repair in the past for insistence that were only a few years old fail and parts were none standard and not available even from the manufacturers, they were not even interested in supplying any schematics.

 

On the other hand I have some equipment that is getting on in life made by TTi of Huntingdon, and they have been extremely interested and helpful in the supply of technical info, schematics and parts, often FOC. If ever I was in the position of equipping a new electronics lab for someone, I'd have no hesitation in purchasing / specifying their fantastic range of equipment because they stand by their products.

 

And for the record, I was not trying to make it personal at all, I was trying to get my head around the way you always manage to avoid the issues and try to have the last word on every topic, I don't think it's too personal to ask a person for their age, if they don't to divulge their actual age they could always give an indication of their age group, I never made it a secret of my age, but hey ho whatever.

 

What do you say to we call a truce on this because we both feel that we are right and @xman has already indicated that he is bored with it anyway?

Edited 27 August, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

You can't end things now. I've just ordered another half ton of popcorn. 

 

4 hours ago, @Lee said:

You can't end things now. I've just ordered another half ton of popcorn. 

 

If you can't manage to finish it off, I'll help you out with it as long as its toffee flavoured or sweet. 😂

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

And for the record, I was not trying to make it personal at all, I was trying to get my head around the way you always manage to avoid the issues and try to have the last word on every topic

On the contrary, you always want to have the last word and manage to avoid factual discussions (the ship fire, the destination charging issue). This electric component failure is the same. Going on a tangent about your experiences and dismissing industry knowledge.

 

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

What do you say to we call a truce on this because we both feel that we are right

As you wish. I’ve nothing more to add on this subject when you keep talk about personal experiences.
I’ve talked about reduced electronic components in some EV’s, less things to fail. I’ve also talked about highest failure rate component and how easy to replace them. Finally, I’ve talked about repair workshops that can replace all components on a PCB, smaller does not mean impossible to repair. 

Price of lease on many EVs, including Skoda N-Yak, ID4, Nissan Leaf (silly small sized battery one, I tried to order the proper sized battery one with similar range to the Zoe but long wait), the Toyota lecky B4buyaSubaru, and the out-going Polestar 2 model, new much better model due soon,  all well down in monthly lease costs either to compete with TESLA, shift excess stock/ inventory to get some money in the bank now sales are so relatively poor........

 

 

New Model year coming. MY25.

 

They need to get low emission cars First Registered to ensure Fleet Average in the UK Fleet for manufacturers is met so that they can get on flogging and First Registering the higher emission vehicle and other such stuff.

 

Lots of reasons that 'good prices' or Much Cheapness' comes about with Sales, Leases or just cars going out to lots of places at various times of the year. 

If they have them built or being built then they do need a customer even if the customer is the Manufacturer / Importer first registering them and getting them leased.

Edited 28 August, 20232 yr by toot

 

Here is the dude again prattling on and not having bothered yet to get with the flow.

Charge Place Scotland chargers have different owners / operators and types.

There are tap and pay contactless ones, like BP Pulse and others that you can use the RFID or App at but because of rubbish connectivity / mobile reception many just use a Credit or Debit card at.

 

He does keep going to the West of Scotland, maybe he might get the idea why it is so green and has lochs and waterfalls and the scenery.

Much wetness much of the time. 

 

 

 

 

 

Gotta laugh at those that are interested in the Reduced Tariff cost and then pay the crazy prices for Coffee & Cookies etc.

Do that with a few in the car if you do not usually frequent such places and you will see just how much travelling by EV can be.

There were other Ultra Rapids available to him very near, and he was on the A9 and again did not bother going into Aviemore for the Tesla Surpecharger with a non Tesla. (Pilot scheme.)

Well, he might well have a point if he had to go to the west of Scotland, there is not that much support for EVs. Take a peek at the attached, which shows some of the charge points in The Hague.

 

 

@Graham Butcherhave you been up north much for road trips?

 

He might have a point if he had an EV with pathetic range rather than a pathetic ability to find stuff out.

 

I have been up and around the North Coast 500 in EV,s just a few times and with 100 miles less range than he has.

More of an issue was with cars that needed Super Unleaded and having to carry some more even when getting tanks brimmed in Inverness.

Many times doing the route, before it every had a name.

 

Warnings regularly now on the North Coast 500.    The fun days are long past.  Or more important the night drives done quickly.

 

http://thescottishsun.co.uk/motors/11143590/police-scotland-nc500-speeding-car-drivers

 

Police Scotland have been talking about cuts and during the night having only 2 specialist police vehicles night time to cover the whole of Scotland.

They are having a giraffe.

Edited 28 August, 20232 yr by toot

@tootNo, its been many years since I was last up in Scotland, lovely scenery you have there. The furthest north I ever got was Aberdeen.

Well that is where EV charging is an issue, and north and west of Aberdeen. 

Great driving roads, destroyed by Porsche Taycan & Tesla drivers and others that can not keep their wide cars on their own side of the road or go the speed that others want to be going at but if for some reason you go slow because you know the road or hazards they want passed you and then hold you up once all is good to go. 

 

These will wind him up.  

 

 

 

 

Edited 28 August, 20232 yr by toot

9 minutes ago, toot said:

Well that is where EV charging is an issue, and north and west of Aberdeen. 

Great driving roads, destroyed by Porsche Taycan & Tesla drivers and others that can not keep their wide cars on their own side of the road or go the speed that others want to be going at but if for some reason you go slow because you know the road or hazards they want passed you and then hold you up once all is good to go. 

Yeah, the Taycan is a big fat thing for sure, but I thought Tesla's were to bad.

Edited 28 August, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

A Model S is not,

or any other if the driver can keep near a verge, but you do not know if the car is deciding where to place it on the road.

Never ceases to amaze me just many drivers appear to think that their car is both wider and longer than others are. It makes me so mad to see with people small cars like Fiestas etc, swing out to the crown of the road to make a left turn🙄

A small but related aside I was reading the other day. More than 150 models of new cars are too big for parking spaces.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/aug/26/more-than-150-car-models-too-big-for-regular-uk-parking-spaces