Aa well we never know what will be will be.

 

Irony if it is a clattery diesel that gets you and not a near silent ev or e-scooter. 

Or the silent killer we breath in. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 23 August, 20232 yr by toot

26 minutes ago, toot said:

In case that is missed above.

Not all have the ability to CCS / DC rapid charge, like the Renault Zoe,s still being given to people for work or bought that only charge AC 22 kW.

Thanks for correction, the French always has to be special. I thought Zoe made CCS standard in their 2022 refresh, I was mistaken, it is still an optional extra 🤯

 

All EV except quad-bike, a few low end cars have CCS rapid charging as standard.

Looks like the Dacia Spring also won't have CCS as standard:  https://www.myevreview.com/tech-specs/dacia/spring/electric-45

 

Or All EV except quad-bike have rapid charging capability if spec'd.

 

Personally, I hate poverty spec cars......

Well that is all that NHS / Social Work and other employees have got in the way of fleet cars and that is OK if there are chargers for them at work and enough places to park, and someone to get them charged for the next driver.

 

Cars with steel wheels and poverty spec were and are often all that employees get, even if they actually cost more due to being a lack of demand for them when they go back into the motor trade. 

34 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

The statement is correct for vast majority of cars being produced because vast majority of cars are being used. You are using an extreme use case just for argument sake.

Not at all, there literally many thousands of cars all over the country that have been purchased solely for the purpose of popping to the shops, keeping contact with elderly local relatives etc because local transport is not suitable for them and that can be from a mobility view point, personal safety concerns etc and may only being doing 20 or so miles a week and I see reports claiming that EVs need to be driven 50,000+ miles before they can begin to be greener overall then a petrol engine in terms of CO2 which is what net-zero is all about, and diesel engines, particularly I'm given to understand from Euro 6 onwards produce even less CO2 than their petrol counterparts, in which case it could be greener with diesel.

 

45 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

The National Grid ESO (second link in my earlier post) is not a power company. They don't sell energy. They are responsible for ensure smooth operation of the electrical grid.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-policy-and-regulation/policy-and-regulatory-programmes/electricity-system-operator-eso-regulation

 

Still have vested interests.

 

@Graham Butchercan we get another list of these reports you have read.

Is this the American Cars with Electricity produced from coal. or Oil from Coal Sands or the UK / England / National grid Oil / Gas / Nuclear and renewable generated electricity. 

 

All those £0 / £30 VED vehicles were bought at the last scrappage scheme. some city cars / small capacity diesels, 

some long since scrapped or should be.

But it boosted the Motor Trade and took in less money to the treasury in taxes but never reduced emissions really. 

But what could go wrong with people buying a small capacity diesel to do a few miles to the shops and back?

 

Or a big car to use as a daily to maybe take the grand children out once in a blue moon, or to do 450 miles a few times a year.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 23 August, 20232 yr by toot

3 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Not at all, there literally many thousands of cars all over the country that have been purchased solely for the purpose of popping to the shops, keeping contact with elderly local relatives etc because local transport is not suitable for them and that can be from a mobility view point, personal safety concerns etc and may only being doing 20 or so miles a week and I see reports claiming that EVs need to be driven 50,000+ miles before they can begin to be greener overall then a petrol engine in terms of CO2 which is what net-zero is all about, and diesel engines, particularly I'm given to understand from Euro 6 onwards produce even less CO2 than their petrol counterparts, in which case it could be greener with diesel.

First, thousands of cars out of how many sold each year? Over 1.6 million car registered a year. Is 0.25% of statical importance?

 

Second, break even point varies depend on energy source and size of battery. Of course getting those use-cases 100 kWh battery EV's will never see net zero. 20 miles a week is just over 1000 miles a year. Even a first-gen 20 kWh Zoe/Leaf will be more than plenty. For those use cases, the Citroen Ami is the perfect car.

 

 

I know you will dismiss the following as "vested interest" or "paid by manufacturers". But I believe Union of Concerned Scientists to be genuine, considering their origin:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Concerned_Scientists

 

https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/driving-cleaner

 

https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/ev-fossil-cars-climate

 

5 hours ago, toot said:

What reluctance?

People are converting cars professionally & just as amateurs and insuring them now.

As people do with ICE vehicles which have engine numbers and there are rules on what class of insurance write off can or can not have parts used.

Many never report an accident or a rebuild / repair of a vehicle.

 

I expect the Insurers might want to be acting with some degree of corporate responsibility and the UK Government & agencies DfT & DVSA

.

There are so many electrified vehicles around now and ones over a decade getting battery repairs, or replacements or just the rusty car welded and pretty much rebuilt.

Maybe they will be more diligent than they are now with vehicle they sell that then are back on the roads with much of an inspection in lots of cases 

and maybe by not very qualified people.

 

The techs / companies dealing with battery replacements & repairs seem pretty few and far between and knowledgeable but there will be cowboys as in every business or trade.

 

Plenty are doing home conversions and might not even have an inspection & certification which is needed when installing a LPG system to an ICE.

 

 

Hmm, not to sure about them just being converted and getting them insured without some sort of certification process before they will insure them, this is all new uncharted waters and perhaps there is somebody on the forum who is in insurance and could give us an opinion on that. I know every time I get insurance on my car, they always ask about any changes that might have been made to the car that were not as per original specification, even down to changing out the wheels for ones that were not the same as originally supplied. When that nice, thoughtful and careful other driver wrote my car off and I went to make a claim, that question was asked once again. I'm guessing that if you were to so no, and they did subsequently find out that I had swapped the wheels, or fitted a larger engine, had the ECU remapped to give more performance, that they use that to disqualify the claim or at least modify and settlement downwards because the car was not the way it was declared when they quoted the premium. 

Edited 23 August, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

4 hours ago, toot said:

@Graham Butchercan we get another list of these reports you have read.

Is this the American Cars with Electricity produced from coal. or Oil from Coal Sands or the UK / England / National grid Oil / Gas / Nuclear and renewable generated electricity. 

 

All those £0 / £30 VED vehicles were bought at the last scrappage scheme. some city cars / small capacity diesels, 

some long since scrapped or should be.

But it boosted the Motor Trade and took in less money to the treasury in taxes but never reduced emissions really. 

But what could go wrong with people buying a small capacity diesel to do a few miles to the shops and back?

 

Or a big car to use as a daily to maybe take the grand children out once in a blue moon, or to do 450 miles a few times a year.

 

 

 

 

 

I'll try and find them again when I have more time to spare, but I subscribe to Stuart Fillingham channel, Geoff buys cars and also Petrol Ped along with a host of others including Electric Classic Cars and in the video below Moggy sets out to prove that electric cars bursting into fire is a myth and he tried to show that a Lithium Ion cell, a 18650 (which Tesla use 7104 of these in Model 3 battery pack) and you will see that he dons all the safety gear just in case he was able to get the 18650 to go into a thermal runaway by smashing it with a club hammer while the cell was laying on its side. He failed and claimed that he had proved it was a myth. Such information is both misleading and also dangerous, and clearly showed that he was out of his depth with regard to the process of cells becoming unstable.

 

To create an internal short circuit the cell plates, anode and cathode must be brought into contact with each other and the best way of doing that is to drive a metal object into and penetrate the cell sideways so the metal object punches through both electrodes and the separator as demonstrated in one of the other videos I have already posted links to. By Moggy bashing the hell of the 18650 cell like he does, he is really only deforming the cell and therefore not rupturing the electrodes or the separator so, not causing the desired short circuit internally. Also a flat 18650 is going to be considerably less dangerous than a fully charged one, again that is shown in the video I mentioned above.

 

YouTube channels can be very informative and entertaining, but they can also be misleading and lull people into a false sense of security, and they then think that is safe and that they themselves are now knowledgable in these things because of what they have seen.

 

I said before, it is not until you learn something that you truly understand just how little you do know and sadly sometimes that manifests itself by someone having an accident because they thought something was safe when it wasn't because they did not fully understand it in the first instance and give it enough respect. The next time, if they are lucky enough to be given a 2nd chance, they will. How many people involved in this thread are fully qualified electrical engineers (and we are talking electrics here) and understand just how an EV works or even understands the basics of Ohms Law.

 

And now a video that actually shows the construction of a 18650 cell and there is clearly shows why Moggy in his video was not able to get a reaction with the hammer as the separator was still doing its job of keeping the anode and cathode apart from each other.

A clear example of how a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Edited 24 August, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

@Graham ButcherI did not mean another list about fires.

We have pages of fires.  

It is you Report on the 50,000 + mile thing before greener.  

Really it matters not because we are where we are and there are some that can not see the wood for the trees.

 

Idiots that talk about not towing EV,s (ike Brain of Britain in the first video after your post) because they generate electricity as the wheels turns seem to not be aware that would be awd EV,s as FWD or Rear Wheel drive EV,s get towed by the RAC, AA or others using a dolly with the drive wheels on it. 

 

Simple details like that are what goes right over some peoples heads. 

How many people can not use their common sense or pay attention to details and facts and try to get to know about the subject?

 

PS

Typing while charging for free.

No idea what the source of the electricity is but there is a storage battery and solar panels on the roof and the battery at the hub might be full or taking in off peak electricity.

There are  council mini busses and vans charging and cars left overnight on AC chargers and i am the only one on a rapid charger. 

Lots of chargers, lots of charging and if one vehicle goes up it will be a sight to see. 

 

Edited 24 August, 20232 yr by toot

23 hours ago, wyx087 said:

  

So after finding all that evidence, are EV fire news/numbers suppressed or not? 

 

 

WRT battery replacement cost, this very early Model S owner after 8.5 years 160k miles, says his out of warranty refurbished battery replacement cost done by Tesla was £10k, ignoring the obvious maths error in the video. (£8100 + £1800 = £8900??) 

Looking on Autotrader, the car is worth about £30-35k. But his now has 4 more years of battery warranty. So worth the repair cost? 

 

 

Out of interest, how much would an engine rebuild or refurbished engine replacement cost at main dealer? 

diesel run well past 150k and 8 years without a rebuild… and often a new engine wouldn’t cost 10k, never mind a rebuild. Fuel tank isn’t that expensive either. It’s usually been other things that make them cost prohibitive to repair between 15/20 years

 

Whilst I like the EV, if 160k is normal before it is expected a 10k battery refurb is needed that would put me off.

 

10k/8years = 1.25k per year @1.50/L and 11MPL is just over 9000 miles a year in fuel. Uk average is now around 8k miles per year.

4 hours ago, toot said:

Typing while charging for free.

At half past 3 in the middle of the night. Man, you are dedicated. 

For your info, if you are ever nearby to open-to-all supercharger, worth checking. I've seen some Tesla superchargers have off-peak price of 21p at 0-4am. Price is calculated at the time you plug it in (eg. plug in at 3:59 and get off peak price). 

 

 

Yesterday I tried to charge on a really really old CYC post, which are managed by BP Pulse but fallen into disrepair and it is in an underground car park that can't authenticate with Pulse server (hence I can get free charging). I plugged in at above 40% in my Leaf, when I unplug the car was at 33% and charge point said no power delivered 😡 Got home scanned for error and had a few in the HVAC module. I had to clear the error code for it to charge. 

 

Another quirk of first-gen legacy auto maker EV, if it had actual useful information display (charging amp, voltage, power, etc) I could have known there's problem and won't left it plugged in self-consuming power for its electronics. I've had different error code in similar module, "unstable input voltage" error on the Tesla at home as solar production swings wildly on a windy day whilst a cooking appliance uses PWM to control its power draw. Tesla didn't need any programming dongle to clear the code, it has a notification system like phones and simply unplug and plug it back in to clear that error. 

 

1 minute ago, cheezemonkhai said:

diesel run well past 150k and 8 years without a rebuild… and often a new engine wouldn’t cost 10k, never mind a rebuild. Fuel tank isn’t that expensive either. It’s usually been other things that make them cost prohibitive to repair between 15/20 years

 

Whilst I like the EV, if 160k is normal before it is expected a 10k battery refurb is needed that would put me off.

 

10k/8years = 1.25k per year @1.50/L and 11MPL is just over 9000 miles a year in fuel. Uk average is now around 8k miles per year.

There's no evidence to suggest this failure is anywhere near normal and need to be calculated as running cost. The video said it's due to a single module discharging faster than rest, suggesting manufacturing defect that surfaced as the battery ages. I've seen Leaf 40 pack with similar defect on SpeakEV, that should be under warranty. 

 

There are a few high mileage (but not old age) examples out there: 

https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/  <- reason for this 300k mile replacement is similar 

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/this-2018-tesla-model-3-passed-the-300000-mile-mark-here-s-what-you-need-to-know-194534.html

The replacement cost lines up with this article: 

https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last/

 

@wyx087Not dedicated, i was travelling and getting 30 minutes charge before doing another 90 mile and charging again which i did and now at 98% and ready for going where i am going.

That is what travelling in an EV with a small range is about and actually going places away from home.

 

I am not often near Tesla superchargers other than were there are CPS chargers so unless i am no point to me. Sometime i might have to  use Aviemore,

Tomorrow i do need charging around Aberdeen  in the morning and then north & have trying to see what has been reported as faulty / out of order and i know i am just going to pay 70 pence a kWh or more and not go out of my way.  

 

**** Found a MGF forecourt with 5 rapids. 79 pence a kWh.  If needs must i will use.****

 

PS

All seasons going on in the morning before i head off tomorrow so i will see if any adverse affect on range.

Last night it was pithing down and no traffic about other than lots of HGV,s ferry bound & it was nice to get sitting off the tail of one.

 

PPS

The charger at the Stabucks i have used North of Aberdeen is 70 pence a kWh but great for location and just getting on my way. 

 

.......................

http://evyve.co.uk

There is one of these Evyve chargers near Aberdeen Airport which could suit me when in a hurry and i can not mess about with Aberdeen / Aberdeenshire Council chargers / hubs.

Another in Dundee, but then no shortage of chargers there.  & near the Porsche dealership / charger & Park and Ride,  Tesla superchargers and new improved hub Broxden Perth.  Taking for ever to complete. 

 

 

 

 

Edited 24 August, 20232 yr by toot

17 hours ago, Crasher said:

 

What is the VIN? Make sure it has a brand new head or the resurfaced head has been HIP treated as if not, it won't last two years.

I don't need an engine, I'm just getting a price for the benefit of this discussion with regard to engine cost v battery cost. 

12 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Thanks for correction, the French always has to be special. I thought Zoe made CCS standard in their 2022 refresh, I was mistaken, it is still an optional extra 🤯

 

All EV except quad-bike, a few low end cars have CCS rapid charging as standard.

Looks like the Dacia Spring also won't have CCS as standard:  https://www.myevreview.com/tech-specs/dacia/spring/electric-45

 

Or All EV except quad-bike have rapid charging capability if spec'd.

 

Personally, I hate poverty spec cars......

Well for years that was all I could get as a company car user until I gained seniority status and even more so today is all that many people can afford with wages being effectively going in reverse over the years in many sectors of the work force. Think your self lucky that either can afford a better class of car or have an employer who thinks you deserve a better car, there are many people right now who would love something better but can't.

7 hours ago, toot said:

@Graham ButcherI did not mean another list about fires.

We have pages of fires.  

It is you Report on the 50,000 + mile thing before greener.  

Really it matters not because we are where we are and there are some that can not see the wood for the trees.

 

Idiots that talk about not towing EV,s (ike Brain of Britain in the first video after your post) because they generate electricity as the wheels turns seem to not be aware that would be awd EV,s as FWD or Rear Wheel drive EV,s get towed by the RAC, AA or others using a dolly with the drive wheels on it. 

 

Simple details like that are what goes right over some peoples heads. 

How many people can not use their common sense or pay attention to details and facts and try to get to know about the subject?

 

PS

Typing while charging for free.

No idea what the source of the electricity is but there is a storage battery and solar panels on the roof and the battery at the hub might be full or taking in off peak electricity.

There are  council mini busses and vans charging and cars left overnight on AC chargers and i am the only one on a rapid charger. 

Lots of chargers, lots of charging and if one vehicle goes up it will be a sight to see. 

 

Yes, I understand you but I'll have to try and dig some references out that help in that regard. I mentioned the fire aspect with the Electric Classic Cars attempt at dispelling the myth as an example of how people don't seem able to us common sense and how simple facts simply can go over peoples heads because they have already brought into the philosophy and can't see the wood for the .trees. Sometimes people need to stop taking things that they are told at face value and examine things more, look under the stone, look beyond the obvious to make sure there is not a giant Gotcha waiting just around the corner. Pluralistic ignorance may account for some of it, rather like the Emperors New Clothes.

3 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

diesel run well past 150k and 8 years without a rebuild… and often a new engine wouldn’t cost 10k, never mind a rebuild. Fuel tank isn’t that expensive either. It’s usually been other things that make them cost prohibitive to repair between 15/20 years

 

Whilst I like the EV, if 160k is normal before it is expected a 10k battery refurb is needed that would put me off.

 

10k/8years = 1.25k per year @1.50/L and 11MPL is just over 9000 miles a year in fuel. Uk average is now around 8k miles per year.

Agree, in my experience it usually tends to be structural damage that sees cars being confined to the scrapyard even years after they ceased production, if the actual structure is good, the mechanicals can be shot to hell, but there is usually enough cars at the scrapyards that can donate their mechanicals to make a good car again. There are some exceptions, like Jenson Interceptors, Jag E types, early Minis etc where there is enough will power among a few individuals to set up a business dedicated to keeping these classics going even down to them buying the original machines and jigs from the factory to reproduce all the panels and structural parts even to be able to fabricate a complete new shell if required. 

 

Jensen | Martin Robey

4 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I don't need an engine, I'm just getting a price for the benefit of this discussion with regard to engine cost v battery cost. 

 

I see... The commonly used CRLB as an example is £6525.60 genuine VAG inc VAT and comes with new injectors and glow plugs.

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

I mentioned the fire aspect with the Electric Classic Cars attempt at dispelling the myth as an example of how people don't seem able to us common sense and how simple facts simply can go over peoples heads because they have already brought into the philosophy and can't see the wood for the .trees. Sometimes people need to stop taking things that they are told at face value and examine things more, look under the stone, look beyond the obvious to make sure there is not a giant Gotcha waiting just around the corner.

 

Indeed, you are very good at "looking under the stone" for reports that doesn't support your view point, it's okay, a single sentence will do them justice:

17 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Well the first 2 are more to do with electrical engineering than motor industry therefore increased work for their members building the required infrastructure

17 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Think about it, Power companies, of course they have a vested interest, they want to sell you their power don't they?

22 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Those kinds of analysis are being done largely by people who have vested interests one way or the other, so it is not possible to tell their accuracy

Am I right in summarising that you don't trust: motor industry, shipping industry, news reporting, electrical engineers, university papers, politicians, power companies, and grid operators.

 

 

This is a fun one, let's just move the goal post because my reply didn't support your view point:

21 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

The problem is still higher no matter which way it is dressed up, Telslas are still seen as premium brands and it is the mass market cars like the Golf that most people can hope of affording

17 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yeah, unfortunately like you said once before a Golf is a ICE car firstly that has been modified to become EV, and is seen as a premium brand, this will make it a fairly expensive car

So is the Golf a mass market car that most people can afford, or a fairly expensive premium brand car that is difficult for people to afford?

 

I'm eagerly awaiting you to "dig some references out" regarding this reality you claim.

On 23/08/2023 at 13:12, Graham Butcher said:

The only way you could sure of that is if you had your one wind or solar generator and used it solely for recharging your car.  You might think that you're doing the planet a good deed by running a EV, but you might not in reality, all you can safely say with 100% certainty is that you can drive in a city or other densely populated area and not be generating any tailpipe emissions because you don't have a tailpipe.

 

Is it that same Volvo report used by Mr Beans to claim ICE is greener than BEV's. Despite the problems in the Volvo report had been repeatedly pointed out:

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/21/unpacking-the-electric-cars-arent-as-green-as-you-think-claims/

https://insideevs.com/news/458458/legacy-automakers-backed-study-against-evs-debunked/

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/08/fact-check-why-rowan-atkinson-is-wrong-about-electric-vehicles

Or Astongate:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2021/11/20/dont-fall-for-the-myth-that-internal-combustion-cars-are-greener-than-batteries-over-their-lifetheyre-not/

https://www.irishevs.com/understanding-astongate

https://www.transportenvironment.org/discover/laggard-carmakers-caught-out-trying-pass-anti-ev-research-independent/

 

I think of all the issues that one might have with EVs, the risk of them catching fire should be low on the list.

If you are concerned about rechargeable batteries catching fire, you might consider how many cheap rechargeable devices you have knocking about at home. How sure are you that one of those isn't suddenly going to let go in the middle of the night and start a house fire you might find difficult to extinguish?

I'm warming to the idea of an EV. I could live without the EV evangelism, but I understand the urge to share a positive experience and the frustration towards nay-sayers.

Maybe EV fires will become a problem, but right now, I think it's too early to regard them as a recognisable threat.

Very few consumer items are a threat when new, what I know will be a problem issue when EV’s are a decade old and being patched up in time honoured fashion is cheap working practices and these will kill people.

18 minutes ago, Crasher said:

Very few consumer items are a threat when new, what I know will be a problem issue when EV’s are a decade old and being patched up in time honoured fashion is cheap working practices and these will kill people.

You do get problems with some new items, remember the Galaxy notes catching fire a few years ago? Best not to get to complacent and stay safe. 

 

 

 

 

I enjoyed those, that is exactly how I intend to have my first EV.

Enjoy looking at modding old EV's?

 

It's guys like this that's making it possible.

 

Old Leaf battery? No problem, he's using Leaf battery as home battery with some very simple wiring:

 

Before you say fire risk, the BMS are in the packs, BMS controls everything to do with pack safety. He's only sending Chademo or translate CAN bus commands to achieve his goal.

 

 

A trait of the EVs being launch each year, nd comparing their price and range comparatively year after year, and especially TESLA who drive the price and make what is destined to be the world's best selling model of a car ie the Model Y, appears to be getting incrementally better by several percent each year ie cheaper but better range performance. 

 

The TESLA model 3, launched 5 years ago now, was a benchmark and cost to consumers in some markets now dropped below £25k, when government (US etc) subsidies applied.

New "Highland" model is projected to be even cheaper in real terms as it benefits from cheaper battery pack that have higher energy density plus over 20 other major technical features.  Hopefully price of model 3 will now fall below £40K, current cheapest new one is...... £40.5K https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/m3/order/LRW3228_f2b9e0c0f820c726a3da366f161b6647?titleStatus=new&redirect=no#overview

TESLA state and show working how running an EV like the model 3 costs hundred of pounds less per month, certainly something I am seeing myself in both fuelling and servicing costs. 

Days, in more accurately a few years, left for ICE cars as mainstream transport on our roads, some will survive as relics for auto shows but in terms on mile per mile cost, a contest being lost by ICE cars hand over fist to EVS it is becoming clear. 

 

e