I never referred to Tesla inventory model because it's like looking for cars on the dealership lot, there ought to be comparable but varied and difficult to compare discount. 

 

By 2025 when EV's will be subject to VED and expensive car tax, it is a sure bet that Model 3 will drop below £40k. It is highly probable it'll be £38.8k so you can buy with a colour/wheel/interior of your choice. On Tesla, everything else come as standard, same on every trim: Heated everything, pano roof, elec boot, ACC and lane centering, etc. Don't need to add cost for options list. 

 

Is £40k expensive for a brand new car? Government have been exercising fiscal drag, £40k in 2017 is £50k in July 2023 according to BoE.  £31.6k in 2017 is £40k these days. I remember looking at 3 series in 2016, IIRC starting from ~£30k.  (decided on a second hand Octy to tide me over to full EV) 

Nowadays, 3 series start from £39.6k before extensive options list, smaller Golf GTI (far from highest trim) start £39k before options, and larger Superb sportline (still not highest trim) start just under £39k. 

£40k cars these days are actually £30k cars 6 years ago, Everything has gotten more expensive...... except for Tesla's 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

I never referred to Tesla inventory model because it's like looking for cars on the dealership lot, there ought to be comparable but varied and difficult to compare discount. 

 

By 2025 when EV's will be subject to VED and expensive car tax, it is a sure bet that Model 3 will drop below £40k. It is highly probable it'll be £38.8k so you can buy with a colour/wheel/interior of your choice. On Tesla, everything else come as standard, same on every trim: Heated everything, pano roof, elec boot, ACC and lane centering, etc. Don't need to add cost for options list. 

 

Is £40k expensive for a brand new car? Government have been exercising fiscal drag, £40k in 2017 is £50k in July 2023 according to BoE.  £31.6k in 2017 is £40k these days. I remember looking at 3 series in 2016, IIRC starting from ~£30k.  (decided on a second hand Octy to tide me over to full EV) 

Nowadays, 3 series start from £39.6k before extensive options list, smaller Golf GTI (far from highest trim) start £39k before options, and larger Superb sportline (still not highest trim) start just under £39k. 

£40k cars these days are actually £30k cars 6 years ago, Everything has gotten more expensive...... except for Tesla's 

 

Rather than Sales price myself, like probably hundreds of thousands of UK employees, are looking at the monthly payments through a salary sacrifice scheme.  We are suppose to be engaging with the Octopus salary sacrifice scheme, who can apparently put through second hand cars through the scheme now which is much under reported as a major change, chance of getting a really tidy Model S, 100 battery or maybe a 90, would be my ideal ride, low mileage although insane mileage ones, 100k, 150k, still seem to be like almost new.

 

How can any humdrum car company like VW, BMW, Mercedes compete with a company that makes space rockets that re-land back to earth.

And in all this most humans are not aware that the TESLA car company is just the magicians distraction to TESLA coming in and taking over electricity supply to both houses and cars.

  

Tesla's may be the exception here, but surely that is just another good example of price gouging, everybody is at it. Same with the ULEZ expansion in London, although my car is already complaint so does not affect me (currently), but I'm still against it, even with the City Hall scrappage scheme there are literally thousands of families who are faced with a real problem. They are unable to really afford the £12.50 a day to use their cars, and they also do not even earn enough or have any savings to scrap together the balance to purchase a replacement car, even with the support from City Hall. Equally, they cannot afford to move out of the zone into surrounding areas and look for employment away from the ULEZ zone.

 

One of my sons works in the retail sector which during the Pandemic he was classified as one of the Key Workers that helped keep the country going during all the lockdowns and yet most people in that industry are not even on proper regular hours contracts but we all rely on people like him. He has different shifts and some weeks he may only have 2 or 3 days work, others maybe 4 or 5, there is nothing that he could rely on to go and get a loan against. How are people like him going to be able to survive, its one thing to say that Tesla's are getting cheaper while others are getting more expensive but is cold comfort to these poor folk who cannot even see a way to even dream about owning one.

 

Next time you go shopping, observe the growing numbers of self-serve tills at the supermarkets, even these low paid, low security jobs are being phased out we are heading into some very uncertain times.

1 minute ago, Graham Butcher said:

Tesla's may be the exception here, but surely that is just another good example of price gouging, everybody is at it. Same with the ULEZ expansion in London, although my car is already complaint so does not affect me (currently), but I'm still against it, even with the City Hall scrappage scheme there are literally thousands of families who are faced with a real problem. They are unable to really afford the £12.50 a day to use their cars, and they also do not even earn enough or have any savings to scrap together the balance to purchase a replacement car, even with the support from City Hall. Equally, they cannot afford to move out of the zone into surrounding areas and look for employment away from the ULEZ zone.

 

One of my sons works in the retail sector which during the Pandemic he was classified as one of the Key Workers that helped keep the country going during all the lockdowns and yet most people in that industry are not even on proper regular hours contracts but we all rely on people like him. He has different shifts and some weeks he may only have 2 or 3 days work, others maybe 4 or 5, there is nothing that he could rely on to go and get a loan against. How are people like him going to be able to survive, its one thing to say that Tesla's are getting cheaper while others are getting more expensive but is cold comfort to these poor folk who cannot even see a way to even dream about owning one.

 

Next time you go shopping, observe the growing numbers of self-serve tills at the supermarkets, even these low paid, low security jobs are being phased out we are heading into some very uncertain times.

 

TESLA is so far ahead in terms of production technology, where they have their factories ie the Shanghai mega factory, as well as Berlin and US.  It is not price gauging but rather TESLA reducing the price becuase they can.  The still make a profit, yes they see other car manufacturers are making EVs at a loss and TESLA just keep on forging ahead until the other car companies wither and die.  It is not a evil plan just capitalism and the builder of a better mouse trap prevails.

 

Your leap to talking about London ULEZ I find the "logic" not logical.  There are tens of thousands of (petrol) cars for £1k or £2k never mind £3,£4,£5k that are stacked on SE England 

car lots. A petrol of 20 years ago is probably London ULEZ Euro 4 compliant.  My London (Heathrow) office is in the ULEZ zone so the 100 or so staff there have the issues and many are not massively paid and hopefully they all find away to comply.  The ULEZ zone is one tool that helps tackle the London pollution which major expert bodies have said shortens the lives of 10,000 Londoners, and visitors (?) each year.  Worth a bit of car swapping I reckon.  People in the countryside can run the dirty diesels which is exactly where diesels are suited to and not in an urban environment in my view.

 

The UK has an acute problem with a minimum wage which is below liveable, especially in London.  That is what we get with a UK government of the current persuasion. As they tough it out.  Looks likely to change in about a year and we can see how they perform but they will be inheriting three times the debt that the Cons did in 2010 so a pickle of giga size.

 

There are over 4000 cars that are ULEZ compliant, under £3000, within 50 miles of St Paul's:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?advertising-location=at_cars&fuel-type=Petrol&fuel-type=Petrol Plug-in Hybrid&fuel-type=Petrol Hybrid&include-delivery-option=on&make=&postcode=EC4M 8AD&price-to=3000&radius=50&sort=price-asc&year-from=2006

Call me out of touch, but do people really don't have savings? The very minimum level of financial safety net?

 

20 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Next time you go shopping, observe the growing numbers of self-serve tills at the supermarkets, even these low paid, low security jobs are being phased out we are heading into some very uncertain times.

These jobs are ripe for tech disruption. Since late 90's, it would be ...... not sure the PC word....... for parents to not guide their kids' vision away from jobs that are to be disrupted. In the coming decade, generative AI will further disrupt many more jobs. It's all normal part of ever changing world.

 

 

44 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

TESLA is so far ahead in terms of production technology, where they have their factories ie the Shanghai mega factory, as well as Berlin and US.  It is not price gauging but rather TESLA reducing the price becuase they can.  The still make a profit, yes they see other car manufacturers are making EVs at a loss and TESLA just keep on forging ahead until the other car companies wither and die.  It is not a evil plan just capitalism and the builder of a better mouse trap prevails.

 

Your leap to talking about London ULEZ I find the "logic" not logical.  There are tens of thousands of (petrol) cars for £1k or £2k never mind £3,£4,£5k that are stacked on SE England 

car lots. A petrol of 20 years ago is probably London ULEZ Euro 4 compliant.  My London (Heathrow) office is in the ULEZ zone so the 100 or so staff there have the issues and many are not massively paid and hopefully they all find away to comply.  The ULEZ zone is one tool that helps tackle the London pollution which major expert bodies have said shortens the lives of 10,000 Londoners, and visitors (?) each year.  Worth a bit of car swapping I reckon.  People in the countryside can run the dirty diesels which is exactly where diesels are suited to and not in an urban environment in my view.

 

The UK has an acute problem with a minimum wage which is below liveable, especially in London.  That is what we get with a UK government of the current persuasion. As they tough it out.  Looks likely to change in about a year and we can see how they perform but they will be inheriting three times the debt that the Cons did in 2010 so a pickle of giga size.

 

As I understand it, there is a grant of up to £2,000 to Londoners to assist in them getting a new car. So do you know how this scheme works? I read that businesses can get up to £7,000 to buy a new EV van to replace an old non-compliant van. So just how does this scheme work, I would expect that you have to, first, secure the replacement vehicle before applying for the grant, otherwise it would be wide open to abuse. So that there, to me, suggests that the applicant need to be able to afford the replacement vehicle, either for cash or able to secure a loan in the first instance, if so that there is a major stumbling block. Secondly, are able to go and buy an existing 2nd hand vehicle and still get the grant? Thirdly, if you can use the grant to assist with the purchase of a 2nd hand compliant vehicle, will you be able to get the full grant amount or a percentage of it?

 

I have read the latest statement about these grants, it does not make it plain nor does it provide any examples of how it works. It also only makes the grant available to Londoners, what those people who are living within easy reach of London and have to drive in each day for work, there seems to be zero assistance for those people. In some cases it would mean those living in certain sections of a road may get the grant, but those on the opposite side for example can't and yet both work in London and have to drive in daily because public transport does not work for them i.e, they may work in public transport, but they have to travel when public transport is not available at those times.

 

You also mention 10,000 lives are shortened by the poor air, and yet City Hall claim only 4,000 lives are affected, so which it. Personally, I think that even 4,000 is stretching the point.

 

Edited 25 August, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

43 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

There are over 4000 cars that are ULEZ compliant, under £3000, within 50 miles of St Paul's:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?advertising-location=at_cars&fuel-type=Petrol&fuel-type=Petrol Plug-in Hybrid&fuel-type=Petrol Hybrid&include-delivery-option=on&make=&postcode=EC4M 8AD&price-to=3000&radius=50&sort=price-asc&year-from=2006

Call me out of touch, but do people really don't have savings? The very minimum level of financial safety net?

 

These jobs are ripe for tech disruption. Since late 90's, it would be ...... not sure the PC word....... for parents to not guide their kids' vision away from jobs that are to be disrupted. In the coming decade, generative AI will further disrupt many more jobs. It's all normal part of ever changing world.

 

 

Easier said than done I'm afraid, sometimes those are the only jobs that are available when employers want people with previous experience or there are simply heaps of graduates who are unable to find jobs in their chosen profession, actually stacking shelves in supermarkets. Sometimes, people, however well-intentioned, particularly those in positions of power, just need to stop and think things through, and maybe better still people in those positions need to have experienced what it is like for those people who are struggling. Talking is cheap and easy to do, but actions are not.

Edited 25 August, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Call me out of touch, but do people really don't have savings?

 

You are out of touch!

 

Happy to oblige.

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

As I understand it, there is a grant of up to £2,000 to Londoners to assist in them getting a new car. So do you know how this scheme works? I read that businesses can get up to £7,000 to buy a new EV van to replace an old non-compliant van. So just how does this scheme work, I would expect that you have to, first, secure the replacement vehicle before applying for the grant, otherwise it would be wide open to abuse. So that there, to me, suggests that the applicant need to be able to afford the replacement vehicle, either for cash or able to secure a loan in the first instance, if so that there is a major stumbling block. Secondly, are able to go and buy an existing 2nd hand vehicle and still get the grant? Thirdly, if you can use the grant to assist with the purchase of a 2nd hand compliant vehicle, will you be able to get the full grant amount or a percentage of it?

All the details are here. Nowhere mentions needing to have secured purchase/buying of car.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/scrappage-schemes

On top of scrappage scheme, there are companies offering other transport related discounts:

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/ulez-support-offers

Interesting ones are micro-mobility such as Lime scooter rental. Cars just doesn't work in cities.

 

For those living outside, if they really cannot use public transport (eg. need huge wheelchair), there is a grace period for wheelchair vehicles and a few others.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/discounts-and-exemptions#on-this-page-0

 

We really need to re-think mobility and embrace idea of fitting vehicle with use-case:

 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Call me out of touch, but do people really don't have savings? The very minimum level of financial safety net?

Seriously? With rising poverty in the country, real world wage erosion, record numbers reliant on food banks, people working full time reliant on food banks and benefits you question how people do not have savings?? Many people who did have savings have spent their 'minimum safety net' a long time ago. Those of us able to save and pay our way are in a position many, many hard working people are not.

Definitely out of touch.

35 minutes ago, Luckypants said:

Seriously? With rising poverty in the country, real world wage erosion, record numbers reliant on food banks, people working full time reliant on food banks and benefits you question how people do not have savings?? Many people who did have savings have spent their 'minimum safety net' a long time ago. Those of us able to save and pay our way are in a position many, many hard working people are not.

Definitely out of touch.

My point entirely, people who are in a privileged position just don't get how lucky they are and certainly cannot think outside their box, which is one of the reason why I think that EV cars may not be the magic bullet that some people seem to think they are and also the same with all the low emission zones being setup across the country, some people may actually end up paying multiple charges.

 

Having already stated that the EV situation is unlikely to affect me in my lifetime and secondly, my car already complies with most of LEZ's so once does not really affect me. But having been in a lower income bracket all my life, never been away for a holiday in the UK let alone flown or cruised for a holiday, simply because I could not afford to. I have never been a drinker, a gambler or a smoker, so no money has been wasted on those. I also was never able to get onto the property ladder, so I have been a social housing tenant all of my life so far. My Father died many years ago and had been a labourer all his life so had zero savings and no life insurance, so I became the only bread winner in the family, so I had to support myself and my Mother. I can see just how hard if not impossible it could be loads of families.

 

My storey is far from unique, and yet we have leaders of the country who are billionaires and some are millionaires and have zero idea of what it is like for people in similar positions. They like many here on this forum lack the ability to see outside their circle/box

 

If we could level the field a bit more, then we could embrace the forth coming changes more equally a society, rather than as winners and losers., @Luckypants I applaud for having the ability to understand that many will be far worse off.

Edited 25 August, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

All the details are here. Nowhere mentions needing to have secured purchase/buying of car.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/scrappage-schemes

On top of scrappage scheme, there are companies offering other transport related discounts:

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/ulez-support-offers

Interesting ones are micro-mobility such as Lime scooter rental. Cars just doesn't work in cities.

 

For those living outside, if they really cannot use public transport (eg. need huge wheelchair), there is a grace period for wheelchair vehicles and a few others.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/discounts-and-exemptions#on-this-page-0

 

We really need to re-think mobility and embrace idea of fitting vehicle with use-case:

 

 

Common misunderstanding that it is against the purchase of another car. 

No it is just to scrap the old polluting car. Spend the money on another car or on public transport, on Ubers (which it aims to be zero emission in 16 months time. 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/08/uber-aims-for-greener-trips-and-to-expand-london-electric-vehicle-fleet  

 

Generous offer in my view and plenty of options for this bung of tax payers money.

 

Just a quick comment on this - yes some people are MASSIVELY out of touch with how a large number of people in this country live and survive from day to day and have very little in the way of a safety net or savings!  Just look at numbers of people in the various bands in IMD mapping.

 

Index of Multiple Deprivation (IMD) | CDRC Data

 

The English Indices of Deprivation 2019 (publishing.service.gov.uk)

 

 

Also - Octopus Salary Sacrifice...   a Tesla Model 3 is FROM £691 PER MONTH with an upfront payment of £6.2k on a personal plan. and from £632 for business users.  That equates to £7.5k to £8.3k per year just for a car.

 

Even their cheapest deal is from £331 a month for an Ora Funky Cat with an upfront payment of £3k.

 

Those numbers are simply not affordable for many many people!

5 minutes ago, skomaz said:

Just a quick comment on this - yes some people are MASSIVELY out of touch with how a large number of people in this country live and survive from day to day and have very little in the way of a safety net or savings!  Just look at numbers of people in the various bands in IMD mapping.

 

Index of Multiple Deprivation (IMD) | CDRC Data

 

The English Indices of Deprivation 2019 (publishing.service.gov.uk)

 

 

Also - Octopus Salary Sacrifice...   a Tesla Model 3 is FROM £691 PER MONTH with an upfront payment of £6.2k on a personal plan. and from £632 for business users.  That equates to £7.5k to £8.3k per year just for a car.

 

Even their cheapest deal is from £331 a month for an Ora Funky Cat with an upfront payment of £3k.

 

Those numbers are simply not affordable for many many people!

Thanks for posting this, never realised this info was available, I'm over on the left that chart then, pension only pays £1000 a month and just housing takes £600 a month. 😒

4 minutes ago, skomaz said:

Just a quick comment on this - yes some people are MASSIVELY out of touch with how a large number of people in this country live and survive from day to day and have very little in the way of a safety net or savings!  Just look at numbers of people in the various bands in IMD mapping.

 

Index of Multiple Deprivation (IMD) | CDRC Data

 

The English Indices of Deprivation 2019 (publishing.service.gov.uk)

 

 

Also - Octopus Salary Sacrifice...   a Tesla Model 3 is FROM £691 PER MONTH with an upfront payment of £6.2k on a personal plan. and from £632 for business users.  That equates to £7.5k to £8.3k per year just for a car.

 

Even their cheapest deal is from £331 a month for an Ora Funky Cat with an upfront payment of £3k.

 

Those numbers are simply not affordable for many many people!

 

Is that the pre salary sacrifice number ie one can take 40% off for the tax relief using salary sacrifice Octopus advertise.  I would go for only 3 months pre payment rather than 3 or even only 1 month if possible as it is the monthly payment that is getting the tax relief for full EVs.  £9k car allowance pa is not unusually high car allowance for a national role private sector role I find.

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

If we could level the field a bit more, then we could embrace the forth coming changes more equally a society, rather than as winners and losers.

I'm all for this and I think that climate friendly/green movement is actually the opportunity to move towards more equality.

 

For example, third world country are leap frogging developed country and directly going to renewables, empowering people without needing a continuous payment.

Another example, micro-mobility are much cheaper to buy and own, but able to achieve most tasks.

 

As always, whether people grasp this opportunity..... But as usual, there's always those who resist changes and get left behind.

 

 

 

Back in the real world and back on topic, to drive change, there's only the carrot or the stick. Unfortunately the stick most affects those who are not well off, this problem is entirely manufactured by the ICE car industry: "buy our latest car for less emissions".

EV have the ability to break that cycle, the longer an EV is kept in use, the less per-mile carbon emissions. Other types of emissions (tyre, brake) can be fixed by changing individual components. The price of EV is due to poor supply of cheap second hand cars as supply, another fault of auto industry not investing in EV's in 2000's and not offering enough EV's back in mid 2010's.

The existing centralised energy industry were doing their best to keep the inequality status quo. Renewables, battery and by extension EV's could change that.

 

53 minutes ago, skomaz said:

Just a quick comment on this - yes some people are MASSIVELY out of touch with how a large number of people in this country live and survive from day to day and have very little in the way of a safety net or savings!  Just look at numbers of people in the various bands in IMD mapping.

 

Index of Multiple Deprivation (IMD) | CDRC Data

 

The English Indices of Deprivation 2019 (publishing.service.gov.uk)

 

Also - Octopus Salary Sacrifice...   a Tesla Model 3 is FROM £691 PER MONTH with an upfront payment of £6.2k on a personal plan. and from £632 for business users.  That equates to £7.5k to £8.3k per year just for a car.

Even their cheapest deal is from £331 a month for an Ora Funky Cat with an upfront payment of £3k.

Those numbers are simply not affordable for many many people!

 

I think you need to click across the business slider which shows £507 but this is is for the current Model 3 and the new, and better, Highland Model 3 is anticipated to be cheaper than this.  £691 is the personal cost number and not proper salary sacrifice.  These cars are oft for workers who spend much of their weekly work hours going between offices and clients and the car is just a high spec trade tool and not an indulgence.

 

Those in the top ten percent have every empathy with those in the lower centiles and have been pointing out the actions of the UK government to feather the nests of the top twenty percent or so to the determent of the lower paid and I am constantly amazed on the lack of action from those disadvantaged by their government.  Uk News announces bosses get 16% pay rise, what do lower paid do, very little,  UK government get ride of the extra 1,5% NI, saves me loads, extending the amount one can put in to ones pension from £40k to £60k a year all feathering the nests of te already well off yet what do the UK lower paid do ?  Very little.  Doctors, Nurses, Teachers, Train drivers all do about workers pay erosion over the last 13 years where as bosses of failing companies continue to pay themselves extraordinary amounts for failure.

 

UK citizens should do a lot more active political action if they want to change inequality.  They will get their chance in a matter of months or so.  Being in the bottom centiles is also not a prerequisite to those knowing what is best for them as the vote for BREXIT showed where poor areas were some of the strongest supporters even though it was predicted it would take 5% of GDP and this is what it apparently done as we compare the UK to Ireland.

 

Back to EVs and it is good that those with larger disposal income have early adopted EVs as this is helping with air quality and speeding up the mass adoption which should benefit the larger driving public but we all breath the same air and I fully support the cities that are introducing ULEZs and will be proud on my next journey down to Heathrow and look forward to seeing the signs I will pass saying it is a ULEZ area.  EVs are gresat to drive in traffic, even easier than a mild hybrid as I can one pedal drive in the Zoe or even Clio ETECH,  

 

3 hours ago, wyx087 said:

I'm all for this and I think that climate friendly/green movement is actually the opportunity to move towards more equality.

 

For example, third world country are leap frogging developed country and directly going to renewables, empowering people without needing a continuous payment.

Another example, micro-mobility are much cheaper to buy and own, but able to achieve most tasks.

 

As always, whether people grasp this opportunity..... But as usual, there's always those who resist changes and get left behind.

 

 

 

Back in the real world and back on topic, to drive change, there's only the carrot or the stick. Unfortunately the stick most affects those who are not well off, this problem is entirely manufactured by the ICE car industry: "buy our latest car for less emissions".

EV have the ability to break that cycle, the longer an EV is kept in use, the less per-mile carbon emissions. Other types of emissions (tyre, brake) can be fixed by changing individual components. The price of EV is due to poor supply of cheap second hand cars as supply, another fault of auto industry not investing in EV's in 2000's and not offering enough EV's back in mid 2010's.

The existing centralised energy industry were doing their best to keep the inequality status quo. Renewables, battery and by extension EV's could change that.

 

I could have placed a bet on that you would put a completely different slant on the moving forward as a society. I meant by lowering the massive gulf that exists in this country between "the haves and have nots", so that nobody has to rely on foodbanks, or rough sleeping etc.

 

You certainly have a very jaundiced view of the ICE car industry, I'm afraid, do you really think that the EV industry isn't going to play a similar game 

3 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

I think you need to click across the business slider which shows £507 but this is is for the current Model 3 and the new, and better, Highland Model 3 is anticipated to be cheaper than this.  £691 is the personal cost number and not proper salary sacrifice.  These cars are oft for workers who spend much of their weekly work hours going between offices and clients and the car is just a high spec trade tool and not an indulgence.

 

Those in the top ten percent have every empathy with those in the lower centiles and have been pointing out the actions of the UK government to feather the nests of the top twenty percent or so to the determent of the lower paid and I am constantly amazed on the lack of action from those disadvantaged by their government.  Uk News announces bosses get 16% pay rise, what do lower paid do, very little,  UK government get ride of the extra 1,5% NI, saves me loads, extending the amount one can put in to ones pension from £40k to £60k a year all feathering the nests of te already well off yet what do the UK lower paid do ?  Very little.  Doctors, Nurses, Teachers, Train drivers all do about workers pay erosion over the last 13 years where as bosses of failing companies continue to pay themselves extraordinary amounts for failure.

 

UK citizens should do a lot more active political action if they want to change inequality.  They will get their chance in a matter of months or so.  Being in the bottom centiles is also not a prerequisite to those knowing what is best for them as the vote for BREXIT showed where poor areas were some of the strongest supporters even though it was predicted it would take 5% of GDP and this is what it apparently done as we compare the UK to Ireland.

 

Back to EVs and it is good that those with larger disposal income have early adopted EVs as this is helping with air quality and speeding up the mass adoption which should benefit the larger driving public but we all breath the same air and I fully support the cities that are introducing ULEZs and will be proud on my next journey down to Heathrow and look forward to seeing the signs I will pass saying it is a ULEZ area.  EVs are gresat to drive in traffic, even easier than a mild hybrid as I can one pedal drive in the Zoe or even Clio ETECH,  

 

Well just maybe next year more people will use their right to vote, hopefully there will less apathy around then, let's wait and see, keep your fingers crossed on that front. Sometimes I feel that we need to be more like the French and revolt at times and say to the authorities enough is enough and make sure that they get the message loud and clear.

44 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

 

You certainly have a very jaundiced view of the ICE car industry, I'm afraid, do you really think that the EV industry isn't going to play a similar game 

What game can they play? 

What game are EV industry going to play to force people to buy new cars? Remember ULEZ and diesel-gate isn't enforced/discovered by the car industry.

 

From government carrot and stick point of view, there is no in-use emissions game to be played.  Once an BEV is produced, it's done. The in-use emissions will be based solely on power grid, which government can clean up and overnight same EV becomes cleaner. 

Unlike old ICE cars, oldest BEV does not pollute more. As it covers more miles, per-mile pollution drops. So there would no longer be any pressure to punish the old BEV owners. Actually the opposite, BEV's need to be incentivised to be kept on the road for as long as possible.

 

With battery in EV's able to be recharged and support people independently from the grid. Anyone can choose to become self reliant by self generate using renewable micro generation. Again, opposite of what ICE cars forced people to do, batteries empower people to gain freedom from the monthly payment status quo.

 

Batteries, not EV's, are the enabler to a whole new world of clean and (by choice) independent energy. BEV just happen to house the biggest one most people will privately own.

 

 

Of course, consumerism will always temp people to buy new things. It's the same for all things, this isn't my problem with the auto industry. My problem is their culture of "fast follower" and unwillingness to be early mass producer of EV's. I was ready for EV in 2017 (and bought one) but I was really frustrated by the lack of choice. Only Nissan-Renault and Tesla made the commitment in early 2010's.

 

 

 

I guess you can tell, I'm an early adopter of all things tech and I'm excited for the future. Already started integrating GPT AI stuff into my work. I'm always looking for opportunities in this changing world.

Just as an example EV manufacturers with over the air updates could easily do an 'Apple' and restric power an battery performance.

 

Just saying....

13 minutes ago, skomaz said:

Just as an example EV manufacturers with over the air updates could easily do an 'Apple' and restric power an battery performance.

 

Just saying....

 

With TESLA more like the other way like here is an extra 100 up or unlocking 20 kWh of battery that was installed by software locked down now made available to owner for a small price or free as is happening.

 

If @wyx087 thinks that once anybody gets an EV thats the last time that the EV makers are going to bother to tempt him buy a new model, then he definitely has his head buried in the sand. They have marketing departments whose task is to encourage sales of new cars to new and existing customers, just the same as ICE makers. You just know what they will be making similar claims about how much greener their new models are over the older ones, more miles/Kw, more range between charges, cheaper running costs etc. 

16 minutes ago, skomaz said:

Just as an example EV manufacturers with over the air updates could easily do an 'Apple' and restric power an battery performance.

 

Just saying....

And how will things like that affect usability of the car when it's 10+ years old? 

Is it going to cost the owner £12 a day extra to drive it? Is it going to pollute more as it ages?

 

5 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

With TESLA more like the other way like here is an extra 100 up or unlocking 20 kWh of battery that was installed by software locked down now made available to owner for a small price or free as is happening.

The free extra battery capacity is probably only during emergency, they are not a charity 😉

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/09/tesla-remotely-extends-the-range-of-some-cars-to-help-with-irma/

3 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

If @wyx087 thinks that once anybody gets an EV thats the last time that the EV makers are going to bother to tempt him buy a new model, then he definitely has his head buried in the sand. They have marketing departments whose task is to encourage sales of new cars to new and existing customers, just the same as ICE makers. You just know what they will be making similar claims about how much greener their new models are over the older ones, more miles/Kw, more range between charges, cheaper running costs etc. 

Please re-read, I've talked about that. You've utterly, completely missed my point:

30 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Of course, consumerism will always temp people to buy new things. It's the same for all things, this isn't my problem with the auto industry.