10 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I'm all for what you suggest, but do you think it's achievable in 2030? 

 

100 miles would mean 30 kWh of battery. Most current cars based on ICE platform are only squeezing in ~15 kWh, with biggest cars having 38 kWh but only 75 miles of range: https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/manufacturer-news/2021/10/26/2022-range-rover-unveiled-prices-and-specification

By 2030 I’d expect an electric platform with a generator not an ICE platform with batteries.
 

If you’re currently pulling around a 150bhp petrol engine, a gearbox and a 50L+ fuel tank then there is lots of weight saving easily available. Composite or Aluminium panels hare used, so could be used more to drop more weight. Engines and fuel tanks can be smaller to reduce weight too.

 

100 miles not real under current testing either, but 80-100 is recharge once a week for many and frankly anything less is really just an ICE most of the time so shouldn’t be sold.

 

EV manufacturers need to look at weight and efficiency too, 3.5 is an ok start, but 4.5 is better for m/kWh.

 

I want an EV that can do a real 400 miles, but I’d rather it came with a 75kWh battery than a 100kWh as it’s cheaper to run. Less weight means better handling too 👍

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

I can hardly imagine a car being make without a bit of hybrid, even in tiny bit like my Arkana which did nearly 70 mpg back from Liverpool yesterday.

Son's Clio ETECH can do over 80 mpg if coaxed using its hybrid system to drive on electric half or even three quarters of the time.

What would you have to do, to make the Etech drive on electric for three quarters or more of the time and increase its MPG and in doing so, reduce its emissions? 

 

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

2035 is the real date.  2030 is a non event really in my opinion.

I tend to agree with this as well, most of the world is adopting this date as it will take time to get the infrastructure in place and ramp up power generation to meet the increased demand.

43 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

For me hybrids should be electric drivetrains, could be petrol/gas even diesel generators and should be able to plug in and charge (AC only) with an electric only range of say 100 miles or 33% of range (whichever is higher). Possibly even a limit on the weight of the engine/fuel side of it to stop companies dropping in a v6 a big fuel tank and a tiny battery.

Surely using a ICE to drive a generator then using the generator's output to charge batteries and also drive an electric motor is less efficient than a mild hybrid?

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

What would you have to do, to make the Etech drive on electric for three quarters or more of the time and increase its MPG and in doing so, reduce its emissions? 

Looks like it runs on petrol. It doesn't plug-in.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/renault/clio/108910/new-renault-clio-e-tech-hybrid-2020-review

 

53 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Surely using a ICE to drive a generator then using the generator's output to charge batteries and also drive an electric motor is less efficient than a mild hybrid?

I think it depends on speed. Petrol powered EV is still more efficient at low speeds (which incidentally wouldn't need range extender). EV efficiency decreases as speed increases, so there will be a speed where petrol-generator-motor setup is less efficient than a diesel ticking over to maintain speed.

 

How about "power split" hybrid, There's 2 motor-generators and an ICE driving a planetary gearbox, like a Toyota hybrid, but with full sized battery for meaningful EV range.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle_drivetrain#Power-split_or_series-parallel_hybrid

Complexity is lower than clutch and gearbox, thus reliability is higher. It can be EV-only driven or engine driven. EV drive low speed, engine drive high speed. Of course EV mode wouldn't be as efficient as direct motor-reduction-gear drive.

 

Chey Volt or Vauxhall Ampera-E: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt#Drivetrain

Edited 13 September, 20232 yr by wyx087
added reduction gear

58 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

What would you have to do, to make the Etech drive on electric for three quarters or more of the time and increase its MPG and in doing so, reduce its emissions? 

I tend to agree with this as well, most of the world is adopting this date as it will take time to get the infrastructure in place and ramp up power generation to meet the increased demand.

 

Just relax and bimble around.  If on a motorway do not zoom along at 70 or 75 mph.  Gentle acceleration, light foot, enjoy the scenery.  

Gentle to mid level braking so always using regen rather than wasteful squeezing of those disc brakes.

Hypermiling bit of foresight needed but no more than the police and advanced driving teaches..................

 

 

 

 

Edited 13 September, 20232 yr by lol-lol

PHEVS allegedly mpg figures are nonsense. Miles Per Gallon, not Miles Per Gallon and Electricity, is not a figure they ever seem to quote. (MPGE?)

 

If you cruise on a motorway at a steady speed, then the electric motor is not in use much and the mpg figure is closer to what the petrol engine alone, can achieve. When driving in a city, the electric motor is in use a lot more and also creates a bit of regen, so the mpg goes up. But once depleted, the car continually does a little top-up of the battery to achieve a constant minimum charge status, so the mpg can go down on the motorway compared to when the vehicle has a bit of charge (that is mostly unused) in the battery, as the car might be driving and charging a little, all done from the petrol engine. Although in town the economy is still better than on the motorway thanks to regen I suspect. As a petrol car I reckon the true average mpg is around 36-40mpg which isn't too bad for a rather heavy car (as all EVs and PHEVs are 😞 ) 

 

I'm pretty sure my next car will be ICE and not EV. Hopefully, if it has to be hybrid, it will be the non plug in type. 

8 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Surely using a ICE to drive a generator then using the generator's output to charge batteries and also drive an electric motor is less efficient than a mild hybrid?

If you charge the car on a plug, and the generator charges a battery below a certain amount it shouldn’t get used that often. A small engine or gas turbine directly runs a generator, the same as the alternator that would be otherwise required.  No gearbox or transmission losses would easily save any small loses.

 

As a generator an engine can run at its ideal RPM so would be more fuel efficient than varying revs with load. 
 

Finally the weight saving vs directly driven hybrid (mild or otherwise) would only add to efficiency.

 

I believe a number of mild hybrids don’t deliver in the real world also, which suggests a degree of box ticking using 48v and a combined generator/alternator/starter to do some assistance.

 

@Lady Elanore

 

Sadly I’m not sure weight is such so different these days:

 

Newest M5 is a smidge under 2 tonnes and an EV6 AWD a smidge over.

 

https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/all-models/m-models/m5-competition/2020/highlights.html

 

I’m not happy about the trend for fat cars and I miss the control you get from a Manual gearbox, although not currently missing the fuel bills. To be fair I also get irritated by the 101 bongs from driver “safety” systems that are not.

Edited 13 September, 20232 yr by cheezemonkhai

PodPoint have these for Maintenance Technicians travelling to work on chargers.

 

 

 

This one has only a 11 kW AC on board charger, ridiculous really for how far it has to cover in Scotland.

Edited 13 September, 20232 yr by toot

They've started using the taxi version of those round here. Just call one via the app like an Uber

 

 

 

https://vhhbus.de/hop/

57 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

 

.............I believe a number of mild hybrids don’t deliver in the real world also, which suggests a degree of box ticking using 48v and a combined generator/alternator/starter to do some assistance.

 

The definition of hybrid seems to be very elastic.  My "Mild" Hybrid Renault Arkana somehow gets called a hybrid but cannot drive in electric mode as my lad's Clio ETECH does or obviously the Zoe does.  All the hybrid does do that is supposedly is to use the alternator/generator to get a bit of regen and, though one cannot detect it, apparently helps with a bit of shove in acceleration seem to remember reading somewhere 8 Nm which is pretty small but Renault claim about an 6 to 8% improvement in fuel consumption and lowering of CO2 over the previous 130 hp, 240 Nm engines.

 

It may be ideal ambient temperature at the moment in mid September but from what the car's  systems are telling me I am doing nearly 70 mpg in a tall C segment car, range showed 710 miles upon fill up, drove 120 miles and it is still showing 630 miles so if I continued to drive that motorway and town driving I would be looking at around 70 mpg and 750 miles out of my 50 litre tank, which I have never got more than 46 litres in. Renault range figure disappears as soon as fuel light comes up weirdly.  So I would say fuel consumption can be awesome in a hybrid.  I was in no rush, often on the car telephone system so only doing around 60 mph but super impressed.  Last winter it was in the low to mid 50 mpgs but it certainly loves the warmer times in the fuel consumption figures.

 

Son's ETECH is more of a proper hybrid, can spend much of its time in EV mode.  The Clio ETECH hybrid has much to commend it I think.He is only get 60 mpg average but he likes to not think about being economical, keeps it in the My Sense adaptive mode rather than ECO or Sport. As above some can get 80 mpg plus out of the car, I suspect I would if I was driving it.  The mixture of ICE and hybrid works much better than I thought.  EV to start the journey off serenely but when you want it the little 1.6 naturally aspirated engine kicks in with quite a nice note, repowers the traction battery then when cruising or braking the ICE shuts down and one is back in pure EV mode.  The emission, particularly NOX are incredibly good.  Range can be 550 miles upon a fill up from its little 39 litre petrol tank.  Price was not massive on purchase, interest free made it a sweeter deal.  Much better for the environment than pure ICE but the range of an ICE.  Good pickup with the electric motors adding to the typical ICE poor torque from just over tickover. Must admit better than I thought it would be.  New Austral with the 200 hp 1.2 turbo engine and ETECH was next level.  80 mph in EV mode, 700 mile range but low CO2 etc. Do miss the tachometer and paddle shifts I have when driving the mild hybrid Arkana but pleasant.  Probably hybrids will be redundant when genuine 500, 600, 700 mile EVs come along which should be within a couple of years for the mass market as the current pace of battery improvements but also tumbling traction battery prices it should not be too long that hybrid are also yesterday, but maybe hydrocarbon hybrids will be to be replaced by hydrogen hybrids.     

 

The EU / Germany should maybe be looking into the kidology / cheating of manufacturers in the EU / Europe partnering with EV manufacturers in China or elsewhere to come up with the false Fleet emission averages.

 

By the EU allowing this cheating the EU manufacturers are able to keep building and selling higher emission / expensive ICE vehicles while not actually building and selling the low emission ones themselves. 

If they were not able to do that they would be paying Millions or Billions of euro in penalties or actually not be making profits so not building vehicles.

 

 

 

Edited 13 September, 20232 yr by toot

11 hours ago, J.R. said:

Forgive my ignorance in asking this question for I have little interest in hybrids, EVs yes as I'm sure I will have one as a project sometime soon but anything that complicates the already overcomplicated ICE vehicles passes me by.

 

My question is: When people quote the "5, 10, 15 mpg better than the ICE only car." or 80mpg etc does all the battery energy being used come from the regenerative braking etc when running on ICE mode? Does that make it an HEV and not a PHEV?

 

Or do PHEV's make the same claims?

 

Actually a bit more complex answer than might first appear.  The hybrid's ICE engine will, and can, charge the hybrid traction battery as well as provide motive power at the same time.

 

ICE motors have terrible efficiency, ie less than 50%, compared to an electric motor of 90% approx and ICE are even worse when not in the zone of their efficiency ie just as the turbo is working efficiently, usually around 2k revs or in a non turbo efficiency is optimum in the mid range ie around 3k revs so Renault, for example, run the ICE in their ETECH cars to both add a bit of propulsion and do  bit of charging say from quarter to three quarters filling the electrical traction battery.  The the ICE switches off and will only come on again if substantial propulsion needed and charge is getting low.

 

Works well, gets CO2 much lower and MPG up.  As Hannah Montana says, "the best of both worlds".

 

1 hour ago, toot said:

This one has only a 11 kW AC on board charger, ridiculous really for how far it has to cover in Scotland.

I was sure I've seen the taxi versions on rapid charger. Podpoint guide suggests it has both CCS and Chademo!?

https://pod-point.com/guides/vehicles/levc/2019/tx

37 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

The definition of hybrid seems to be very elastic.  My "Mild" Hybrid Renault Arkana somehow gets called a hybrid but cannot drive in electric mode as my lad's Clio ETECH does or obviously the Zoe does.  All the hybrid does do that is supposedly is to use the alternator/generator to get a bit of regen and, though one cannot detect it, apparently helps with a bit of shove in acceleration seem to remember reading somewhere 8 Nm which is pretty small but Renault claim about an 6 to 8% improvement in fuel consumption and lowering of CO2 over the previous 130 hp, 240 Nm engines.

 

The Nissan Qashqai I had for 2 months while awaiting a decision on the final value of my written off Superb was a Mild Hybrid and like your Renault, was unable to drive on pure electric mode, it only gave a bit of extra acceleration when stepping on the gas for a snappy overtake or pulling away from rest, after the hybrid battery been charged. etc. 

 

I thought the whole system left me underwhelmed, it was not very satisfactory TBH. I was trained to be as light on the brakes as possible, I was trained by a bus driver and that is how they were taught. When pulling up, as the speed scrubs away almost to zero, to ease off on the brake pedal slightly to avoid a jolt when the car comes to a halt, in order to give passengers a smooth ride and also to avoid any passengers who might be standing, or walking towards the exit of the bus being made unsteady on their feet. So when I tried that in the Qashqai, the system thought I was pulling away and the electric motor would kick in and try to propel the car forward. I was glad to see the back of the Mild Hybrid to be perfectly honest.

2 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

If you charge the car on a plug, and the generator charges a battery below a certain amount it shouldn’t get used that often. A small engine or gas turbine directly runs a generator, the same as the alternator that would be otherwise required.  No gearbox or transmission losses would easily save any small loses.

 

As a generator an engine can run at its ideal RPM so would be more fuel efficient than varying revs with load. 
 

Finally the weight saving vs directly driven hybrid (mild or otherwise) would only add to efficiency.

 

I believe a number of mild hybrids don’t deliver in the real world also, which suggests a degree of box ticking using 48v and a combined generator/alternator/starter to do some assistance.

 

@Lady Elanore

 

Sadly I’m not sure weight is such so different these days:

 

Newest M5 is a smidge under 2 tonnes and an EV6 AWD a smidge over.

 

https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/all-models/m-models/m5-competition/2020/highlights.html

 

I’m not happy about the trend for fat cars and I miss the control you get from a Manual gearbox, although not currently missing the fuel bills. To be fair I also get irritated by the 101 bongs from driver “safety” systems that are not.

 

I get that cars in general get heavier and something like the M5 is very heavy, but it has a massive engine and astonishing performance, whereas a cooking EV is often the same weight and is a one trick pony with rapid acceleration up to a moderate speed.  My M3 is lardy, even though it hides it weight astonishing well, but it is roughly the same weight as my PHEV!! I will like EVs and their ilk slightly more, once they become lighter. As for ICE cars, I'm grateful I can still get them, even if there is a weight penalty these days.

 

EV6 GT is limited at about 160-170mph and I take your point about many being fast to 70 and it being over.

 

just looked at the m5 price… you could get an EV and a fun ICE and still have change. When did the prices go north of £100k 😮😮😮

@wyx087Sorry if you thought i meant it only has 11 kW AC charging and not DC charging.  It has DC charging.

It only has onboard 11kW AC with that one for AC charging not 22 kW AC.

  It has to do working days of a few hundred miles North of Dundee where it has to use AC charging and DC and where there might be no PodPoint available because there is not that many nd they can be needing repaired. 

2 hours ago, toot said:

@wyx087Sorry if you thought i meant it only has 11 kW AC charging and not DC charging.  It has DC charging.

It only has onboard 11kW AC with that one for AC charging not 22 kW AC.

  It has to do working days of a few hundred miles North of Dundee where it has to use AC charging and DC and where there might be no PodPoint available because there is not that many nd they can be needing repaired. 

 

Dundee to John O'Groats, just over 200 miles isn't it, not exactly "a few" hundreds miles ?

It is not like Berwick to Lands End , now that is a few hundred miles ie over 550 miles !

 

 

A working day does not consist of driving to John O Groats.

SWARCO might well have Regional Techs, not all the EV Charger companies have maintenance staff all over the country.

http://thecourier.co.uk/fp/lifestyle/2480461/sponsored-smart-charging-dindee-articleisfree

 

 

 

@J.R.are you joking?

Obviously it does for many people.  & with EV,s and needing to use Rapid Charging in Highland Region at chargers Administered by CPS, even though you work for PodPoint or others.

Past Aviemore, past Inverness, Tain, Wick  etc etc.  maybe doing several jobs and getting far North, maybe an over nighter and maybe not.

Charging maybe while working or maybe having to commission a charger before actually being able to use it.

 

???

Do you think these National Companies / International Companies have Depots and Maintenance Workers all over Scotland and for Inverness & North of there they are based / living in Inverness or North of there? 

 

*RWD and not even All Season tyres on the vehicle or 22 kW AC Charging.)

 

The Highland Region Council Public chargers / 50 kW are 70 pence a kWh and not plentiful.

 

It was even more of a journey for a mate that was a Service Tech on Chargers that had a 250 mile long area to cover, but then no way would he have an EV to do it. 

He lived 50 miles south of the start of the area he had to cover going north.

 

Edinburgh City Council required contractors like MITIE to have EV,s and put a 30 minute max charge time on the Public chargers.

Some tradespeople / drivers had to come from home to Edinburgh to work, charge their 50 kWh vans or even 75 kwh and then work and then charge before heading home because they do not live in Edinburgh or the area or have home chargers.

 

I know drivers that work in South Ayrshire that live quite a bit away and charge in East Ayrshire in the morning,and charge in South Ayrshire maybe at lunch time and again in East Ayrshire before going home at the end of the day.

 

OK for 'Local Vehicles with Local Charging' and not venturing very far in there region, that is not how it is for every driver / worker in Scotland that gets landed with a EV works vehicle. Van or Car. 

 

If they can not get on the Rapid it is good if they can charge at 22 kW AC.

Sadly some will go on these 22 / 43 kW AC chargers and hog them for hours and just get 7 or 11 kW AC and stop those that need the 22 or 43 AC because that is their Rapid Charging.

Edited 14 September, 20232 yr by toot

My gut feeling is that JR meant to say does not just consist of driving A to B. 

 

WTF happened to that charge plug!? Doesn't look like vandal, probably dropped on the ground and the hard plastic shattered. 

No not vandalising.  the AC plugs fall out because they are press button and not locked in they get run over.  People like me will zip tie them up and mark with hazard tape and report them.

Unlike those that use the place all the time and do nothing.   LIKE COUNCIL EMPLOYEES & THEIR BOSSES.

 

Where does @J.R.think PodPoint gets the employee from to do the Northern Part of Scotland, a local contractor or they have an employee up there. or they fly them up and back? 

 

Charge Place Scotland / SWARCO will have chargers out of service for weeks or months and claim a shortage of parts or the Operator is not authorising repair.

Even with something as simple as a cable / charger head.

 

The Stirling Hub is maintained by FES and after i reported the broken charger head it was repaired within the day.

 

......

When the new charging hub near me opened the chargers had a fault and sometime would not release the charger head to start charging, and people wete tugging them and breaking them, or once out and used would not lock back in the charger.

This one was broken in the first couple of weeks.

I put a Zip Tie on it and hazard tape and reported it to CPS / Swarco 15 miles away.

I reported it over the next weeks and months, i asked why SWARCO Maintenance were at the chargers charging and yet chargers were faulty and not getting actions.

I complained to the Council.  These chargers are at the Council Head Quarters. They said they would have CPS deal with it.

I was there daily and watched SWARCO come and go and charge and ignore chargers not working, they said no Ticket Raised, 

Angus Council would not pay.   My ZapMap & PlugShare was trolled and i was told i was a greedy moaning barsteward.

 

Well the cable eventually got replaced.  The Troll should not have been doing it while i was sitting only 2 cars away from them. 

Nor when i knew who their employer was.

Edited 14 September, 20232 yr by toot

21 minutes ago, toot said:

No not vandalising.  the AC plugs fall out because they are press button and not locked in they get run over.  People like me will zip tie them up and mark with hazard tape and report them.

Unlike those that use the place all the time and do nothing.

 

Where does @J.R.think PodPoint gets the employee from to do the Northern Part of Scotland, a local contractor or they have an employee up there. or they fly them up and back? 

 

Charge Place Scotland / SWARCO will have chargers out of service for weeks or months and claim a shortage of parts or the Operator is not authorising repair.

Even with something as simple as a cable / charger head.

 

The Stirling Hub is maintained by FES and after i reported the broken charger head it was repaired within the day.

Correct, people have to get there to do the work, I have had to drive from Chelmsford to Newcastle on Tyne and back before on the same day for work, this does in deed happen, maybe it's not expected where @J.R. lives but here it most certainly is. 

Edited 14 September, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

People have homes, family children and do want home.

Tourist areas have accommodation shortages and not every workers wants to stay in **** B&b,s.   Some do.

 

They might have done the job when they had a Diesel Vehicle suitable for the journeys required of them.

 

My nephews work all over Scotland for National Companies, they are based / live around the Moray firth and go further north and to islands.

That can be half a day travel to a job and maybe an hour or 3,s work and then back home, or maybe another job or 3.

 

They do live away on occasions for some jobs.  They do not want Electric Vans yet the National Company wants to provide them.

They do not understand they are no use for carrying tools & a passenger or more & do the distances and be able to get charged without the occupants hanging about.

They do not understand Weather either.

Edited 14 September, 20232 yr by toot

5 minutes ago, toot said:

People have homes, family children and do want home.

Tourist areas have accommodation shortages and not every workers wants to stay in **** B&b,s.   Some do.

 

My nephews work all over Scotland for National Companies, they are based / live around the Moray firth and go further north and to islands.

That can be half a day travel to a job and maybe an hour or 3,s work and then back home, or maybe another job or 3.

 

They do live away on occasions for some jobs.  They do not want Electric Vans yet the National Company wants to provide them.

They do not understand they are no use for carrying tools & a passenger or more & do the distances and be able to get charged without the occupants hanging about.

They do not understand Weather either.

I know of tradesmen who have been given electric vans which are not capable of lugging their tools etc up the hills in their area so refuse to use them.

 

On 10/09/2023 at 09:11, wyx087 said:

 

Have I glossed over the issue? 
 

Point is it’s indeed a problem need solving, it need to be solved in such a way so that everyone can contribute to the renewable energy transition. I laid out the reason why EV are critical part of the transition, how smart public slow charging can help both consumer and grid.
 

Credit where credit is due, you didn’t mention rapid charging and same model of re-energise the vehicle is a must. Also you recognised cost benefit of able to charge at home. 
 

Let me re-iterate, I totally understand there is a have/have not gap that need addressing. And need a top-down strategy for this fast. Unfortunately this kind of “levelling the playing field” is something uk government is very bad at……. 

Glad that you admit it needs resolving, but how do you propose it is done, flatten all tower blocks, level all old unsuitable streets full of terraced houses many of which are barely any wider than a cars length, and rebuild millions of house with drives? The point that I was making was that quoting what you pay for home charging does NOT those that can't and that cannot see a way that they own an EV. Showing that there is a good supporting structure and making public charging no more expensive is a solution to the problem. Like I said, who fills their ICE at home, nobody, so make an EV appear to be as easy and no more expensive than a conventional car to buy, refuel, and run. Geez.....