28 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

If a car is not at least got a tiny bit of hybrid, like my Arkana which does not have EV mode but only coasting but still qualifies as mild hybrid, then the car is so technically old, bit of an MG3, then it does not deserve to be on the road and that bit of cost not having minimal hybrid systems will have save the buyer a bit of money out of the showroom but cost the buyer every day in fuel cost they car is used.  No brainer.

 

Well, that is interesting, my car in ECO mode will coast for very long periods and is in fact how I drive it most of the time with a light touch of the brakes to re-engage the transmission to get engine braking at junctions etc with a further light touch of the brakes to come to a halt as bus drivers have been taught how to, in order to treat passengers as if they were eggs. So that, according to you, makes my car into a mild hybrid? In fact, any vehicle is capable of coasting by dipping the clutch or slipping into neutral.

 

There are in fact for more polluting things that should and could be tackled before attacking the car, but that won't happen because it involves authorities investing huge sums of money, but charging the public money for driving in low emission zones, and making the public purchase hybrids or EV's will produce an income stream for them. I wonder just how many would drive an EV if the actual mining of the rare metals was done over here in their backyards with all massive toxic lagoons etc, with the real potential of making water dangerous to drink.

Edited 20 September, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

1 minute ago, Graham Butcher said:

Well, that is interesting, my car in ECO mode will coast for very long periods and is in fact how I drive it most of the time with a light touch of the brakes to re-engage the transmission to get engine braking at junctions etc with a further light touch of the brakes to come to a halt as bus drivers have been taught how to, in order to treat passengers as if they were eggs. So that, according to you, makes my car into a mild hybrid?

 

There are in fact for more polluting things that should and could be tackled before attacking the car, but that won't happen because it involves authorities investing huge sums of money, but charging the public money for driving in low emission zones, and making the public purchase hybrids or EV's will produce an income stream for them. I wonder just how many would drive an EV if the actual mining of the rare metals was done over here in their backyards with all massive toxic lagoons etc, with the real potential of making water dangerous to drink.

 

Coasting means, or should mean, engine completely off and not just clutch or clutches disengaged, my Octavia 1.4 TSI with 7 speed DSG would do this, it was never described as a hybrid as far as I was aware but the same coasting bit but I think my Arkana goes one step further and during acceleration the starter motor converts to a little electric motor assist and this gives the power unit a bump up from 240 Nm to 260 Nm and 130 hp to 140 hp and this help fuel consumption by about 6% or so.  I am presuming it is this small assist and regen element that gets it categorized as hybrid and not the coasting but hey, I will take the tenner off the annual road tax and the torque, power and fuel consumption tweak even if just a handful of percentage on each.  Less running cost, less visits to the petrol station, better driving experience.  Take all of that all day long, no downside I can see yet and buy cost was lowish, £25K for a segment C car, 100k mileage, 5 year warranty, more safety systems that I know what to do with.  

 

Mild hybrid. One would have to be a masochist not to accept these technical advancements which make driving and owning that little bit better for small money and these European cars are nowa aimed to be 95 grams/km or less, dropping by 1 gm per km each year else EU will fine those car makers and even UK cars need to take account of this and will, I presume, pay this levy hence the technical progression each year we see on a car like the Clio, year on year on year, 97, 96, 95 grams per km down each year and fuel consumption improvement by about 1 mpg per year also and so it progresses.  

 

43 minutes ago, toot said:

@Graham ButcherListen to the SMMT dude talking on the telly or radio.

The requirement on reducing numbers of ICE vehicles first registered in the UK still starts next year. 

So be that a build up to 2030 or 2035 it is what the manufacturers are working towards. 

 

Euro 7 Emission standards will come in and then we will know what vehicles manufacturers have to release then as far as size and price goes for ICE engines.

Some people are already saying it is getting difficult to buy some ICE cars now, as many manufacturers appear to have reduced their output of such vehicles or have already announced stopping their manufacture in favour of hybrids and EV/s.

Some people are right then.

But the world is still their oyster and if never another car is built there are enough in the UK to last everyone for another 20 years. 

4 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Coasting means, or should mean, engine completely off and not just clutch or clutches disengaged, my Octavia 1.4 TSI with 7 speed DSG would do this, it was never described as a hybrid as far as I was aware but the same coasting bit but I think my Arkana goes one step further and during acceleration the starter motor converts to a little electric motor assist and this gives the power unit a bump up from 240 Nm to 260 Nm and 130 hp to 140 hp and this help fuel consumption by about 6% or so.  I am presuming it is this small assist and regen element that gets it categorized as hybrid and not the coasting but hey, I will take the tenner off the annual road tax and the torque, power and fuel consumption tweak even if just a handful of percentage on each.  Less running cost, less visits to the petrol station, better driving experience.  Take all of that all day long, no downside I can see yet and buy cost was lowish, £25K for a segment C car, 100k mileage, 5 year warranty, more safety systems that I know what to do with.  

 

Mild hybrid. One would have to be a masochist not to accept these technical advancements which make driving and owning that little bit better for small money and these European cars are nowa aimed to be 95 grams/km or less, dropping by 1 gm per km each year else EU will fine those car makers and even UK cars need to take account of this and will, I presume, pay this levy hence the technical progression each year we see on a car like the Clio, year on year on year, 97, 96, 95 grams per km down each year and fuel consumption improvement by about 1 mpg per year also and so it progresses.  

 

No ICE vehicle should ever be driven with engine switched off, it is totally dangerous to do so as the engine is required to either power the hydraulics in the event of power brakes and steering in cars such as Citroens etc and in other cars for the vacuum for servo brakes, and of course, there is zero motive power to accelerate out off danger if the need arises.

@Graham Butcher Turning off an ignition switch is a whole different story.

The VW Group vehicles that do shut down the engine to coast to a halt do that, no ignition off,  and have for several years now.

You need to go google again. 

 

 

 

 

Edited 20 September, 20232 yr by toot

4 minutes ago, toot said:

@Graham ButcherThe VW Group vehicles that do shut down the engine to coast do that and have for several years now.

You need to go google again. 

Well, my 2016 superb (also a VW group product) doesn't, it drops the revs right down to a tickover and as the steering is electric, it also keeps power applied to the steering and the brakes, engine off means no servo assistance to the brakes and also no steering, so how do these VW group cars circumvent those two requirements? 

@Graham ButcherMy TDI did actually turn off the engine and disengage gear as it coasted to a halt. 

But that is what we have had over the decade past, VW trying different systems.   See the Video above your last post.

 

@lol-lolhas been posting for years about Coasting by going into neutral.  He did when he had a Fabia vRS Twincharger with a DSG.  I never would. 

Edited 20 September, 20232 yr by toot

Me thinks you are talking at cross purposes.

 

 

The BRS system is in a Hybrid car so the car is controlled by the 48v battery when the engine turns off. the car is not "coasting" in the traditional sense

 

Coasting (turning the engine off and engaging neutral)  in a standard ICE car is illegal

49 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

No ICE vehicle should ever be driven with engine switched off, it is totally dangerous to do so as the engine is required to either power the hydraulics in the event of power brakes and steering in cars such as Citroens etc and in other cars for the vacuum for servo brakes, and of course, there is zero motive power to accelerate out off danger if the need arises.

 

You seem to be about a decade behind the curve.

This is a setting feature that has been in Audi/VAG/Skoda cars for about a decade.

It is all engine management system managed through the DSG system as it is through Renault's EDC system too.

 

The re-engagement of the engine is achieved in hundreds not even tenths of a second as the Audi/VW/Skoda/Renault fires in the engine and pops back in one of the dual clutches faster than even a F1 racing driver can think and act.  One press the accelerator to do the overtime and the power is there, in the hybrids case with some or a lot of electric assist as well.  This is how my Octavia and Arkana work and it is entirely within what the manufacturers have designed and built in to modern cars.  

 

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

 

The CO2 is not the main concern anymore it is the NOX and PMs............................

 

https://carfueldata.vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk/downloads/download.aspx?rg=aug2014

Description	Transmission	Transmission type	Emissions NOx [mg/km]	THC + NOx Emissions [mg/km]	Particulates [No.] [mg/km]	Euro Standard	Booklet	VED Band
2.0 Duratorq ECO (163PS) Saloon (+DPF)	Manual	M6	144	171	0.3	5	August 2014	C
2.0 Duratorq ECOnetic (140PS) Saloon (+DPF)	Manual	M6	144	171	0.3	5	August 2014	C
2.0 Duratorq ECO (163PS) Estate (+DPF)	Manual	M6	144	171	0.3	5	August 2014	C
2.0 Duratorq ECOnetic (140PS) Estate (+DPF)	Manual	M6	144	171	0.3	5	August 2014	C
2.0 Duratorq (140PS) Estate (+DPF)	Manual	M6	154	189	0.1	5	August 2014	D
2.0 Duratorq (140PS) Saloon (+DPF)	Manual	M6	154	189	0.1	5	August 2014	D
2.0 Duratorq (163PS) Estate (+DPF)	Manual	M6	154	189	0.1	5	August 2014	D
2.0 Duratorq (163PS) Saloon (+DPF)	Manual	M6	154	189	0.1	5	August 2014	D
2.0 Duratorq ECO (163PS) Estate (+DPF)	Automatic	A6	134	176	0.3	5	August 2014	E
2.0 Duratorq ECO (163PS) Saloon (+DPF)	Automatic	A6	134	176	0.3	5	August 2014	E
2.0 Duratorq ECOnetic (140PS) Estate (+DPF)	Automatic	A6	134	176	0.3	5	August 2014	E
2.0 Duratorq ECOnetic (140PS) Saloon (+DPF)	Automatic	A6	134	176	0.3	5	August 2014	E

 

 

 

The CO2 is what is stated to be contributing to Climate change though.

 

The NOx is regarding Breathable air quality

 

We have just moved the goal posts in what the government think we can be charged for doing.

 

Get a diesel they said to reduce CO2 so many people did.

 

Diesels are dirty they need a DPF they said, so many went along with that one too, despite poorer fuel consumption as a result.

 

So we lower the CO2, then lower the Particulate matter

 

Now they say Nox

 

They will think of something else when we are all electric

37 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Well, my 2016 superb (also a VW group product) doesn't, it drops the revs right down to a tickover and as the steering is electric, it also keeps power applied to the steering and the brakes, engine off means no servo assistance to the brakes and also no steering, so how do these VW group cars circumvent those two requirements? 

 

More modern Skodas, Audis VW, Renaults, Samsungs just take this one step further by shutting off engine completely either until a touch of the throttle near instantly brings the ICE back to revs as one of the dual clutches also pops in.  It was not on the Fabia DSG but it was on the later model OCtavia dry clutch 7 DSGs as well as wet one Audi etc use.   Just a logical progression and super quick reacting.

 

1 minute ago, toot said:

@Graham ButcherMy TDI did actually turn off the engine and disengage gear as it coasted to a halt. 

But that is what we have had over the decade past, VW trying different systems. 

 

@lol-lolhas been posting for years about Coasting by going into neutral.  He did when he had a Fabia vRS Twincharger with a DSG.  I never would. 

Well my Superb will sometimes switch off the engine just prior to completely coming to a halt, maybe rolling about a meter or so with no power, but the car does not class that as coasting. I get a warning on my instrument cluster when I lift my foot completely off the throttle pedal that displays "COASTING", but the engine is still ticking over to produce the power needed for the steering and brakes.

 

Like @lol-lol I too have coasted by slipping into neutral in a manual car, especially if running low on fuel but it is frowned upon as you do not have full control of the car while doing so. Unlike my current car with its DSG transmission, a push of the throttle or brake pedal, complete control of the car is restored automatically and no further input is required, it is a completely natural and instinctive action. In fact there were cars that had a freewheel device fitted to it many years ago.

 

Freewheel - Wikipedia

@Stonekeeper VW made sure there was not poor fuel consumption with a DPF, they introduced the defeat device.

 

They ended up with many vehicles not suitable for purpose, like diesels as a Taxi / Private hire car in towns / cities.

Nobody getting compensation got it because the TDI was uneconomical on fuel did they? 

 

@Graham ButcherA Fabia Mk2 Twincharger is not a manual car. 

 

I have been driving only 2 pedal cars since the mid 1970,s. 

You keep teaching Grandad about sucking eggs. 

 I do like to know how they operate and i think i have driven every type of Auto, CVT or Servo Clutch type combined to every engine type.

Edited 20 September, 20232 yr by toot

37 minutes ago, toot said:

@Graham ButcherMy TDI did actually turn off the engine and disengage gear as it coasted to a halt. 

But that is what we have had over the decade past, VW trying different systems.   See the Video above your last post.

 

@lol-lolhas been posting for years about Coasting by going into neutral.  He did when he had a Fabia vRS Twincharger with a DSG.  I never would. 

 

Yep and still do with the Arkana ie when the hybrid's coasting system is not cutting the engine or not even popping both clutches to go in to detached engine to wheels mode then slide the gear stick in to neutral to save fuel.  Only when nice a clear of other traffic and nothing around that would need a sudden touch on the accelerator peddle to nip out of trouble, Gazelle using a Zebra crossing without looking, or is that a Zebra using a Gazelle crossing.  Slip it back in to Drive, or B mode and that is in any of the hybrids or the EV or the ICE cars before that, helps with the fuel consumption and only do it when no one with 100 yards or more.   

 

9 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Well my Superb will sometimes switch off the engine just prior to completely coming to a halt, maybe rolling about a meter or so with no power, but the car does not class that as coasting. I get a warning on my instrument cluster when I lift my foot completely off the throttle pedal that displays "COASTING", but the engine is still ticking over to produce the power needed for the steering and brakes.

 

Like @lol-lol I too have coasted by slipping into neutral in a manual car, especially if running low on fuel but it is frowned upon as you do not have full control of the car while doing so. Unlike my current car with its DSG transmission, a push of the throttle or brake pedal, complete control of the car is restored automatically and no further input is required, it is a completely natural and instinctive action. In fact there were cars that had a freewheel device fitted to it many years ago.

 

Freewheel - Wikipedia

 

Saabs I remember.  Think it was a 96.

 

 

16 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

 

The CO2 is what is stated to be contributing to Climate change though.

 

The NOx is regarding Breathable air quality

 

We have just moved the goal posts in what the government think we can be charged for doing.

 

Get a diesel they said to reduce CO2 so many people did.

 

Diesels are dirty they need a DPF they said, so many went along with that one too, despite poorer fuel consumption as a result.

 

So we lower the CO2, then lower the Particulate matter

 

Now they say Nox

 

They will think of something else when we are all electric

They will probably start to blame an increase in ozone. 

24 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

You seem to be about a decade behind the curve.

This is a setting feature that has been in Audi/VAG/Skoda cars for about a decade.

It is all engine management system managed through the DSG system as it is through Renault's EDC system too.

 

The re-engagement of the engine is achieved in hundreds not even tenths of a second as the Audi/VW/Skoda/Renault fires in the engine and pops back in one of the dual clutches faster than even a F1 racing driver can think and act.  One press the accelerator to do the overtime and the power is there, in the hybrids case with some or a lot of electric assist as well.  This is how my Octavia and Arkana work and it is entirely within what the manufacturers have designed and built in to modern cars.  

 

Oh, how can I be a decade behind the curve when my car is a 2016 model, it is also a VW group car, being that it is a Skoda, it has an ECO setting and part of that setting is the coasting mode, where the engine disconnects from the wheels when I lift my foot off the throttle, providing of course, that the car is actually going faster than the engine speed, as soon as the car is going as slow as the engine the drive reconnects as normal automatically.

 

So explain how my car is 2016 and this is 2013 and that makes my car just 7 years old and yet you claim that I'm a decade behind the curve, does not compute.

8 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Oh, how can I be a decade behind the curve when my car is a 2016 model, it is also a VW group car, being that it is a Skoda, it has an ECO setting and part of that setting is the coasting mode, where the engine disconnects from the wheels when I lift my foot off the throttle, providing of course, that the car is actually going faster than the engine speed, as soon as the car is going as slow as the engine the drive reconnects as normal automatically.

So explain how my car is 2016 and this is 2013 and that makes my car just 7 years old and yet you claim that I'm a decade behind the curve, does not compute.

 

I had some of the earlier 6 speed DQ250 gear boxes, thought it was a good pair up when it was either a 5 speed manual or the 6 speed wet DQ250 but then I had a SEAT with the 2 litre   140 hp Common rail diesel and wonder why it was slower and much thirstier than the 1.9 PD, that when I realised diesel had had their day compared to the new turbo petrols with 7 speed DSG/EDCSs that were coming up about 13 years ago.  DQ200 needed no 40k servicing, oil change etc, seemed more efficient and was a lot lighter than the DQ250, could not handle the bigger torque ie over 250 Nm, although they can actually handle 380 Nm but probably not for 400k kms as was the original design brief.

 

 Audis/VAGs etc started getting the better DQ380, then DQ381 from 2015 but Skoda, no doubt for reasons of being cheap, continued to use the DQ250 gearbox which I regard as a bit of an old nail and they are all 7 speed I think.  I rate the DQ250 so poorly, it was OK up until 8 years ago when the DQ380 etc appeared, the DQ500 was already around but overkill for a two wheel drive Superb and as well as the 7 speeds the DQ200 and DQ380/1 just were newer more advanced gearboxes and the DQ250 just got left as the cooking auto gearbox.  I some tests it even produced worse mpg than the manuals whereas the 7 speeds were the other way usually showing mpg a couple better than the manual and even lower CO2 as well.

 

Year of manufacture does not indicate a car is using the latest tech gearboxes or anything else.  If VAG were still finding buyers for tech that is several years old then they will, and have.

 

VW were not born yesterday.

There are world regions were they still build and sell just what people want.   1.4 TSI,s with a 8 speed automatic.   North America, Canada, Australia and some countries in between. 

They just had to be honest about the emissions & not any problems then.

 

DQ380,s were short lived as to what they went in.

The DQ381,s longevity is in question and that ridiculous service regime might get changed anytime soon. 

VW Group are struggling for DSG,s for mild hybrids for the Mild Hybrids or PHEV,s and have just DQ200-e or DQ400-e,s.

Edited 20 September, 20232 yr by toot

1 minute ago, toot said:

VW were not born yesterday.

There are world regions were they still build and sell just what people want.   1.4 TSI,s with a 8 speed automatic.   North America, Canada, Australia and some countries in between.   They just had to be honest about the emissions & not any problems then

 

And sadly UK does not get all the models and sometimes have stopped getting the best models.

Out of all the Fabia and Octavia VRSs, Felicas and Superb the best car was the 1.8 TSI L&K, Mk2 Octavia.

Engine revved to 7k, the short stroke EA888 I think.  If that was 160 hp I am a Dutchman.  Tested as 0-60 of 7.5s, was still pulling hard at 135 mph and had a long list of luxury features but also good on juice, around 50 mph I recall thanks to its 7 speed dry clutch DSG.

 

Worst Skoda out of the 15 or so, mark 1 Superb.  Handled like a barge, worse than the Felecia I think. 1.9 PD was OK, lots of room for 3 kids and their stuff butt ugly and bad handling. 

Why did I buy it, never mind the quality, feel the width. 

 

8 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

I had some of the earlier 6 speed DQ250 gear boxes, thought it was a good pair up when it was either a 5 speed manual or the 6 speed wet DQ250 but then I had a SEAT with the 2 litre   140 hp Common rail diesel and wonder why it was slower and much thirstier than the 1.9 PD, that when I realised diesel had had their day compared to the new turbo petrols with 7 speed DSG/EDCSs that were coming up about 13 years ago.  DQ200 needed no 40k servicing, oil change etc, seemed more efficient and was a lot lighter than the DQ250, could not handle the bigger torque ie over 250 Nm, although they can actually handle 380 Nm but probably not for 400k kms as was the original design brief.

 

 Audis/VAGs etc started getting the better DQ380, then DQ381 from 2015 but Skoda, no doubt for reasons of being cheap, continued to use the DQ250 gearbox which I regard as a bit of an old nail and they are all 7 speed I think.  I rate the DQ250 so poorly, it was OK up until 8 years ago when the DQ380 etc appeared, the DQ500 was already around but overkill for a two wheel drive Superb and as well as the 7 speeds the DQ200 and DQ380/1 just were newer more advanced gearboxes and the DQ250 just got left as the cooking auto gearbox.  I some tests it even produced worse mpg than the manuals whereas the 7 speeds were the other way usually showing mpg a couple better than the manual and even lower CO2 as well.

 

Year of manufacture does not indicate a car is using the latest tech gearboxes or anything else.  If VAG were still finding buyers for tech that is several years old then they will, and have.

 

Well, I can't vouch for anything really other than Škoda Superb's as they have been my choice of car for the 19 years and really suit my needs of a comfortable car suitable for long journeys, fast and efficient enough for my needs, both as a company car and private car, that needs to carry 5 adults in comfort especially when 4 of those adults are at least 6' 4" tall and 2 of those are also well-built. I don't need to have a superfast accelerating VRS type of performance etc. So for all my requirements, the Škoda Superb ticks all the right boxes. It looks great, handles great, goes fast enough, has enough luxury, has space that puts many cars from classes above it to shame, is reliable, holds its value well (unlike Audi's) etc.

2 hours ago, toot said:

@Graham Butcher Turning off an ignition switch is a whole different story.

The VW Group vehicles that do shut down the engine to coast to a halt do that, no ignition off,  and have for several years now.

You need to go google again. 

 

 

Does not need to be 48V, Arkana is all 12V including hybrid.

 

I gather TESLA have decided to go for 48V for all of the auto systems, wow that is a going your own way !

 

5 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Well, I can't vouch for anything really other than Škoda Superb's as they have been my choice of car for the 19 years and really suit my needs of a comfortable car suitable for long journeys, fast and efficient enough for my needs, both as a company car and private car, that needs to carry 5 adults in comfort especially when 4 of those adults are at least 6' 4" tall and 2 of those are also well-built. I don't need to have a superfast accelerating VRS type of performance etc. So for all my requirements, the Škoda Superb ticks all the right boxes. It looks great, handles great, goes fast enough, has enough luxury, has space that puts many cars from classes above it to shame, is reliable, holds its value well (unlike Audi's) etc.

 

Only a mother could love the looks of a mark one Superb.  I heard the mark one was a 100 mm stretched Passat which it felt like they did without bothering to retune suspension.

Passats and Superb are useful and almost the go to car for the freakishly tall.  Potential son in laws brother is 6'10 I gather and his choice was limited to Passat, Superb or Chrysler 300.

 

After that one excursion of owning a Superb went back to Octavia which I thought ticked boxes for size of car in the boot and cabin and meant I did not have to take the hit on acceleration and fuel consumption over the Octavia but always was jealous they got the 280 hp 4 wheel drive model which is the only Superb I would give a second look to. 

 

8 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Worst Skoda out of the 15 or so, mark 1 Superb.  Handled like a barge, worse than the Felecia I think. 1.9 PD was OK, lots of room for 3 kids and their stuff butt ugly and bad handling. 

Why did I buy it, never mind the quality, feel the width. 

I went from VW Passats onto the Mk1 Superb, and TBH I thought it looked way better than the Passat and with is extra length, also rode far better as well. Yes I know that many of the motoring journalists at the time criticized them both as being dull and boring in the twisty country roads, lacked feel etc, but I never had any such experiences, and TBH, you shouldn't be whizzing around on those roads as they are the worst possible roads for enthusiastic driving unless you know that you have the road all to yourself like so many of those journalists did.