52 minutes ago, RicardoM said:

Head gasket for sure.

Read this topic and this topic for details.

Please advise me on the warpage tolerance of the head. 

I think I'm going to be attempting it. 

Much as I'm sure it's head gasket between a coolant path and a cylinder, there's a couple of extra things you can do to be totally certain. I might be being a bit unfair, but I do tend to associate LPG with head gasket failures. 

 

-:When you turn the engine off, the header tank may bubble quite violently as the compression pushes through into the coolant.

 

- Perform a sniffer test.

 

- Give it some pedal and see if it steams out of the exhaust.

 

I caught myself out recently on a car with a faulty egr cooler looking like it's got head gasket failure. There's nowhere on these where the exhaust and coolant run through the same component is there? 

3 hours ago, StevesTruck said:

Give it some pedal and see if it steams out of the exhaust

Not yet. 

But I bought. 

Payen hg

Vika (couldn't find anything else) intake gasket 

And metal exhaust gaskets. 

 

On 07/01/2022 at 11:18, StevesTruck said:

 I'd spend the time finding a second hand engine and getting it ready to fit in time for when the inevitable happens.

 

 

 

It's not so easy here, lot of bureaucracy and if not everything is done perfect then in a traffic police stop or in the Vehicle technical inspection Center (every 2 years here) you may have a huge problem, this means from a big fine and disqualification till seizure and court.

Engine swap maybe it's very easy in other countries but here is from ''nightmare" to ''impossible" due to the Law, very sad situation caused by narrow-minded politicians.

 

@Thefeliciahacker A relative thread in Greek language:

https://forum.4troxoi.gr/topic/75687/node-75687/8

 

pay attention of what the user g60 said about that motor.

 

As for availability:

https://volkswagengroup.gr/Ανταλλακτικά-αυτοκινήτων_77/Μηχανικά-και-Εξαρτήματα_126/3876?sort=p.model&order=ASC

and

https://kritosparts.gr/SKODA-FELICIA-II-(6U1)-01-98-06-01-1.3-AMH-(68hp)-01-98-06-01/Flantza-kylindrokefali/m106_a4075_t11193_r318_v2

 

Sorry for you Felicia.

 

 

17 minutes ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

pay attention of what the user g60 said about that motor.

YES i was aware of keeping the liners steady, I wouldn't make this mistake, tapping the head with a mallet and so on.

 

17 minutes ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

As for availability:

i've bought all the parts,

But please someone inform me on the warpage tolerances of the head.

Edited 8 January, 20224 yr by Thefeliciahacker

40 minutes ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

warpage tolerances of the head

I can provide you with:

 

Cylinder head bolts stage1 Nm and stage 2, stage 3 angles

Cylinder head nuts

Cylinder head fastener tightening sequence.

1 hour ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

But please someone inform me on the warpage tolerances of the head.

 

I didn't find this mentioned in the workshop manual.

 

Common practice is to resurface the head when the gasket is changed.

9 minutes ago, Papez said:

I didn't find this mentioned in the workshop manual

I didn't find it either that's why I asked. 

If I can avoid skimming I would avoid it. 

37 minutes ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

Cylinder head bolts stage1 Nm and stage 2, stage 3 angles

Cylinder head nuts

Cylinder head fastener tightening sequence

I got all that but many thanks 

Quote

This engine's (Skoda Estelle/120, 70s, RWD, rear mounted engine) head is cast iron, the block is aluminium and I'm checking it's flatness. What would be the correct flatness clearance range? I have seen a few sites, but none says it in a straight and specific way, they all say "use a feeler gauge" and that's it. But, what's the correct numbers? Is it up to 0.5 mm?

 

Modern engine with steel head gasket would require a maximum of 0.003" or 0.075mm. You can have a more irregular surface if you have an older engine with thicker compressible head gasket. The surfaces should be flat so that they match accurately as the error will grow as the different materials expand at different rates during temperature changes.

For your engine I do not know the correct spec but I would recommend a skim if can fit a 0.5mm feeler under a straight edge - that is way too big and would not hold.

Another thing to think about is if the problem areas would allow pressure to escape or are self contained. Air-cooled engines can get away with much more due to the mating area being that much larger, water cooled engines tend to blow into the water channels where the gasket mating area is thin.

 

https://mechanics.stackexchange.com/questions/44879/checking-engine-head-for-flatness-what-clearance-generally-in-mm

On 07/01/2022 at 23:55, Thefeliciahacker said:

Please advise me on the warpage tolerance of the head.

0.05 mm

@Thefeliciahackersorry, I have only just seen this thread I did not know of your woes. 

 

And I do not want to add to them, just giving some information that may not be relevant to your head gasket but just in case it might be.

 

Two summers ago I had to change my head gasket and it was during our first lockdown so contacting companies was more difficult then.

 

I had a black (yours might be green?) semi-tacky Payen and on it was a sticker stating that the coolant should only be added when the engine could be immediately run.  I discovered it was a fault with the gasket that needed it I guess curing otherwise it would leak coolant and indeed I heard of a story where this happened.

 

Now that might have only been on a certain batch of that one and only model of gasket (BK 450) at only that time.  Unfortunately at the time I was unable to find Payen to contact as I initially thought the sticker looked like it had been added by the supplier as advice rather than the manufacturer.

 

Those BK 450 gaskets were not available for a good while after that but that might just have been Covid related but I see they are available now.

 

You are there with no thermostat fitted, lower temperature fan sensor switch and heater on full.

 

Good luck.

 

Mine is a green bt581 and it didn't seem to have any of those advices. 

Yet again why do you think this advice was applied. 

11 hours ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

Mine is a green bt581 and it didn't seem to have any of those advices. 

Yet again why do you think this advice was applied. 

Sorry I could not find the story to quote here but it was about an owner that fitted the gasket and filled the engine with water ready to test the next day to discover when he went in his garage the next morning (the luxury of having a garage, I do not) the water had leaked out at the gasket.

 

I did not know this until after the gasket was fitted to my car and thought the sticker was from the supplier as general advice.

 

This related to a gasket size originally used for the BL Metro Turbo IIRC but popular for particularly over bored classic Mini and other models engines (BK450).

 

To my surprise I found a photo scan I took of the sticker, which was really a small hand cut piece of paper clear taped on the outside of the gasket packaging, and posted it to a specialist MG forum (see below).

 

ETA: note, the bit about the head studs relates to a cast iron engine and head. 

 

 

  

Edited 11 January, 20224 yr by nta16
ETA:

Interesting in either case I will add water only when I'm going to start the engine. 

Dear friend; when I saw the topic title, I thought your Felly was involved in an accident, fire or something like that. I felt deeply saddened. When I read the topic I felt relieved. Head gasket replacement job is not the end of your car. Please don't worry.

 

Take my car as an example. It still has it's original block. It has unknown mileage. (Maybe over 300K Km) Multiple previous owners. It experienced HGF too many times that original head became impossible to skim further so it had been fitted with an aftermarket engine head.

 

My very first posts here is about HGF.

Due to the costs and fear of improper fixing techniques, I had to do the HGF job myself. I got zero experience back then! I did it with your help. Remember? I did thousands of KMs since the HGF repair and the engine is still working!

 

HGF is not the end. It's just your Felly needs some attention from you.

 

Just a side note:

When I finally decided it's HGF the car had this symptom.

When the engine is hot, especially just after climbing a hill, stop the engine. Wait 2-5 minutes. Fire the engine again. If you see an intense release of white smoke there is a high probability the HG is gone.

37 minutes ago, R_Blue said:

Dear friend; when I saw the topic title, I thought your Felly was involved in an accident, fire or something like that. I felt deeply saddened. When I read the topic I felt relieved.

sorry for causing concern

39 minutes ago, R_Blue said:

When the engine is hot, especially just after climbing a hill, stop the engine. Wait 2-5 minutes. Fire the engine again. If you see an intense release of white smoke there is a high probability the HG is gone.

thats catastrophic failure mine as you saw in the vid is a bit more tame

49 minutes ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

sorry for causing concern

No, no... It's perfectly OK. I know how you feel. I felt just the same when I had HGF issue. My biggest nightmare was disturbing liner seals in the process. Other than that, you know I did this at home so any failure that would leave the car disabled means towing. Towing means going to mechanic. Costs would pile up that way.

One night, I was browsing the web, collecting info and I was like: what if the head bolts get broken? what if I disturb the liner seals? What if I find corrosion inside the block beyond repair? @RicardoM says, just bite the bullet and do the job. Hell of an advice. I remember he also said something like that; things don't always end up the worst way possible. Be positive.

Personally, I found rebuilding the rear wheel assembly harder than HGF repair.

 

HGF and MANY other issues with the car left me sleepless many nights. The HGF repair work day was also left me sleepless because I worked until very late hours. Luckily you have other cars at your disposal. I had to carry parts with bicycle. (I live on top of a hill)

 

I just checked local sources and there is still new aftermarket engine heads here. They come complete with valves and everything. The price is around €200.

PLEASE let me know if I can be of service and I mean it.

I can learn if it's possible to send parts to overseas to EU. If you personally land to capital here, know that you have a friend here. I can take you from the airport and we can go anywhere you want. I promised you a beer remember?  There are three large industrial sites for cars here and I know many parts stores for our cars.

8 minutes ago, R_Blue said:

had to carry parts with bicycle. (I live on top of a hill

Lungs 💯

 

8 minutes ago, R_Blue said:

PLEASE let me know if I can be of service and I mean it.

I can learn if it's possible to send parts to overseas to EU. If you personally land to capital here, know that you have a friend here. I can take you from the airport and we can go anywhere you want. I promised you a beer remember?  There are three large industrial sites for cars here and I know many parts stores for our cars.

Well people say showing gratitude but that's beyond that. 

Many many million thanks. 

As far as the liners are concerned I am going to remove the battery put the car in neutral tap the head before pulling up. Everything is going to be fine. 

And of course, what you said applies vice versa. 

Edited 12 January, 20224 yr by Thefeliciahacker

I am very inexperience in this (like you?) but from the little experience I have I would just say, take your time and be clean with your preparations and the work.  Drain all the coolant, it needs replacing anyway, don't forget to drain and/or full block off your heater as it's at highest level.

 

No doubt you have researched the best advice on retorquing the head and what to use, if anything, with the particular Payen HG you have bought.

 

Better to check three times rather than twice that you have reconnected everything correctly and tightly before refilling coolant and engine starting.

 

Once you have started and stopped the engine from the work, check for leaks and again tightness of connections and do the same again after the first proper road run,  Then forget about it.

 

Good luck, take your time, never worry about how quickly anyone else says they can do the job as often they exaggerate and/or being selective or have no real concept of allowing for all the time to do all of the work.

 

22 minutes ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

Well people say showing gratitude but that's beyond that. 

Many many million thanks. 

You are welcome. Every post I submitted, you were there to help me. I won't forget that.

25 minutes ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

As far as the liners are concerned I am going to remove the battery put the car in neutral tap the head before pulling up. Everything is going to be fine. 

I want to add more details about the work I've done here:

 

- Plan and prepare both your tools and parts you need. If you don't have a private garage like me, the need to pack up everything in the middle of the job is very frustrating.

- Protect yourself. Invest in protective hardware. You will never regret this. Especially when trying to loosen some aged bolt and nuts, they might suddenly move and your hands might get hurt. Buy shock and/or cut proof gloves.

- WD40 is a boon to mankind. If there is a stuck bolt or nut, WD40 will help releasing it. Just don't expect immediate result. Spray and leave it for several hours. If still stuck, spray more and continue to wait. WD40 and patience helped me with %90 success with stuck bolts and nuts.

 

- What was the hardest parts of the work?

-- Exhaust manifold to down pipe connection. The nuts on that flange are repeatedly tempered with direct exhaust heat. They were hard to loosen.

-- Breaking the seal between head and block. I just did as you described above. Tapped the head before pulling but it just didn't give up. The exhaust manifold was still on the head so I used another technique. I placed myself in front of the car and hugged the engine from front. Grabbed the far side of the exhaust manifold with both hands with my arms resting on the engine. Using the exhaust manifold as a leverage, I started to rock the engine back and forth gently. I didn't lift it at this stage. Contrarily, I applied some pressure on the head with my arms. When making the rocking movement, I tried to keep one edge always pushing downwards. This technique worked and HG seal was broken. Then, slowly and carefully I lifted the head with a helper. You can do it yourself but you will find that the exhaust manifold is quite heavy.

-- Deciding what to do with the head surface? Should I resurface it or just put a new gasket in and continue?

You are the original owner of the car. You mentioned having the original clutch still going strong after 140.000Km. I presume that your engine is "untouched" too. I remember reading somewhere head gaskets are not long lived parts in these engines. Correct me if I'm wrong but I remember correctly, they need to be changed every 60.000Km's. So your your head gasket may be at end of it's natural life rather than being damaged by other means. If you find your head surface heavily pitted. I advise making the skimming. Other parts inside the head are of course the valve oil seals. I'd say, plan a visit to an engine head specialist. Let them measure the surface. They do it using a long straight  edge and feeler blades. If it's good let them change the valve seals. So your visit will be more meaningful. They also have special cleaning machines. They can make head look like brand new. Both internally and externally. My visit to the engine head specialist was worth every penny.

-- Rusted bolts' residue. It was a time consuming job to clean the bolt threads using a home made thread chaser but I did this without power tools. If you face the same problem, use an electric screw driver. That will fasten the job like 5x.

-- Torquing the bolts with wrong tools.

Torquing the bolts is easy with proper tools. You'll need a torque wrench and a huge as5 long solid socket wrench. I did this job with a 230Nm capacity big torque wrench which is 50cm long. 50cm leverage for the final stage of angle torquing is the bottom limit. You will need Herculean strength to turn the final angles. You don't need a huge torque wrench at all. Being able to adjust 20nm in the first stage is all you need. I also don't advise using any torque wrench to make the final angle torques. Just buy a 60cm long solid socket wrench. (By solid I mean, without any mechanism) These kind of wrenches are dirt cheap and save your expensive torque wrench from possible damage.)

 

- When assembling, it is possible to mount the head on the engine with both manifolds attached. I did like this to save time but in the end it just complicated the work and cost me more time.

Install and secure the head alone on the block. Then, install the exhaust manifold. Some users say, if their conditions are good, head bolts are reusable but I strongly advise buying new nuts for manifolds. They are flanged and have serrated surface to bind the nut. The nuts on the front row of the engine head are also the same type. I used old nuts and they kept loosening. I had exhaust leaks from manifold to head connection also a minor coolant leak happened a week ago from intake manifold to engine head connection. I had to remove the manifolds to redo the work and change the intake/exhaust common gasket. I discovered that, leaks are inevitable with low quality manifold gaskets. Mine was lacking pre-applied red gasket around the intake manifold part.

See the red parts over the gaskets? Some gaskets don't have it. It's soft and sticky. Some kind of pre-applied red gasket.

This time I didn't take any chances. I bought a new combined manifold gasket (like above) and reinforced it with red gasket. I also used exhaust cement around exhaust holes. All liquid seals are applied on both sides as a very thin layer around the holes. After torqued with new nuts, the manifold connections are rock solid now. Exhaust cement dries quickly. You must make the connection quick.

 

Hardest part???

When you finish the job and sit on the driver's seat for the first start. Oh, man. That pressure is intense. But, if everything is went fine, you will feel like a champion!

 

2 hours ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

Everything is going to be fine. 

That's the spirit!

2 hours ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

And of course, what you said applies vise versa. 

I may end up building something like Mr.Bond's Lotus Esprit.

One day you might find a weird looking Škoda Forman in front of your house, covered in sea moss and crabs. I warn you.

40 minutes ago, R_Blue said:

WD40 is a boon to mankind.

WD-40 is not the best penetrating/releasing fluid (or even lubricant) - for rusty fixings perhaps Innotec Deblock Oil XS, or GT-85 which you can use as a good lubricant (it includes PTFE) and much of what WD-40 claims.

 

Good advice about apply a good penetrating/releasing fluid and leaving to soak for as long as possible in advance of starting the work, then first try tightening the fixing a little to break the rust/crud seal before loosening, if it does not work first time just soak, leave, repeat.

 

Best sealant I have found for coolant (and I use a coolant that finds all gaps) is (Hylomar) Hylotyte Red 100, it is semi-hardening so a fixing can be nipped up in situ if there is a small leak or weep.

 

6-sided sockets are better than 12-sided for loosening, ring spanners are good but ratchet (swivel head) ring spanners even better.

 

You can also use a torch behind a straight edge to look for dips on head and block.

 

Innotec Deblock Oil XS -  https://www.innotec.eu/oth/en/products/deblock-oil-xs/p1858

 

GT-85 - https://gt85.co.uk/gt85-original/

 

HYLOTYTE® RED 100 - https://hylomar.com/en/hylotyte-red-100/

 

 

Edited 12 January, 20224 yr by nta16

Any advise on what to do with the rockers.

I am thinking of not removing the rockers, and then installing the pushrods and sliding the head with them already in.

As you can see I have different (the newer style) gaskets, the intake is VIKA (crap couldnt find anything else) and the exhaust is metal original (18euros).

So will se how it goes.

Im also worried bout the thermostat, as after removal, and replacement of the o-ring would seal good again.

56 minutes ago, nta16 said:

HYLOTYTE® RED 100

 

5 hours ago, nta16 said:

WD-40 is not the best penetrating/releasing fluid (or even lubricant) -

It may not be the best but it's widely available here. Like a can of cola, it's just everywhere.

Innotec Deblock Oil XS

GT-85

HYLOTYTE® RED 100

I've just checked and these products seem not available here. 😞

 

5 hours ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

Any advise on what to do with the rockers.

I think you should remove the rocker assembly. It's very easy. If you don't, some of them will end up being loaded on the push rods. This will cause stress on the head which may alter initial torque setting of the head bolts.

I've prepared cardboard sheets prior to work.

When disassembling parts, I punctured the cardboard and pushed the bolts in. (Pictured above) Bolts have different sizes, some of them have washers, some don't. I did the same for push rods too. I even marked spark plugs with a permanent pen.

Bring some zipper bags, small plastic containers with secure lids and a permanent marker pen.  Catalogue your bits while disassembling. If you do this properly, this will speed up your assembly phase and make you confident that you didn't miss anything. Also if you need to stop the work and pack things up from the street to the house, this will speed up the process.

Another important tip that helped me much: take pictures of everything before starting to work. When you complete mounting the head and manifolds, you'll be playing twister with different types of hoses and also cables. You will know where to connect each one, that's easy but sometimes you forget the exact original route of each hose and how they cross over each other. You will find yourself thinking like: - Was this gasoline line passing over the LPG hose here or was it passing under? Having pictures helped me a lot.

 

I also forget to ask. In your video the engine idle sounds normal to me but tachometer inside shows a little low. Like 500rpm. Is that really idling low or the tachometer is slightly inaccurate?

 

Also do you have Ford Cargo trucks roaming your streets? I mean is it a common truck in where you live?

7 hours ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

Im also worried bout the thermostat, as after removal, and replacement of the o-ring would seal good again.

If the o-ring is not part of the set of gaskets you could do a good full visual inspection with magnifying glass and reuse, perhaps with a spray of silicone or GT-85, or smear of silicone grease.  Or (if?) the o-ring is removeable just replace it.

 

Edited 12 January, 20224 yr by nta16