Cambelt gone

[ApertureS]

13 hours ago, roottoot said:

 

They put the Cambelt @ 5 years / 50,000 miles. Intending that as what comes soonest.  

Just as Wet Clutch DSG's will be at 40,000 miles if that is before 4 years has passed,

 

 

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/399720-octavia-iii-2015-16-tdi-cam-belt-intervals

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/408046-16tdi-4years-80000-miles-should-i-change-my-cambelt

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/329316-16-tdi-update-timing-belt-every-5-years

 

I think you are reading the chart wrong, the lower bits arent on the same time scales as above, they could be on one or the other. DSG oil is definetely not 4 years, only a time marker on it.

[Patent]

I'm bored of seeing threads with that blue Skoda 2021 price list because it means nothing, it's a menu for out of warranty customers to get them in the door, nothing else. I think it was originally perfected by Mini and is now aped by others.

 

OP is in a kicker of a situation - unfortunately I think they will struggle with a goodwill repair - the good (?) news is that a replacement engine should be relatively easy to source. I'm not familiar with these engines. Do they just bend valves or is there likely be any other damage?

[Ootohere]

@ApertureS  I think i am not reading it wrong.

I know and have never suggested the DSG Service is at 4 years & post exactly that almost weekly in threads.

I posted this morning this morning to the member that asked just after the post you linked. 

 

@Patent

If people stop coming to the forum for the first time or asking about Services and Servicing or Recommendations on Servicing and maintenance then there will be no requirement to show what Skoda give as a sort of guide to Fixed Servicing.

If people get Ask Skoda or Skoda Approved Repairers rather than on a forum then they will get an answer from Skoda.  No point asking VW.

 

 

Edited 4 February, 2022 by roottoot

[Patent]

@roottoot thanks for taking it in good humour 🙂

We both know the information flow from Skoda won't get any better.

(They don't mention the 18 month service interval on sunroofs for a start)

 

We're going to get more of these issues cropping up, so would be good to know from the OP if the garage can determine cause of failure to act as a heads up for other 1.6TDI owners.

[ApertureS]

54 minutes ago, roottoot said:

@ApertureS  I think i am not reading it wrong.

I know and have never suggested the DSG Service is at 4 years & post exactly that almost weekly in threads.

I posted this morning this morning to the member that asked just after the post you linked. 

 

@Patent

If people stop coming to the forum for the first time or asking about Services and Servicing or Recommendations on Servicing and maintenance then there will be no requirement to show what Skoda give as a sort of guide to Fixed Servicing.

If people get Ask Skoda or Skoda Approved Repairers rather than on a forum then they will get an answer from Skoda.  No point asking VW.

 

 

Its not an issue, but the only 'true' source is the owners manual and vehicle spec, not a dumbed down sales spreadsheet for every car, seen as every engine and model has different routines. Also depending on climate can effect some countries. 
Im gonna try and find the true values for the question we are all bouncing back and forth on

[Ootohere]

@ApertureSIt is an Issue that the 'Owners Manual' will not tell an Owner with a DQ200 DSG that their box does not have a Schedule for oil changes but Service Desk staff or Sales Staff will tell some their cars DSG is due at 40,000 miles and this has been for over a decade now. 

These are people who are working in a Skoda Dealership maybe 5-7 days a week but might have only just started that month or been there for years.

 

It is scary when you spend any time in the presence of staff at Service Desks in Main Dealerships the crap you hear,

[MarkyG82]

Consumers also need to understand the definition of full dealer service history. Just means that all the work carried out was at a dealer. Does not necessarily mean the correct work was carried out.

[aerofurb]

As has been said by others - a price list is simply that, a list of prices. It is not the maintenance schedule.

 

It is unlikely the cambelt 'failed' all by itself, far more likely that something else was involved - tensioner water pump, contamination. An inspection will soon provide that information.

 

The only place you can find the definitive maintenance schedule is to look at the Skoda workshop manual for that specific model and by year and geographical location. Even with that definitive information, the national importer will often put their own slant on what they think the service intervals should be for specific components. Haldex service requirements is a prime example of this. And then the dealers try it on as well - funnily enough, normally in their favour.

 

I checked the service intervals for both my previous Skodas, a Yeti and Citigo. It turned out that the diesel fuel filter on the Yeti had been replaced 3 times by main dealers in the 90,000 miles I owned it, when the official replacement interval was 56,000 miles.

 

On the Citigo, Marshalls MK tried to convince me that as the car was 4 years old (20,000 miles) the cambelt was due replacement. I pointed out that on the Citigo, the workshop manual called for an inspection at 240,000 km (150,000 miles) and then every 30,000 km (18,750 miles) - no replacement time specified and no calendar based inspection requirement. Even worse, they agreed it was a difficult task to replace the belt as the engine mount passed through the cambelt run and that had to be removed to change the belt. The cambelt cover top half was removeable in 3 minutes to allow the inspection. I've no idea how many poor Citigo owners were fleeced by dealers replacing cambelts against the workshop manual 'requirements'. 

 

Suffice to say, when I was looking to trade in the Yeti and Citigo for a Superb iV, I never bothered going to see Marshalls MK....

[Gomezz]

16 hours ago, roottoot said:

@ApertureSIt is an Issue that the 'Owners Manual' will not tell an Owner with a DQ200 DSG that their box does not have a Schedule for oil changes but Service Desk staff or Sales Staff will tell some their cars DSG is due at 40,000 miles and this has been for over a decade now. 

These are people who are working in a Skoda Dealership maybe 5-7 days a week but might have only just started that month or been there for years.

 

It is scary when you spend any time in the presence of staff at Service Desks in Main Dealerships the crap you hear,

Roottoot, as you know I have been told my 4x4 DSG firstly had a sealed for life box! then a Skoda direct advisor said NO it's 40,000 miles for the oil change. He was getting it contact with my dealer, he then contacted me and said it is due at 80,000 miles for changing?

I went to the dealer and showed him ( the service tech ) the chat transcript and 80,000 text msg. He checked and showed me the screen and sure enough it is for my model due an oil change at 80,000 miles.

Right or wrong I am taking them at their word . I have saved all communication ! I have the warranty and will trust in that.

Skoda are experts in confusion.

[Donweather]

All of this discussion has me a little concerned now about Skodas motives behind not providing service log books with their new cars anymore. Is this a tactic to enable them to void their warranty especially for those of us who choose not to use the stealer servicing department for our new cars. 
 

so with that said does anyone have any ideas where I can get a Skoda service logbook?  Dealer won’t give me one. 

[Ootohere]

You could look on Ebay.

You can get Blank Service Books which you can ask people servicing to fill in.

They were commonly used by people to make up false Service Records for vehicles.

 

But then a Service Book for cars pre 2014 is not much use for looking at what each service shows for a car after that of a different generation.

Things like at the 5th Service on fixed regime replace the Alarm Siren tends not to be done. 

 

Best pay your money and get the information from online for your cars servicing schedule or recommendations / guidelines.

 

 

 

Edited 6 February, 2022 by roottoot

[ApertureS]

4 hours ago, Donweather said:

All of this discussion has me a little concerned now about Skodas motives behind not providing service log books with their new cars anymore. Is this a tactic to enable them to void their warranty especially for those of us who choose not to use the stealer servicing department for our new cars. 
 

so with that said does anyone have any ideas where I can get a Skoda service logbook?  Dealer won’t give me one. 

A service book is just a fancy bit of paper to lay out what work has been done in a pretty format. This can be filled out by anyone and is not a true record. Invoices are the only true and accepted record of servicing as it includes who and what has been done exactly.

Also, any garage can subscribe to fill out the online service history for VAG group, its not a hidden secret really. 

[Gerrycan]

I know that Briskoda membership is just a small sample of Skoda owners, and I don't follow every thread for every model, but I don't remember any reported diesel cambelt failure since I joined in 2014. Can't remember a report for a petrol either so it seems it is not that common, other than @xman's diesel street encounter that is.

Unlike say.... water pump failures which are a dime a dozen.

Then again the common advice regarding diesel water pump failures is to get the timing belt on the same side of the engine changed at the same time to reduce labour costs?

Wonder if the service history for the OP's car has the water pump changed?

Edited 6 February, 2022 by Gerrycan

[801802971]

Can I say that I have read all the good responses on this thread and I am now totally confused.  I have a five year,  2.0 petrol Superb which will have just done over 50K when the service is due in a couple of months time and I have no idea whether I should get the Cam Belt changed or not!!!!!!!!

 

I get the servicing done by my local garage who has serviced all my cars for the last 30 years and I know he has a computer program that tells him what needs done, when but I do check with him that certain things are done. The last service he changed the DSG Oil as I had done just over 40K.  

 

Is there anyone on the forum able to tell me if I should get the belt changed or not.  I suspect Skoda are vague on the subject deliberately

[langers2k]

9 minutes ago, 801802971 said:

I have a five year,  2.0 petrol Superb which will have just done over 50K when the service is due in a couple of months time and I have no idea whether I should get the Cam Belt changed or not!!!!!!!!

 

Pretty sure that'll be a EA888 Gen3 engine which has a timing chain rather than a cambelt. AFAIK, that should last the 'lifetime' of the engine so shouldn't need changing...

[801802971]

Thank you Langers2K, I feel a bit silly now as I should have checked. Thank you for the prompt reply. To all the people who have drive belts, you have my sympathies as you must all be as confused as I was.

 

[Derbyshirebod]

On 03/02/2022 at 18:32, Easytiger333 said:

Hi

 

I've got a 2018 Superb 1.6 SE L Greenline Tdi which has done 65k miles. The cambelt has gone and needs an engine rebuild. 

 

I am aware the cambelt should be replaced at 5 years and I've been told it should last 145K miles. My car hasn't reached either of these. 

 

Skoda UK has rejected our claim for a goodwill repair as we are over 60k miles regardless of that fact they have clearly fitted a faulty part. 

 

Has this happened to anyone else? Has anyone been successful in getting a goodwill repair put of Skoda? 

 

Any help and advice is welcome. 

Well I think you've been most unlucky though are you 100% certain that the engine is actually goosed?? Has it been properly inspected? Maybe not all is lost? As others have mentioned the reasons for so called cam belt failure can be many and varied. I'm surprised that no one else appears to have suggested that this might be salvageable for the cost of a replacement timing belt? If there has been no valve to piston contact? Then re-timing the engine and fitting a new timing belt with the other associated parts it's going to run again! That's a much less bitter pill to swallow. I don't think you're likely to get much joy getting it repaired FOC from where you bought it?

 

It doesn't matter how often you have your car serviced oil & filters, brake pads, tyres etc changed none of that impacts on how long a cam belt will last! As others have said the reasons for a timing belt failing are numerous so to say the "timing belt has gone" doesn't really explain what's happened and it might no be as catastrophic as a side of the road diagnosis initially suggests. 

 

Twice in the last 5 years I've had VW TDi engine powered Seats come to a grinding halt due to a failure of the timing belt system and luckily in both instances the engine timing had only jumped far enough to stop the engine running but not gone far enough to let the valves collide with the pistons. One was a Seat Toledo 1.9 TDi PD engine the water pump bearing failed allowing the timing belt to become slack and jump several teeth until the engine lost it's timing and stopped running but didn't go far enough to allow the valves to collide with the pistons. The other was a Seat Ibiza 1.4 TDi PD I bought with around 100,000 miles IIRC I changed the cam belt on getting the car ran it for about 18 months before giving it to my son about 2 years later he broke down with cam belt failure. When I took the top cam belt cover off I could see the belt was about half the width it should be and it's edges all frayed. On removing the lower cam belt cover I found the cam belt tensioner outer plastic pulley had become un-bonded was loose on the metal inner pulley! The tensioner outer plastic pulley had been moving from side to side and had trepanned a hole in the cover! and allowed the belt to wear on either side until it must have become jammed and ripping off around 16 teeth off the belt! As I carefully turned the engine by hand to set the cam shaft and crank shaft back to their TDC settings. I'd not moved the engine very far maybe only another 3 or 4 belt teeth I started to feel some resistance as the valves and pistons started to come into contact! So I backed the crank shaft off, at this point I realised that there was a good chance there was no engine damage. For some reason I'd kept the old cam belt and tensioner which was a completely metal roller and a safer design IMO. With the engine re-timed and the old belt and tensioner re-installed the engine fired up straight away and ran like nothing had ever happened. So I went and bought a new cam belt kit for the car. I'd never buy another timing belt kit with a plastic bonded outer tensioner wheel and since then I've read of other people having the same issue.

 

I personally believe that it's not just Skoda who has some ridiculously high service intervals especially for cam belts. I think it's just a sales ploy to make servicing costs look attractively low and indeed many cars will go on to do galactic mileages with few problems. From my own personal experience more than around 70,000 miles or 4 years I think you're running on borrowed time. I personally think that removing the upper cam belt cover for a visual inspection is a waste of time! You really can't see anything unless the belt is contaminated with oil or fuel or visibly damaged. Though how many mechanics would actually turn an engine over by hand two full engine cycles to check the full circumference of the timing belt? And it would have to be done by two people, one turning the engine over and the other checking the timing belt as it moves by Generally cracking occurs on the inside teeth side of the. I've seen a cam belt that literally pulled in two with no apparent reason? No seized water pump or rollers. I'll hear someone say ooh it was probably a low quality belt. As far as I'm aware there are only 4 factories globally who can produce cam belts so I assume that the quality are probably much of a muchness? And they will all be making belts for the major manufacturers. I'm not aware that there has been any revolutionary advancements in timing belt design or manufacture? Cam belts don't last forever they wear out and have rubber in them which means they age with heat and light. Though yes I concede there probably are cam belt kits out there with low quality rollers, tensioners, water pumps so it doesn't matter how good the condition of the cam belt is if one of these other components fail. It's usually considered good practice to change all these parts when the cam belt is changed. 

 

I bought a high mileage 2012 Superb MK2 last September with 181,000 on the clock. The service record wasn't complete but did show what must have been its 1st cam belt change in September 2017 when it was 5 years old with a mileage of 107,433. So it had been changed as per Skoda's suggested service interval of 5 years or 145,000 miles which ever comes 1st. So by that reckoning the next cam belt change interval was a year away and should have been September 2022. For the sakes of £70 I bought a Gates cam belt and water pump kit and changed it. All the old parts appeared to be in good condition no noticeable noise or play in any of the rollers or water pump and the VW logo was still just visible on the cam belt. Some of you might argue that they'd save their money and they'd expect a cam belt to last to the manufactures suggested service interval. Okay that's your choice but what will you have saved if the cam belt does fail prematurely to the suggested service interval? I'd sooner try and avoid the aggravation of it failing and have some peace of mind

[J.R.]

1 hour ago, Derbyshirebod said:

I personally think that removing the upper cam belt cover for a visual inspection is a waste of time! You really can't see anything unless the belt is contaminated with oil or fuel or visibly damaged. Though how many mechanics would actually turn an engine over by hand two full engine cycles to check the full circumference of the timing belt? And it would have to be done by two people, one turning the engine over and the other checking the timing belt as it moves by Generally cracking occurs on the inside teeth side of the.

 

It's the signs of visible damage (usually on the inside as you say or contamination that you are looking for, if there aren't any then yes, you really can't see anything.

 

I pull my vehicle forward in gear to inspect the belt, the same way I have been rotating engines for 40 years, any mechanic who has ever properly carried out a service on an older vehicle with tappets or back in the day would be quites used to and prepared for it, it is much harder for me now though with a diesel engine and much heavier vehicles.

 

If you had been doing visual inspections on your sons vehicle you would have picked up the belt damage and traced the damaged tensioner pulley.

 

Very encouraging to learn that you have had 2 non catastrophic failures though 👍

[Derbyshirebod]

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

 

If you had been doing visual inspections on your sons vehicle you would have picked up the belt damage and traced the damaged tensioner pulley.

 

Very encouraging to learn that you have had 2 non catastrophic failures though 👍

I had no reason to check it really as I'd changed the cam belt some 3 years earlier when I 1st bought the car. I wasn't excepting the tensioner roller outer to come un-bonded ! though since I've read about this kind of failure of plastic outer rollers bonded to steel inner rollers.

 

 

 

[J.R.]

I agree, it was an observation not a riposte, I check mine regularly because I have gone to 250K before replacement before now so it's condition is important to me.

 

After replacing the belt I continued as I had not changed the tensioner, bearings or waterpump etc, I trust the factory fitted stuff more than aftermarket once it has already covered that sort of mileage without failure.

 

[Derbyshirebod]

20 hours ago, J.R. said:

I agree, it was an observation not a riposte, I check mine regularly because I have gone to 250K before replacement before now so it's condition is important to me.

 

After replacing the belt I continued as I had not changed the tensioner, bearings or waterpump etc, I trust the factory fitted stuff more than aftermarket once it has already covered that sort of mileage without failure.

 

I had changed the roller & tensioner  on the Ibza at the same time so wasn't expecting anything to go wrong ! 😅 Though as you've previously mentioned some none OEM parts are of a questionable quality. Though some none OEM supplied parts are made by the same manufacturers who supply  OEM just not allowed to use the car manufacturers logos or part numbers.

 

I finally found the video of the Seat Toledo 1.9 TDi PD water pump that failed. I'm pretty sure that this water pump is the same or at least very similar as the one I've recently changed on my MK2 Superb? The cam belt is a different length and there are more rollers but the basic engine design is very similar.

 

[Derbyshirebod]

I'd bought this 2004 1.9 TDi 150bhp Seat Toledo with 180,000 on the clock and put a new cam belt kit on it as soon as I got. The kit didn't come with a water pump but the pump seemed fine no play or unusual noises when turned by hand. 

 

Everything was fine until about 250,000. Going home one day I noticed the engine was getting hot and you could smell coolant. Pulled over and could see steam coming from the cam belt cover. I went and bought a container of water from the 1st shop I came to. I should have called the recovery company at that point! Topped the car with water and set of again and a few miles later could hear a horrendous whirring and then a bang and the engine stopped! I later found the bang was a lump of the water pump toothed drive pulley breaking loose and throwing itself into the belt. I guess the pump bearing had started to fail and damaged the water pump seal as the pump shaft gradually turned further out of true making it leak. Eventually the pulley had a lump broken out of it as it jammed against the pump body causing the cam belt to jump several teeth. With the engine timing lost the engine stopped. 

 

On getting home took the engine covers off to find what you can see in the video. Unsure if the engine was badly damaged I went and bought a cheap pattern pump water pump for about £20 IIRC. Reset the engine used the old chewed up belt! The engine started straight away I quickly reved it up once and all was okay. I then went and bought and new timing belt kit fitted it and got another 40,000 miles or so before scrapping the car.

[J.R.]

Excellent, a man after my own heart he who dares wins!!!

 

I bought my MK1 Octavia at 3 years old, used as a chauffeurs car, looked like new but with 188000 miles.

 

I did the cam belt at 250000 (it had never been changed before despite my pal paying for it twice) as I could see the cords becoming exposed at the edges, I then took it up to 325000 miles.

 

A PD cam belt transmits a lot more load.

[Derbyshirebod]

4 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Excellent, a man after my own heart he who dares wins!!!

 

 

 

Giving up isn't something I hate doing with cars ...... It's easier to walk away from a troublesome woman ! 😅  There are times even I know when to quit ! :-)

 

Going back to this threads original subject my Superb MK2 2.0 TDi  CFGB engine cam belt layout in the photo is much different to the Superb MK3  2.0 TDi EA288, DFHA engines?

 

[Ootohere]

@Easytiger333  Any updates if you are watching your thread.

 

This might serve as a warning to anyone that thinks checking at 5 years is pointless but this engine was not even near 5 years old.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/501814-car-goosed