Repair Advice - Kitchen Wall Cabinets

[BigJakk]

Hello Folks,

 

Hoping some DIY gurus might be able to help me out.

 

We have a single kitchen wall cabinet which is fixed to a skimmed plasterboard wall which is dot and dabbed onto the breezeblock of the external wall. Its a typical B&Q type cabinet with the white  brackets in the top corners which then hook onto two metal brackets which are mounted to the wall.

 

Unfortunately, the cabinet has started to pitch forward. It looks as if the metal brackets haven't been mounted to the wall with the correct fixings and all that has happened over time is that as the weight of the cabinet has put stress on the bracket it has levered it back through the plasterboard, obviously damaging the plaster finish..

 

The lads who fitted the kitchen a few years ago are no longer trading (or at lest not under the details i have for them), so i cant get them back to sort it - as the plaster damage is out of sight, I would ideally like to try and sort it myself by making the cabinet fixing secure.

 

One of the lads at work has offered a suggestion. Firstly, removing the brackets and existing fixings. Then getting some long brown masonry plugs and drill into the breezeblock so that the end of the new plugs are level with the surrounding good plaster wall. Next, filling in the area where the plasterboard has been damaged (around the plugs/fixings) with expanding foam to help fix the protruding part of the new plugs and also reinforce the remaining plasterboard to spread the load a bit. Leave for the expanding foam to set and then reattach the brackets and cabinet...

 

Just after a second opinion as to if this is a decent solution or if there is another, better option? Can get some pictures in a bit if it assists.

 

Thanks in advance!

Edited 16 February, 2022 by BigJakk

[john999boy]

Or totally remove the damaged plaster area (and maybe right across the back of the unit) and then attach a suitable piece of timber to which the 'old' unit brackets could screw to. 👍

[BigJakk]

1 hour ago, john999boy said:

Or totally remove the damaged plaster area (and maybe right across the back of the unit) and then attach a suitable piece of timber to which the 'old' unit brackets could screw to. 👍

 

Thanks for the reply, I've attached an image which will hopefully help (ignore the two plugs above each fixing - they clearly didn't measure up right first time when they fitted it!).

 

So basically from what you've described - cut out the section of plaster that I've marked in red, from bracket to bracket, try and get a piece of baton that will sit fairly flush between the breezeblock and the plasterboard then fix that to the breezeblock and attach the brackets to that baton?

 

Cheers

[john999boy]

As the left side is fine I'd leave that alone and just concentrate on the right side. You may also find that the wood could slightly stand off the plaster as the wall unit fastener will have got some adjustment too.

 

However if you can see the faulty fixing holes then it may even be possible to use larger plugs - as long as that wouldn't make the screws too big. Go for the easiest options first......

[skomaz]

I would remove the bracket, get some filler in to replace the broken plaster, trying to get some behind the plasterboard to fill the gap between it and the breeze block, let that all harden off then redrill and fix the bracket with longer screws that go well into the breeze lock with the rawlplugs recessed so they are within the breeze lock, if need be using two in tandem to get the depth. 

 

As a last resort you could also use long frame fixings (had to do that with a bathroom cabinet once in an old house where the original plaster wasnt great and had been skimmed a few times meaning it was too thick for nommal fixings) 

[SurreyJohn]

Use a masonry drill bit (at least 150mm long) and drill the breeze block (will need a hammer drill).  You want the holes in the blocks to be at least 60mm deep.

 

Then refix the plate using longer screws (might need the long window frame screws and plugs).  If the plate won’t pull up tight because too much board has come away then depending on size of hole in board, either fill with a patching plaster, or if hole is very big cut block of wood, drill some holes in it for screws to pass through.  
 

It might be easier to screw the wood block to the breeze block then fix the bracket to the now solidly fixed block (all rather depends on how loose and broken the surrounding plasterboard is, ideally don’t really want to be removing and replacing excess plasterboard.   A securely fixed wooden block needs much smaller hole than a batten.   It would be better to enlarge hole downwards then slide block in as any unpainted back fill will be behind cupboard. If you start making bigger hole above cupboard then it will show.

 

 

 

 

[BigJakk]

Thanks for all the responses guys.

 

I think I've managed to sort that one, however I decided to check the other wall cabinet and have discovered an even bigger headache....

 

The one previously posted above, both fixings were about ready to pull out so I've removed them and cleared away the dead plaster then drilled out for some long plugs and screws then used expanding foam to help glue the plugs into place and fill the void in the plasterboard (on the phtoto, the screws for the right bracket havent been fully tightened). Ive also attached a wooden batten to the outside plasterboard, running between the two fixings done the same with a little bit of MDF profile at the bottom edge of the cabinet, just to help spread the loads top and bottom. I've then run some wall plugs into the adjacent wall to the right and tied that side in there, and the left side to the tall floor standing unit you can just about see in the photo. I don't know if I've gone a bit overkill, but i would like to think it wont droop forward again now!

 

Unfortunately, this discovery made me look at the other wall cabinet on the opposite wall (picture attached). It looks like when they've tried to fit the left most bracket the wall has just crumbled... possibly due to the electric cable that's running behind there. It looks like they've nicked the cable sheathing, but haven't penetrated it, however I need to open that hole up a bit more and check it. They've then just bodged the left side by fixing a couple of flimsy L brackets top and bottom - when i took this one off the wall it was in a worse state than the other one, how it hasn't fallen off I don't know...

 

At the moment, my plan is to move the cabinet about six inches to the right and refix, possibly using corefix fixings

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Corefix-Bracket-Plasterboard-Fixing-Tested/dp/B071G61BQW/ref=asc_df_B071G61BQW/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=223237768057&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=995765202205638226&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007119&hvtargid=pla-425848880102&psc=1

 

These should hopefully prevent a repeat of the problem of the fixings pulling through the plasterboard, however i may also use some expanding filler just to add a bit of packing behind the plaster. I don't really want to drill into that wall too much as there are at least three electric cables running down it, so 'I may just no more nails' a batten and the remaining MDF profile to sit beneath the top/bottom of the cabinet and help spread the load. Then ive just got the existing holes to fill, i'll probably pack the void again with foam filler and use some Gyproc Easifill to smooth the surface finish out... just wondered whether this is a decent shout or theres a better way to sort the problem

 

Thanks again guys 

 

 

[john999boy]

Not too sure what the last photo is but expanding foam is not the right thing to use for securing stuff!

[mac11irl]

i dint think hes using the foam to secure it, just to fill the space so the plasterboard doesnt flex in and split when he tightens the screws. 

 

between this, and the amount of other photos ive seen in the last few years of cabinets and extraction hoods falling off walls in the middle of the night, im really starting to think a majority of "kitchen fitters" shouldnt be trusted to put duplo sets together! why do so many of them constantly use under sized fixings  and clearly ****e drill bits that mangle the holes for a hodgepodge mix bag of different sized plugs...

[SurreyJohn]

You can buy wider plates with 3 holes in most DIY stores, it might help you avoid drilling where there are cables.   Two bigger screws into plugs in brick or block wil work (with other hole empty, use at least 5mm diameter (formerly 10 gauge) wood screws, and for wide cabinets, go to wider 6mm min screws

 

There are also cabinet hanging rails (probably easiest to order on internet), these are basically long versions with multiple holes.   Ideal if you need to avoid areas due to buried pipes or cables.  Cut them to span whole width between cabinet sides, putting in screws where you can.

 

 

Edited 18 February, 2022 by SurreyJohn

[skomaz]

Also be for you drill anything else get a cable detector.  If you get one with an adjustable sensitivity you can plot cable runs pretty accurately and may well be able to drill between the (hopefully vertical) runs to the switch and sockets. 

[BigJakk]

Sorry, yes as Mac11 says, my idea with the foam is to act as some additional support behind the plasterboard to fill in the void between the plaster and the breezeblocks and stop the brackets pulling through the plasterboard as soon as any weight or pressure is put on them as has happened here. I'm not using it as a means of fixing anything as such, however on the bit I've already done, when it has expanded and set it has filled out around where the plugs are protruding out of the breezeblock and has filled the void in up to where the good plaster is... I hope that makes sense!

 

Plan is to do the same on the other wall now, just to pack the void between the plaster and the breezeblock and also build back up the areas that will need filling before going over the top with a filling plaster.. I think part of the issue is that the dot and dab is so sparse that there is nothing to support, however at the same time they haven't used decent fixings which might have helped too (they've also made a balls up of the cabinet itself but I think I've sorted that with some wood glue on the dowels and a couple of assembly joints).

 

The last photo is of the nick they've put in the electric cable... must have snuck in with the other two.

 

Cheers folks

[xman]

Cables normally run down vertically to switches and sockets, so only an idiot would have chosen to put a bracket there. I'm surprised the cable isnt protected by a steel channel, that's been the practice for at least the past 30 years or so.

 

That bottom bracket above the switch is sited in a highly dangerous position, I wouldn't be surprised if the screw is going into the cable there as well.

 

The cable is clearly damaged and would be condemned by any electrician. It is not safe  and should be replaced.

 

Choose another position for screws and brackets well away from any cables.

 

Any wallplugs must go full depth into the brick or breezeblock. A plug that relies even partly on foam or plaster/board for grip will simply pull out with the loads that a loaded wall cabinet will impose. Don't even think about no nails on plaster! Only suitable for lightweight stuff, even then....

Those plasterboard type fixings are also unsuitable here.

 

Screws need to be the correct size for the plug and long enough to reach the end of the plug or beyond, the hole drilled being longer than the plug.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 19 February, 2022 by xman

[PetrolDave]

6 hours ago, xman said:

I'm surprised the cable isnt protected by a steel channel, that's been the practice for at least the past 30 years or so.

... and required by the IEE Wiring Regulations.

 

But, recently had a look at a local new build house at first fix stage on a development by a major house builder, no steel channels on any of the wiring! Seems this requirement is not being enforced.

[mac11irl]

i also have to admit that, despite being a structural engineer i had to look up dot and dab, as its not a technique i ever learned about, and i dont think its one ever used over here. ive never come across it at least, and i cant say i like it.. seems like a fast and cheap way to make a job look done properly... 

 

anyway,  now i understand the wall, yeah.. you need to use a decent long plug and fill the gap from the block the plasterboard for those brackets, otherwaise over time the screws will sag and the load increase wiill pull them out again. 

[xman]

1 hour ago, mac11irl said:

i also have to admit that, despite being a structural engineer i had to look up dot and dab, as its not a technique i ever learned about, and i dont think its one ever used over here. ive never come across it at least, and i cant say i like it.. seems like a fast and cheap way to make a job look done properly... 

 

Thats exactly what it is. Also called dry lining. Loved by some builders because they can throw up plaster board and finish a wall and paint it super quickly. Cheaper and faster but nastier when they just use dabs of plaster an adhesive a better alternative being fixing to proper wooden wall battens. The small gap between board and wall offers insulation advantages but makes attaching anything like a wall cabinet a headache.

[mac11irl]

1 hour ago, xman said:

 

Thats exactly what it is. Also called dry lining. Loved by some builders because they can throw up plaster board and finish a wall and paint it super quickly. Cheaper and faster but nastier when they just use dabs of plaster an adhesive a better alternative being fixing to proper wooden wall battens. The small gap between board and wall offers insulation advantages but makes attaching anything like a wall cabinet a headache.

 

yeah, i have no issue with dry lining,  but use a bloody 2x1 hilti'd to the feckin blockwork! thats how it gets done over here.. and least you know every 600mm you have something solid to attach to..

Edited 19 February, 2022 by mac11irl

[Tilt]

As John says.............. not expanding foam. Not even just to prevent the plasterboard being pulled in. It is not solid enough to prevent proper tightening of the screws pulling the bracket through it again.

 

Do it once......... Do it properly.

 

Expanding foam ffs 

[Tilt]

17 hours ago, mac11irl said:

i dint think hes using the foam to secure it, just to fill the space so the plasterboard doesnt flex in and split when he tightens the screws. 

 

between this, and the amount of other photos ive seen in the last few years of cabinets and extraction hoods falling off walls in the middle of the night, im really starting to think a majority of "kitchen fitters" shouldnt be trusted to put duplo sets together! why do so many of them constantly use under sized fixings  and clearly ****e drill bits that mangle the holes for a hodgepodge mix bag of different sized plugs...

 

I've been a kitchen fitter (of the different variety to the ones you mention mac) for over ten years but have moved into maintenance now.

 

I look after two building along with another bloke (good bit younger than me but surprisingly we agree on most things and get on very well) but one of the buildings in particular, has plaster-boarded walls and the whole buildings fittings have been secured using spiral fixings ffs.

 

This includes stand alone kitchen extractor fans AND even pull out TV brackets. Un f****** believable.

 

Re-fitted an extractor fan just yesterday. I just put some chewing gum in the holes and put the spiral fittings back in, Lol............... 

 

Hadn't got any expanding foam as I had used that up patching up a hole in a fire door. 

[Tilt]

Obvious (to most) tip for drilling for wall plugs..........

 

Start with a small drill bit, then if the plug wont go in, drill next size up............

 

Cos it depends on the material you are drilling into, ie if it is brick or hard material then you will need the hole to match the plug size (ie 7mm for brown plug etc) HOWEVER, if it is softer material you will likely need a smaller drill size for your plug to fit tightly in the hole.

[mac11irl]

i hate those spiral fixings! its so easy to slightly over torque them and either make ****e of the fixing (plastic type) or just make a fixing diameter sized hole in the slab 🤦‍♂️ or worse, weaken the slab without spotting the cracking until its loaded up and then goes crump...

 

@Tilt if you runout of chewing gum double sided tape does a grand job for holding up curtain rails, and doesnt leave an odd minty smell in the room 

 

[john999boy]

@mac11irlThe metal ones are extremely good though - obviously if used correctly.

[J.R.]

I have made thousands of fixings into plasterboard over the last 15 years, for low to medium duty fixings I use a red rawlplug in an undersized 5mm hole (drilled carefully to not be oversize) tapped in with a hammer for higher strength fixings my go to is the plastic spiral fixings with several caveats.

 

I use them when the plasterboard is 13mm and not 10mm and only in the Norme Francaise plasterboard which is denser and has stronger paper, only when the plasterboard is screwed to a metal rail structure at 60cm or 40cm centres.

 

I don't use them as intended by self drilling but make a pilot hole with a bradawl followed by the number 2 pozi screwdriver I will be using for the fixing, they have to be put in with care and with experience you know when you have made a good fixing and when you need to redo the fixing with gun grade dense foam adhesive.

 

Its better to use a number 6 screw than a number 8 screw, if the fixing is unscrewed and the fastener reverses even a few degrees it is foutu, a number 8 screw will not undo without backing out the spiral fixing, a number 6 will.

 

Done correctly into NF plasterboard and above all intelligently (enough fasteners, sensible spacing etc) they are incredibly strong, my pal built a climbing wall and we fitted all the artificial rock handholds using spiral fixings into 13mm NF plasterboard.  The loading on them is in the correct vertical plane, for something like a towel rail I will use them on the lower fixings but use Cheville Molly toggle fixings on the upper ones, they too need to be fitted with great care.

 

I do agree that many kitchen (and bathroom) fitters seem to have been trained in making self destruct fixings, the one who fitted my neighbours hugely expensive designer kitchen used a club hammer to cut all the access holes in the rear of the units for plumbing and drainage!!!

[Tilt]

16 hours ago, mac11irl said:

i hate those spiral fixings! its so easy to slightly over torque them and either make ****e of the fixing (plastic type) or just make a fixing diameter sized hole in the slab 🤦‍♂️ or worse, weaken the slab without spotting the cracking until its loaded up and then goes crump...

 

@Tilt if you runout of chewing gum double sided tape does a grand job for holding up curtain rails, and doesnt leave an odd minty smell in the room 

 

 

Trust me, in some of these (students) rooms, not sure what it is but the 'odd' smell is definitely not minty............... unfortunately, Lol.

[Tilt]

Luckily at least, when the spiral fittings do eventually fall out, the hole that is left is the perfect size for these. Otherwise I would need a PZ4 screwdriver....

 

 

And would always use a setting tool now. I didn't when I first started using them years back but had a few go wrong and then you are in the cra**er, Lol.

 

They are fine for extractor fitting and TV brackets if you have to.

 

Working for Ikea's Installation company for many moons, their extractor fans came supplied with brackets with a bolt through a very fat (10mm) plastic plug, (with a split either side of it) and a metal spreader nut to open the fitting up in the wall or behind the plasterboard.

 

These fixings were brilliant in both situations but I cannot find them anywhere . I still have a few as I saved them if I could just use normal fixings.

Edited 20 February, 2022 by Tilt