UK Public Charger Network & price increases as they are announced. Please post here as you become aware of any changes in the costs.

[Ootohere]

This winter or the first electric shortages should first be requiring energy reduction in London as really for such a big population the energy produced and the need to be using gas to just keep the lights on there is ridiculous. 

Then with heating that needs rationing because really the ambient day and night temperatures compared to much of the rest of the country are  pretty low.

 

Big issue is that ever person with an EV or every EV can not be plugged in every time it is parked or during offpeak times as every vehicle might not be near a charger, maybe just parked near where the people want it.

Also they are not just plugging in at Public Street chargers if they need to pay and many people do not have off road parking and home charging. 

 

So that is for the future if the Westminster Government moves a bit with getting on with things.

Like digging up roads and putting in infrastructure.

 

The electricity that can be generated is not being used much of the time and not stored. 

Wind Farms are paid to not produce electricity and lots of electric generated never gets to the National Grid because the links were not built.

They are being built now. 

 

 

Edited 10 August, 2022 by roottoot

[wyx087]

16 minutes ago, roottoot said:

The electricity that can be generated is not being used much of the time and not stored.

This is the key issue, supply not matched to demand. Need storage for those excesses.

 

Sure not everyone can plug in at every opportunity. But the goal is to have enough "smart" EV's plugged in at all times so that the excess can be stored.

 

This video explains why it's not suitable for home heating, including problem such as gas pipe conversion and efficiency losses. Many of those problems are the same with powering cars if cars were sold as hydrogen vehicle rather than a regular EV with hydrogen FC as occasional range extender.

 

T

[wyx087]

This podcast with Octopus funder goes into much more detail and better explains what I'm trying to say on how stupid it is for national average pricing, or "dumb"  single tariff pricing. How to make renewable electricity cheaper for everyone.

 

 

[cheezemonkhai]

You’re missing the point. Renewables be they large solar or wind are asked to disconnect/stop generating all the time.

 

That is wasted energy that isn’t generated. The generation of hydrogen at source is essentially a huge battery which can be sold as hydrogen or fed into a fuel cell to generate power for the grid when demand is high and sun/wind low.

 

Transmission losses are real, grid upgrade costs are high, millions don’t have parking and plenty can’t afford to extend journey times. 
 

Hydrogen would be an easy swap for fuel with few changes of habit and those without private parking can swap. Where is V2G which has been coming for years but isn’t?

 

If there’s lots of wind in wales, but no demand there, however loads of demand in London you can’t just dump all the power on the local grid in Wales. It needs more interlinks and balancing to keep the grid in spec/tolerance.

Edited 10 August, 2022 by cheezemonkhai

[wyx087]

10 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

You’re missing the point. Renewables be they large solar or wind are asked to disconnect/stop generating all the time.

 

Transmission losses are real, grid upgrade costs are high, millions don’t have parking and plenty can’t afford to extend journey times.

 

If there’s lots of wind in wales, but no demand there, however loads of demand in London you can’t just dump all the power on the local grid in Wales. It needs more interlinks and balancing to keep the grid in spec/tolerance.

The solution to disconnecting/stop renewables due to excess generation is to store it into distributed batteries. Millions can't afford to have off-street parking, then will have to depend on public charging infrastructure. One of larger distributed battery will be at recharge stations.

 

Grid losses are real but it's so far less than losses in hydrogen electrolysis. Until we can have enough incentive to flatten demand throughout the day and power vast majority on renewables, there isn't enough renewables to go around. The aim should be to provide extremely cheap electricity to those who have the ability to be flexible.

 

The interconnect upgrade costs will be pale in comparison to prices we pay to fossil fuel industry. V2G has been delayed due to car manufacturers dragging their heels. Nissan Leaf had V2G in Chademo from early days, but CCS did not have V2G capability until later standard revisions. This translates to cars not having V2G capabilities until very recently appearing as vehicle-2-load.

 

Don't get me wrong, green hydrogen have its place. But not in the next 10 years due to lack of renewables in our energy mix combined with its inefficiency. EV's need to completely replace ICE cars as normal transport, get people used to the idea of ABC (always be charging). Only then hydrogen fuel cell range extenders can come in for very niche car use cases.

[PetrolDave]

1 minute ago, wyx087 said:

The solution to disconnecting/stop renewables due to excess generation is to store it into distributed batteries.

I'd stop that sentence at "to store it...", yes batteries are one option for storage but pumped hydro and creating hydrogen to be stored for later use in a fixed generator is another - there's probably more that others can think of.

 

As in almost everything a "one size fits all" approach is normally not the best way to solve a problem.

[Ootohere]

So with gas being about equal to $300 a barrel while oil is back at about $100 dollars there are oil fired power stations being looked at being fired up to provide energy, 

that will no doubt include Diesel Farms in England that we all pay for to sit there as a contingency. 

 

Strange times as coal, oil and gas and woodchips are going to be generating electricity.

If currently 43% of Electricity is produced from gas for the UK, that will be a lot of gas providing Englands electricity, maybe time that England had the highest tariffs not just because of the price of gas but because of the high emissions. 

[wyx087]

3 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

I'd stop that sentence at "to store it...", yes batteries are one option for storage but pumped hydro and creating hydrogen to be stored for later use in a fixed generator is another - there's probably more that others can think of.

 

As in almost everything a "one size fits all" approach is normally not the best way to solve a problem.

True, but why are we forced to be in a one size fits all approach for electricity prices?

 

I have no problem using other methods for long term cross seasonal storage. This is needed. Though prefer pumped hydro whenever possible because there's no chance of fossil fuel industry and have non-green hydrogen getting involved. it is the idea of using hydrogen for cars that I don't think make any sense what so ever.

[Gmac983]

13 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Grid losses are real but it's so far less than losses in hydrogen electrolysis. Until we can have enough incentive to flatten demand throughout the day and power vast majority on renewables, there isn't enough renewables to go around. The aim should be to provide extremely cheap electricity to those who have the ability to be flexible.

Have you actual figures that demonstrate the differences in loses here? Between green hydrogen produced close to source then distributed via pumping or by shipping or by road as we currently do things to an already existing infrastructure and work force. 
Compared to transmitting electricity one end of the country to the other to be stored in batteries that are not green to produce and worse to recycle and finally distributed to vehicle charging network that doesn’t exist yet.

[Ootohere]

http://thenational.wales/news/20130428.national-grid-pay-customers-200m-trading-electricity-europe

 

 

The National Grid which is not owned by any of the UK,s 4 nations is about transmitting electric and gas around the UK.  Into the UK and out of the UK.  Seemingly only making £20 profit per household.   What it really is is making sure enough electric is available from where ever for England who can not generate enough of their own.  The system seems to be very much about the bigger nation not actually paying more than the other 3 nations who could have energy much cheaper. 

Edited 11 August, 2022 by roottoot

[wyx087]

According to this, after a quick google on hydrogen vs EV efficiency: starting from electricity generation, 38% of input electricity makes it to hydrogen fuel cell car wheels, 80% electricity makes it to BEV wheels. Grid transmission efficiency is 95% while hydrogen assumes 0% transmission loss and electrolysis happens on-site at 75% efficient.

https://theconversation.com/hydrogen-cars-wont-overtake-electric-vehicles-because-theyre-hampered-by-the-laws-of-science-139899

 

Battery are not green to produce compared to ICE car, I agree. But remember hydrogen fuel cell also need some amount of battery.

Over lifetime of vehicle, BEV produce vastly less CO2 than ICE car and hydrogen fuel cell car. For the latter it's simple maths comparing cars that is twice efficient because even renewables have a limited lifetime and embedded carbon. Until we have built a dyson sphere, efficiency is king.

 

On battery end of life in vehicles. They can be re-used in stationary battery packs. For example:

https://www.powervault.co.uk/technical/solar-battery-technology/

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/07/netherlands-football-johan-cruijff-stadium-electric-car-batteries/

 

Reduce: EV efficiency is king.

Re-use: Become stationary batteries

Recycle: 2020 announcement by a Finnish company stated they can recycle 80% of Li-on battery raw materials using a low CO2 process.

https://www.drivingelectric.com/your-questions-answered/840/electric-car-battery-recycling-all-you-need-to-know

 

[Gmac983]

13 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

On battery end of life in vehicles. They can be re-used in stationary battery packs. For example:

but…

In most end of life situations isn’t it the battery pack(s) that are knackered first rather than the vehicle? So battery would have to be recycled rather than re-purposes wouldn’t it?
Also what is the carbon foot print of installing the millions of charging points and storage batteries that would be needed compared to existing filling stations gradually bringing in hydrogen fuel pumps as demand requires along with hydrogen production hubs. Allowing consumers to continue refuelling their cars as they are accustomed to without range anxiety or availability of charge points and charge time limits. Also off grid homes (gas or oil) can use hydrogen to heat their homes (replacing oil or gas) rather than electricity to directly heat their homes.

Another consideration is employment. Which would be the better long term employer? Hydrogen production and distribution or charge point infrastructure and storage batteries?

[wyx087]

39 minutes ago, Gmac983 said:

In most end of life situations isn’t it the battery pack(s) that are knackered first rather than the vehicle? So battery would have to be recycled rather than re-purposes wouldn’t it?

Batteries will not breakdown like an ICE. Only gradually reduce its capability to hold a charge. So when the range is no longer adequate, move it to storage application where range does not matter. It is widely accepted that the BEV powertrain will outlast the car shell. 

 

41 minutes ago, Gmac983 said:

Also what is the carbon foot print of installing the millions of charging points and storage batteries that would be needed compared to existing filling stations gradually bringing in hydrogen fuel pumps as demand requires along with hydrogen production hubs. Allowing consumers to continue refuelling their cars as they are accustomed to without range anxiety or availability of charge points and charge time limits. Also off grid homes (gas or oil) can use hydrogen to heat their homes (replacing oil or gas) rather than electricity to directly heat their homes.

Sorry, the carbon footprint question will be difficult to answer. On one hand you produce slightly more CO2 when producing new stationary batteries (would be better if repurpose old batteries), but on the other hand, you drive 50% less for every unit of input electricity. 

 

No, we cannot allow consumers to continue the same refuel as current cars. It simply does not make any sense to use EV like fossil fuel cars. Always be charging then there wouldn't be any range anxiety. Range anxiety does not exist once you get to know the EV, it's a term dreamt up by uninformed journalists. 

 

For off-grid homes, it makes even more sense for their own solar/wind and battery. There wouldn't be any need for transport. Efficiency of heat pump is vastly more efficient than hydrogen will ever be. 

 

For employment, just like ICE cars, of course a high maintenance system will provide more long term employment. But I would argue a lower maintenance system will demand higher skilled workers and generate far greater value in the economy. 

[Ootohere]

It is easily summed up when it is said that a mix of energy sources are required and that transportation of goods including vessels, agricultural and heavy plant and industry will require hydrogen. 

Any one can become skilled to work with training if they are keen and there are those to train them.

So we know all the new tech there is and all those leaving school that need jobs so time will tell if better to teach them young rather than teaching old dogs new tricks.

 

This is the UK so there is lots of talking and little action. 

[wyx087]

Yes, it's always going to require a mix of energy sources. 

 

The important thing is to use most efficient method whenever possible and hydrogen must come from electrolysis, not fossil fuel. 

 

[Ootohere]

As it is the plan is to stop the sale of new  ICE cars in the not distant future, so there is lots needing done in that time.

 

Like a Motor Trade journal had an article only yesterday. 

Salespeople need to learn about EV's, not just here is an EV do you want one?   They need to know about charging, range and not just driving their company car / demonstrator and charging it at work. 

 

Quicker than the increase of the sales of EV cars is the purchase of EV Vans and the sales people are again pretty clueless as are many buyers. 

 

Then Techs for cars, charger installations, hub installs, and much more.

http://dailyrecord.co.uk/lifestyle/motoring/ev-technologists-are-in-demand-27350902

 

Edited 11 August, 2022 by roottoot

[Gmac983]

3 hours ago, wyx087 said:

For off-grid homes, it makes even more sense for their own solar/wind and battery. There wouldn't be any need for transport. Efficiency of heat pump is vastly more efficient than hydrogen will ever be. 

Heat pumps are well documented as being inadequate to heat homes in cooler climates(i.e not the south of England). Also very expensive to run in electric. Local authorities are forcing air source down tennants throats who now cannot afford to heat their homes sufficiently. When I use the term “off-grid” I am referring to homes not on mains gas rather than the American take on the term “off-gridders”. So many towns villages come under this umbrella so cannot have personal wind turbines to supply their electric. Solar is not affordable for many. And going back to heat source, it is grossly impractical to fit a some what efficient system to an existing/old property. Fine to do in new builds.

Edited 11 August, 2022 by Gmac983

[wyx087]

23 minutes ago, Gmac983 said:

Heat pumps are well documented as being inadequate to heat homes in cooler climates(i.e not the south of England). Also very expensive to run in electric. Local authorities are forcing air source down tennants throats who now cannot afford to heat their homes sufficiently. When I use the term “off-grid” I am referring to homes not on mains gas rather than the American take on the term “off-gridders”. So many towns villages come under this umbrella so cannot have personal wind turbines to supply their electric. Solar is not affordable for many. And going back to heat source, it is grossly impractical to fit a some what efficient system to an existing/old property. Fine to do in new builds.

This comes back to insulation. As government sits down to discuss what to do to help with energy crisis, the best thing they can do this winter is to provide support for people to insulate homes as much as physically possible, especially old buildings. This happens to be the starting point for heat pump adoption.

 

Heat pumps are quickly becoming less expensive to run. Here's a worked example:

- A given house need 100 kWh of energy input per day to keep warm. (quite leaky)

- A 95% efficient condensing gas boiler will use 105 kWh of energy, which at current 7.37p/kWh gas price means £7.74.

- A heat pump operates at 3-5x SCOP depending on requested flow temperature, let's say worst case 3x efficiency. That means this house need 33.3 kWh of electricity energy to keep warm. This translates to £9.99 at 30p/kWh.

- Add a 10 kWh home battery, solar and cheap off-peak tariff, you will be looking at around half of the 33 kWh on cheaper 7.5p/kWh tariff (daytime 35p/kWh, my Octopus Go tariff, locked in for 1 year). Meaning cost for the same day's heating is £7.01.

 

Come October and January, I'm sure gas unit price will jump up more than electricity price; whilst off-peak electricity price will not change much, if at all.

 

The better insulated the house, the lower heat pump flow temperature. The lower flow temperature the higher heat pump efficiency and the less it costs to run. Insulation and get thicker radiators are two of the easiest thing to do as preparation for heat pump.

(Now that I've conquered EV knowledge, I'm currently learning about heat pumps in my spare time in preparation for installing in my house. After house battery)

 

I'm not sure where you got your info that heat pump are not suitable for northern parts of the country. Norway has the highest heat pump per-capita install of any European country.

https://reasonstobecheerful.world/heat-pumps-norway-efficiency-emissions/

[Breezy_Pete]

Could be informative to get @Aspman's latest thoughts on his heat pump installation as unit prices are heading skywards.

[Gmac983]

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

I'm not sure where you got your info that heat pump are not suitable for northern parts of the country. Norway has the highest heat pump per-capita install of any European country.

From people who actually have them and now wish they didn’t.

Also I would imagine that Norwegian houses are a tad or 3 better insulated than uk housing. 

Edited 11 August, 2022 by Gmac983

[Gmac983]

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

and get thicker radiators

Is smaller bore pipe work not a requirement of this also? Is underfloor heating not widely accepted as the best use of a heat pumps?

[wyx087]

6 minutes ago, Gmac983 said:

From people who actually have them and now wish they didn’t.

Also I would imagine that Norwegian houses are a tad or 3 better insulated than uk housing. 

Then those heat pump system had been installed poorly or hasn't been set up correctly with flow temperatures. 

 

Insulation, insulation, insulation. That's what I'm saying all the time. It's the easiest money saver in short term and the most important prerequisite for heat pump. 

 

1 minute ago, Gmac983 said:

Is smaller bore pipe work not a requirement of this also? Is underfloor heating not widely accepted as the best use of a heat pumps?

I don't think so. Most heat pump shouldn't require major re-piping. At least not in semi-modern houses like my one. Underfloor heating is ideal but not a must for heat pumps. 

[Gmac983]

@wyx087

I don’t won’t seem negative about heat pumps as there some success stories out there. Would just like to hear of some more happy customers rather than all the negative ones I am aware off. My parents are currently weighing up there options on this as are currently off grid gas and have solar installed already. Also it is something my wife and I are looking aswell but do not want to make the level of investment currently require for this on a home we will not likely stay in for the rest of our lives. 

[lol-lol]

9 minutes ago, Gmac983 said:

@wyx087

I don’t won’t seem negative about heat pumps as there some success stories out there. Would just like to hear of some more happy customers rather than all the negative ones I am aware off. My parents are currently weighing up there options on this as are currently off grid gas and have solar installed already. Also it is something my wife and I are looking aswell but do not want to make the level of investment currently require for this on a home we will not likely stay in for the rest of our lives. 

 

My brother's new build with Heat Pump seems to be very good though he has not done the cold winter yet but as it was purpose built ie underfloor heating down stairs and large diameter flow pipe and big radiators upstairs I think it was just one bedroom that was not as warm as it should be and radiator (mis named as they are really convectors) fans to help get the heat round the room I reckon. 

 

Perhaps paint the radiator (convectors) matt black in honour of Stephan Boltzman.   

 

Formula

 

	=	black-body radiant emittance
	=	Stefan-Boltzmann constant
	=	thermodynamic temperature

 

Stefan-Boltzmann law states that the amount of radiation emitted by a black body per unit area is directly proportional to the fourth power of the temperature.

According to the Stefan-Boltzmann law, σ has a value of 5.670374419 × 10⁻⁸ watt per square meter per kelvin to the fourth (W / (m² x K⁴).

Edited 11 August, 2022 by lol-lol

[Ootohere]

Scotland's highest polluters 2019.

Power stations and oil refineries and others.    Oil & Gas 

http://www.theferret.scot/dirty-dozen-companies-pollute-scotland

 

http://www.mossmorran.org.uk/2022/04/listed-scotlands-20-biggest-climate-polluters-revealed-auto-republish

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 11 August, 2022 by roottoot