Subaru rival (Haldex and general skoda modding advice)

[Reeky]

Hello all, Im new here (although I did have a thread a whle back about fabias)

So, I recently bought a Subaru Legacy R Spec.B 3.0 H6 manual estate (Stick with me here, Skoda question to come)

Its great, except for 2 things; Parts are very expensive (e.g. £500 for a starter motor) and its getting not much more than 20mpg, which I could live with when I bought it, but not anymore with petrol prices etc etc bla bla bla (Its not like you hadnt noticed....)

So, Im looking at my options. Subaru made a diesel legacy, but its got a reputation for breaking in a very expensive way (crankshaft snapping) and so that leaves me looking at Skoda for my AWD manual estate fix...

Now, Ive got 3 options for engines, correct? The 1.9TDi PD105, and the 2.0TDI as either PD140 or CR140, so put simply, which is best?

My subaru makes 245bhp (180kw) as standard, and weighs 1500kg (about 100kg less than a skoda) and I was planing a fancy exhaust and a remap to 280ish. How much can I get from a 4x4 octavia without breaking the bank? What needs doing? Ive got my "best guess list" - intercooler, turbo, remap, exhaust, injectors, and then stuff like clutch and flywheel? How much power is realistic to expect? Also, Ive heard lots of contradicting information, had it got a DPF?

Im not expecting to keep up with the subaru, but similar performance and half the fuel cost does sound very tempting!

Thanks in advance for any replies!

Edited 17 November, 2022 by cheezemonkhai

[skomaz]

Depends what you are looking for but the 2.0 PD in the Mkii Octavia 4x4 was a development of the 1.9PD - one of the most reliable engines you can get.  It's only 8 valve and has a DPF in the 4x4 and Scout but the DPF can be removed and it can easily be mapped to about 185bhp on a Stage 1 and more on a Stage 2.

 

We had one for 14 years and it was pretty much bulletproof apart from needing a turbo to intercoooler hose every 7 years.

[PetrolDave]

52 minutes ago, skomaz said:

the DPF can be removed

... but if you do remove it then if an MOT tester spots it then that's an MOT fail as any car originally fitted with a DPF must have one (or what looks like one!) when presented for an MOT.

[skomaz]

1 minute ago, PetrolDave said:

... but if you do remove it then if an MOT tester spots it then that's an MOT fail as any car originally fitted with a DPF must have one (or what looks like one!) when presented for an MOT.

 

Correct - but an early 4x4 or Scout with a PD engine is EU4 and will pass an MOT without one.  It is a risk but, bearing in mind that the 4x4 drivetrain and undertrays such as the rough road package make the DPF very difficult to see, the chances of it being identified as cut and gutted are very minimal.

[Reeky]

So, is it illegal, or just an MoT fail? Can I just put a 2wd exhaust in place of the DPF (midpipe, downpipe, wherever it is)

Stage 1,2,3,4,5,6,7...,98,99,100,101, - what do all these mean? Whats the most power I can push without needing to pull the engine apart?

From what I'm learing, the PD140 sounds like the best option? That comes with a 2nd generation of Haldex, correct?

[Ootohere]

@Reeky

What is the budget to buy and how much to modify?

 

Have you looked in the Briskoda for sale section?

 

Not only are you not keeping up with the Subaru you are going for a car with Haldex and a 30,000 mile / 3 year service interval on that.

First thing is find a good car that the Haldex is all well with. 

 

Best just go find a car already quick enough and with AWD / Part time AWD in good condition. 

[Reeky]

Okay, budget depends on if I like it enough to sell the subaru.....

Ive had a look in the for sale sectrion, didnt see much?

There is a decent pd140 scout Ive found, 110k miles, skoda service history up to 96k. Its brown, so not my first choice, but I understand its a case of compromising, and just taking what you can get.

Any suggestions for a quick enough car? The only reason the subaru isnt working for me is because it costs 45p/mile in petrol!

[Ootohere]

A Skoda Service History up to 96,000 miles means nothing.

That might be 4 Oil & Filter changes and a look see and a free wash and vacuum. 

 

It is what was done that matters, was it annual or bi-annual services, extras done, brake fluid. fuel filter, air filter, water pump etc etc 

You want a history of service and maintenance.

 

An Independent Specialist that services the Haldex properly is more important than a Main Dealership that may not have.

 

Sorry no particular suggestions for a quick car other than the ones that people are scared to buy so are not at stupid Asking Prices and that some dealer needs to get shot of.

 

 

Edited 30 June, 2022 by roottoot

[EnterName]

On 30/06/2022 at 14:28, Reeky said:

There is a decent pd140 scout Ive found, 110k miles, skoda service history up to 96k. Its brown, so not my first choice, but I understand its a case of compromising, and just taking what you can get.

Unpopular colours are a great way of getting a used car bargain, as people really are reluctant to buy them, so the price often needs to be adjusted to make them more attractive to buyers.

(Of course, you have to be able to live with a car colour you don't much care for.)

IMO, if you're buying new, pick a popular colour to get the best resale value.

If buying used, buy an unpopular colour to get the best deal.

[AnnoyingPentium]

7 hours ago, EnterName said:

Unpopular colours are a great way of getting a used car bargain, as people really are reluctant to buy them, so the price often needs to be adjusted to make them more attractive to buyers.

(Of course, you have to be able to live with a car colour you don't much care for.)

IMO, if you're buying new, pick a popular colour to get the best resale value.

If buying used, buy an unpopular colour to get the best deal.

 

This is why Lemon Yellow and Fantasy Green Fabias are cheaper than the rest, usually. Savings can be made if you don't mind driving a bananamobile, or whatever the mint green equivalent.

[Reeky]

Yep, I can live with a brown car, but the seller has decided to keep it, sadly.

Im looking at my options, what are the significant differences between facelift and pre-facelift 1.9 4x4s? And haldex 2 vs haldex 4, whats the difference? 

From what Ive read, if I break my pd105, its quite easy to put a pd130 in its place?

Thanks!

[Reeky]

Another question about octavias, which components are different between the VRS and the 4x4? (beyond the obvious Haldex, springs and engine) Brakes? Steering rack? 

Thanks!

[cheezemonkhai]

I’d suggest a short subscription to ekta and printing out the parts list of areas you’re interested in for the 4x4 and the vrs. 
 

The differing part numbers will reveal all 👍

 

FWIW the 4x4 has higher suspension than a vrs and I think the vrs got upgraded brakes but the 4x4 didn’t.

 

[cheezemonkhai]

Edit...

 

I should have added, the CR140 is one of the engines affected by dieselgate (You'll have to check if it's all model of the engine), but as such I'd expect a large discount on these and personally I wouldn't touch one.

 

Having run a PD140 for a lot of miles, I liked it a lot, but make sure the Dual Mass Flywheel is not noisy when you test drive them. If it is it's a decent bill to replace and you might as well do the clutch whilst it's all out. 

 

If it's a higher mile car at a decent price, that may not be an issue, but just something to be aware of.

[Reeky]

Alright - calling anyone who might know;

How much can I modify the haldex? (in both pre and post facelift, as they have different generations of haldex)

Ideally, Ide like to be able to do 2 things - Firstly, Ide like to be able to lock it in 4wd for offroad use, giving me a permenant 50/50 split. Secondly, is it possible to turn it off, so that its FWD only, and wire that up to the handbrkae (Like in the yaris GR) so that handbrake turns are possible without massive risk of damaging something.

Ive read that all diesel 4x4 skodas have a DPF from the factory - is this correct?

Thanks!

[Reeky]

Also, are all non-scout 4x4s 1.9 PD105? Or are there PD140 4x4s? Thanks

[Ootohere]

Try a bit of internet searching including on Briskoda.  People try and manage all sorts. Different Generations/ years,

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/488866-handbrake-turns-in-th-snow

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/324618-haldex-4-upgrades

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/144721-haldex-longevity-and-tuning

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/487343-dsa-haldex-controller-for-superb-iii-awd

 

[skomaz]

2 hours ago, Reeky said:

Alright - calling anyone who might know;

How much can I modify the haldex? (in both pre and post facelift, as they have different generations of haldex)

Ideally, Ide like to be able to do 2 things - Firstly, Ide like to be able to lock it in 4wd for offroad use, giving me a permenant 50/50 split. Secondly, is it possible to turn it off, so that its FWD only, and wire that up to the handbrkae (Like in the yaris GR) so that handbrake turns are possible without massive risk of damaging something.

Ive read that all diesel 4x4 skodas have a DPF from the factory - is this correct?

Thanks!

 

Haldex modification - not much as far as I can tell and in my experience.

Locks in 4wd - no it has no diff locks.  It might be possible via VCDS but unsure.

FWD only - pre facelifts were exactly that until wheel slip was detected at which point the Haldex kicked in and they became 4wd

DPF's - no 1.9TDI's didn't have a dpf but 2.0TDi's did

Non-scout 4x4's come in both 1.9 105 and 2.0 140 flavours, the latter with dpf's

[Reeky]

Thanks both!

Am I mistaken in thinking that the Yeti had a 4wd lock button? (or similar)

"when slip is detected" - I suppose this means front wheels spinning much faster than the rears, in which case a yank on the handbrake will mean the haldex tries to kick in.

Now that the prices are mostly ballanced out (because theyre all at least 10 years old now), which is the best to go for in terms of engine (PD105, PD140, CR140) and haldex gen 2 vs gen 4? Personally Im not too fussed about the looks or the interior, but the increased towing capacity in the 2.0 might be useful one day (but its not a decider at all).

Are the bottom ends of the CR and PD the same? The main things I care about are power, fuel economy, and cost to repair/modify. Not really fussed that the PD is slightly louder and less refined. Ive also heard that the PD is more tollerant of crap fuel?

Thanks!

 

[Ootohere]

@ReekyAre there filling stations in the UK that you can buy crap diesel at, or do you need to go to some trading estate or farm or across to Ireland to buy it from some dodgy geezers?

[Reeky]

No, diesel in the UK is generally quite good compared to global standards.

Its more of a "just in case" thing. I live in a rural area, so contaminated, or old fuel isnt unheard of. Also, I might want to drive to some parts of the world where the diesel IS crap. Im also somewhat keen on the idea of trying to make my own biodiesel (again, not a deciding factor)

I mean, this is my thought process. Ive decided I want an AWD estate, with a manual gearbox, and good MPG, and within my budget. So theres the VAG group, the Subaru Legacy, the Volvo V70, and the alfa 159. So straight off the bat, the Audi A4s boot is too small, the A6 and Superb are too big, and the subaru EE20 diesel engine has a chocolate crankshaft (in the gen 4 legacy) and the gen 5 is just too ugly, and we're hardly talking about sports coupes here. The volvo is on the big side, and its 2.4L 5pot uses too much fuel, and the Alfa WILL bankrupt me. That only leaves the passat 4motion and the octavia. I dont want an electronic handbrake, so that limits me to the B5.5 passat and older, and theyre getting on a fair bit now. So voila, the Skoda Octavia. An easy decision.

If only it were that simple - because theres still so much choice. Theres the prefacelift 1.9 PD105 4x4, the prefacelift Scout 2.0 PD140, both with gen 2 haldex AWD systems. Then theres the facelift which has the gen 4 haldex, but no PD140, only the CR.

I think Ideally Ide pick the facelift with the PD140, or the Pre-FL with a gen 4 haldex.

Unless of course, the facelift non-scout 4x4 in 2.0tdi form is the PD, not the CR?

[skomaz]

Yanking on the handbrake won't kick in the 4wd as the car will know your yanked the handbrake on. 

 

If your going with making your own biodiesel or using stuff like chippie oil then go PD and probably 1.9 as a CR won't cope.  Pre-FL are all PD, face-lift are CR either 2.0 or 1.6.

 

For info a pd 105 can be mapped to 140.  A pd140to 185 with the dpf removed and, as its euro 4 will still pass an MOT. 

[Reeky]

5 minutes ago, skomaz said:

1.) Yanking on the handbrake won't kick in the 4wd as the car will know your yanked the handbrake on. 

 

2.) If your going with making your own biodiesel or using stuff like chippie oil then go PD and probably 1.9 as a CR won't cope. 3.) Pre-FL are all PD, face-lift are CR either 2.0 or 1.6.

 

4.) For info a pd 105 can be mapped to 140.  A pd140to 185 with the dpf removed and, as its euro 4 will still pass an MOT. 

1 - Excellent stuff, thats exactly what I wanted to know, thanks!

2 - Yep, its not a decider, but a "good to know"

3 - Post FL 1.9 4x4s are still PD though arent they?

4 - I think 140 will be a little lacking. Whats the limit for each of the engines in the realm of stuff I can bolt on in the shed at home and then get it remapped? (i.e. without pulling the engine out)

Thanks!

[cheezemonkhai]

There is the mk3 octavia with a CR190 and there was a 4x4. Shame the superb is too big (it’s not that big) as there was a petrol 4x4 with 290bhp.

 

Going from petrol to diesel the power matters less and the torque more imho.

 

Question on fuel would be at the front of my mind though. Diesel is nearly 30p more than petrol here. 

I wouldn’t think you’d actually make any big savings on the fuel side. What about switchable map with an economy map and the standard map for the legacy?

 

I also assume the air and fuel filter are regularly changed and the sparks etc in good condition?

[Reeky]

The subaru has been sold - but yes it was in good condition mechanically. It had loads of power and grip but like I say it wolfed down fuel, and it was somehow a little dull/numb in the corners. (too much grip and mild understeer)

Ive also driven a 2.0 CR140 passat a fair bit, which Ide say was more fun in the corners, one could even slide the back end on a wet roundabout - not something the scooby could manage.

The CR190 4x4 - sounds excellent, but Im guessing its DSG only, and probably a little on the expensive side for me.

Petrol to diesel switch isnt really a big deal, Ive owned and driven both over the years - never had a turbo petrol though

Fuel saving is massive, a diesel skoda would use less than half the fuel, so the fact that diesel is at most 20% more expensive than cheap petrol doesnt swing it, especially in the case of a PD which can run on a mix of veg oil etc.

No such thing as an economy map for a 245hp 24 valve boxer 6 AWD car....