Hard brake pedal with the engine off

[akon]

Hello, anyone had this type of issue till now on manual cars? 90% of the time, after the engine is stopped, the brake pedal is hard as stone.

Attention pls, don't compare with the usual thing when you press the brake multiple times with the engine off.

The problem is that if you want to start the car and the road is sloped( you have to press cluch pedal + brake ), the car will slide1-2 meters till the brake booster is on.

Also sometimes autohold and hill hold malfunction and I think is related to this.

2 different dealers untill now without any real solution.

Thanks

[KenONeill]

43 minutes ago, akon said:

The problem is that if you want to start the car and the road is sloped( you have to press cluch pedal + brake ), the car will slide1-2 meters till the brake booster is on.

You have heard of handbrakes and transmission locks?

[Ootohere]

@akonWelcome.

Are you parking and applying the Parking Brake /e-Brake and keeping on until time for it to release.

 

@KenONeill

What Transmission lock do you get on Manual Gearbox Skoda's? 

They are not a Hand Brake if they are an e-Brake,

more of a finger brake with the Parking Brakes.

 

The e-Brake is not 'Autohold; 

or Hill Hold Assist, the e-Brake like a Hand Brake works on rear brakes.

Edited 30 August, 2022 by roottoot

[akon]

16 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

You have heard of handbrakes and transmission locks?

Are you kidding me? If by any reason the electric handbrake isn't working?

I added this question because this is a strange behavior of this car and I never saw this till now( I drove probably more than 100 manual cars , on different brands) .

Please don't try to be 'smart' and help if it's possible, if no, just skip.

Thx

[Ootohere]

There must be a reason the e-brake / parking brake is not working.   Are you getting the red sign on the dash, and a red light at the switch?

 

Something wrong if the Dealership Fitter or Technician is not finding a fault. 

?

Have you been in the car with them to show them?

 

PS

I do not drive manuals with e-Brakes only DSG's but someone with them or that drives them will be along. 

Edited 30 August, 2022 by roottoot

[varooom]

There is a Service campaign 46G7  TPI 2046745/9 for VW that might be affecting you (remember they do share parts "bin") regarding faults with the EPB

 

On vehicles with electronic parking brake PR No. UH2 and a manual gearbox of a certain production
period in rare cases the vehicle cannot always be automatically stopped when using Auto Hold.

 

You need to get a list of your PR codes, you may have a partial list in your boot or service book, look for the above PR code.

[SkOmk4]

1 hour ago, akon said:

90% of the time, after the engine is stopped, the brake pedal is hard as stone.

Yes, I had this issue on several occasions on my old Megane 2 (and started using the hand-brake), and I found a possible explanation online. It seems that the brake booster (the so-called brake-force amplifier) is gradually loosing the buffered pressure, or vacuum to be more precise. It's usually a small leak, so it doesn't lose it in a few minutes after the engine was off, but it does over several hours... I found post of other people complaining about it, and they were mentioning that's usually solved by replacing the brake booster or the vacuum pipes between the engine and the booster - since the leakage is either on the piping or on the booster membrane. Either way, in your case it should be a replacement covered by warranty.
It could make sense that autohold or hill-hold does also fail in those conditions, since those systems are applying a small amount of braking force to hold the car; if that force is "calibrated" to be be just enough when the booster is amplifying it, then it might be insufficient on those occasions when the boost is unavailable. (I'm not sure if this explanation attempt makes any kind of sense to you...)
However, as @roottoot mentioned, the parking-brake (or hand-brake) should still work. Are they all failing at the same time?

[akon]

24 minutes ago, roottoot said:

@akonWelcome.

Are you parking and applying the Parking Brake /e-Brake and keeping on until time for it to release.

 

Let's be clear , the electric parking brake works fine for the moment but I never trust this 100% specially on winter time

My doubt is if it's normal to have a hard brake pedal after the engine is stopped, because never saw this before. I was thinking that maybe is something different of the brake sistem installed on Octavia 4 but I drove an Octavia 4 2020 and this behavior isn't there.

[SkOmk4]

2 minutes ago, akon said:

I never trust this 100% specially on winter time

+1
I also switched it off during winter, especially when very low temps were expected.

 

 

3 minutes ago, akon said:

if it's normal to have a hard brake pedal after the engine is stopped

I don't have my Octavia delivered yet, but for sure it's not normal behavior.

[Ootohere]

@akon Are you in the UK?

 

I like others in the UK in winter might not apply the handbrake or e-brake when there is freezing weather, 

not because we do not trust it to hold the car, but because the pads can freeze to the discs or drums.

Hot brakes applied and cooling is when they release and cars run away as is denied by VW Group. 

 

http://skoda-auto.com/services/recall-actions

 

Plenty threads over the years on winter parking. 

 

Edited 30 August, 2022 by roottoot

[KenONeill]

45 minutes ago, akon said:

Please don't try to be 'smart' and help if it's possible

Maybe try and remember that we don't all actually have your car instead of getting sarky with people.

[akon]

27 minutes ago, SkOmk4 said:

usually solved by replacing the brake booster or the vacuum pipes between the engine and the booster 

Thanks a lot, exactly what I was thinking about, the brake booster. The behavior is exactly the same.

I will push on the dealer, for the moment '' they couldn't reproduce the fault'' , as usual !

[SkOmk4]

1 hour ago, roottoot said:

not because we do not trust it to hold the car, but because the pads can freeze to the discs or drums

yep, precisely that behaviour...
It might happen that just before parking the car I drive through a patch of slushy snow, that will deposit a thin layer of water on the slightly warm rear brake-disks. The parking brake will apply the rear brake-pads on that water layer that will freeze once the temperature goes down (we do occasionally go well below -10 Celsius). Good-luck releasing the parking brake in such conditions... It finally does, with a loud "bang" after you try to pull away and after the rear suspension compresses...

 

1 hour ago, akon said:

for the moment '' they couldn't reproduce the fault''

I hope you manage to find a decent Skoda-service to identify the problem (if you're the same @akon I saw on the Romanian forum), it's hard to find good mechanics around here, and even harder those who would do their best to help the customer...
Try to reproduce yourself the fault, and do check if the brake pedal becomes hard in a couple of minutes, or if it needs several hours for the system to loose the vacuum. This way you can tell them exactly how to go into faulty-mode. In my case it needed at least 6-8 hours.

[Jim2015]

We have an iV DSG, with the e-handbrake. Before starting the car the footbrake is solid but as soon as I press the start button the pedal goes soft.

[Felix2021]

5 hours ago, akon said:

My doubt is if it's normal to have a hard brake pedal after the engine is stopped, because never saw this before. I was thinking that maybe is something different of the brake sistem installed on Octavia 4 but I drove an Octavia 4 2020 and this behavior isn't there.

It is normal in O4 if you ask me.

O4 has a new, electro-mechanical brakes servo, unlike older cars, that had vacuum servo.

It means, that car's computers can operate the servo at any time. On many occasions my car is "hardening" the pedal as i have my foot on it. I literally can feel pedal is lifting my foot, and being a rather strong guy, i cannot really stop it. But to be honest i cannot remember now in what situations it does that. Will try to check and report back, when i have a chance.

4 hours ago, akon said:

Thanks a lot, exactly what I was thinking about, the brake booster. The behavior is exactly the same.

Again - it's a completely different servo/booster, than in old cars. Has nothing to do with vacuum.

[Aurial]

There's definitely a fault there. By law your braking system must allow for two applications of the brakes after the compressor or vacuum pump stop working. This would be tested by a police officer or VOSA at the roadside by running the engine to ensure a vacuum in the chamber, switching the engine off and then pumping your brake pedal. Any less than four applications of the brakes would be a deferred prohibition, and less than two would be an immediate. The fact you state that when you start on a hill with your foot applied to the pedal and the vehicle is able to roll means it's definitely not right. 

 

Perhaps visiting your dealership with the Categorisation of Vehicle Defects manual, which is the book both Police vehicle examiners and VOSA vehicle examiners go by, and pointing out the defect to them (page 159) will get you somewhere.

[J.R.]

Would not be the first time that some new whizzbang system dreamed up does not comply with the law.

 

Does the manual or Construction & Use regulations still state that headlamp bulbs must be a minimum wattage and not luminous intensity? That was the case when the first LED headlights appeared which were non conforming to the archaic regulations.

 

 

[J.R.]

19 hours ago, akon said:

Are you kidding me? If by any reason the electric handbrake isn't working?

I added this question because this is a strange behavior of this car and I never saw this till now( I drove probably more than 100 manual cars , on different brands) .

Please don't try to be 'smart' and help if it's possible, if no, just skip.

Thx

Your posting did not say that the handbrake was functioning well and you were attempting a hill restart using the footbrake and clutch only, very very bad practice and one which requires heeling and toeing, Kens comment was appropriate given the information posted.

 

I have no choice but to do it on a hillstart when I have a heavily loaded trailer (2 or 3 tonne) behind me as the vehicle handbrake is not sufficient but I am heel & toeing in addition to the handbrake.

[akon]

14 hours ago, Felix2021 said:

It is normal in O4 if you ask me.

O4 has a new, electro-mechanical brakes servo, unlike older cars, that had vacuum servo.

 

In this case , why sometimes is working fine, exactly how I'm used with all other cars? This Skoda sistem has ''personality'' ?

I don't think that's a brake sistem design issue.

1 hour ago, Aurial said:

There's definitely a fault there. By law your braking system must allow for two applications of the brakes after the compressor or vacuum pump stop working. This would be tested by a police officer or VOSA at the roadside by running the engine to ensure a vacuum in the chamber, switching the engine off and then pumping your brake pedal. Any less than four applications of the brakes would be a deferred prohibition, and less than two would be an immediate. The fact you state that when you start on a hill with your foot applied to the pedal and the vehicle is able to roll means it's definitely not right. 

 

Perhaps visiting your dealership with the Categorisation of Vehicle Defects manual, which is the book both Police vehicle examiners and VOSA vehicle examiners go by, and pointing out the defect to them (page 159) will get you somewhere.

Thanks for your advice! You perfectly catch the meaning of my post.

 

@all 

since I notice that it is very difficult to convince the members of this forum of the existence of an issue with the car, does it make sense to consider that it will be easy with the Skoda dealers?

Let's say that I could live with this problem, but if I wake up at a certain moment, while driving, I'm left without a brake? This is my only fear.

[Ootohere]

@akon

Could you just make clear please.

Are you parked with the Parking Brake on and starting the engine with your foot also on the brake pedal, 

or no parking brake on when starting because you do not trust them in winter?

 

PS. 

there is a post about VOSA, that is the DVSA, Police officers etc.  That is for the UK.

?

Which country are you in?

Edited 31 August, 2022 by roottoot

[akon]

@roottootStarting the engine without parking brake on just with both pedal pressed, cluch and brake.

 

[akon]

2 hours ago, J.R. said:

Your posting did not say that the handbrake was functioning well and you were attempting a hill restart using the footbrake and clutch only, very very bad practice and one which requires heeling and toeing, Kens comment was appropriate given the information posted.

 

I have no choice but to do it on a hillstart when I have a heavily loaded trailer (2 or 3 tonne) behind me as the vehicle handbrake is not sufficient but I am heel & toeing in addition to the handbrake.

Is not this case. My problem is when I start the engine NOT when I want to drive and I'm parked on a hill.

[J.R.]

I cannot understand why you would want to start your engine before taking to the road with the handbrake released, or how your car can roll backwards 1-2 metres while you are doing so when you now say you are not on a hill.

 

Actually you said slide and not roll, are you on an icy level but cambered road?

 

As RootToot says, knowing your location might help us resolve this enigma you are gradually revealing. - I see you have now put Romania for your country.

Edited 31 August, 2022 by J.R.

[Aurial]

5 hours ago, roottoot said:

@akon

Could you just make clear please.

Are you parked with the Parking Brake on and starting the engine with your foot also on the brake pedal, 

or no parking brake on when starting because you do not trust them in winter?

 

PS. 

there is a post about VOSA, that is the DVSA, Police officers etc.  That is for the UK.

?

Which country are you in?

That was my fault. I posted without noting where in the world he was posting from. My bad.

 

Still, it would be worth checking your local vehicle standards, because most of them are standardised throughout Europe.

[Ootohere]

I think anyplace in the world the VW Group vehicles are supposed to be able to have the engine start with your foot on the brake pedal and the car not move.

(But then you are supposed to be able to park the car with the Parking Brake applied and the car not roll away at some point.)

 

People do still turn the front wheels into the kerb in places around the world if they have a manual gearbox.