I did an oil change today and there was a pretty sizeable metal bit in the oil as well as a few metal shavings. I’m a bit worried that it may be an indication of more wear to come - that may be expensive to fix. I was just wondering if someone could please help me identify what it is that came out the engine and how bad is it?

 

Appreciate any help

I don't know what it is, but I suspect the engine needs it. Would advise not driving it until identified/replaced.

That is a needle roller from a roller bearing, CAYC engine code?

Thank you for that! Yeah it is CAYC

 

How bad is it for you to be a needle roller down? Would you drive on it?Would it be expensive to fix? 
 

Just because I’m weighing up whether it’s better to repair the octy or just sell and get a new car.

 

Norris

1 hour ago, Pmnr121 said:

I was just wondering if someone could please help me identify what it is that came out the engine and how bad is it?

Well, that's a needle roller stuck to a magnet.  Seriously, do not drive the car, because one of the bearings seem to be collapsing, and you could be looking at destroying the shaft the bearing is on, and possibly having a conrod escape through the block.

Are needle rollers used in the CAYC engine? If so where?

 

3 things made me doubt what it initially looks like.

 

I was not aware of needle roller bearings being used inside an IC engine but await the wisdom of others.

 

The groove in the centre seems out of place for a needle roller, again I'm open to learning otherwise.

 

One side looks to have a slightly larger diameter than the other, my single eye is not good and enlarging on the computer doesn't help so others might confirm if they are differing diameters, if it was then it could be an alignment pin with interference fit one side and clearance fit the other.

 

I don't know the engine so can only guess using my experience of other engines, I have yet to see roller bearings used on a car crankshaft let alone needle rollers on conrod little ends, I could see them being used on a rocker shaft but all modern vehicles are OHC.

Edited 21 September, 20223 yr by J.R.

The metal shavings sound ominous, are they hardened?

 

Oil pump drive shaft?

Edited 21 September, 20223 yr by J.R.

The only needle roller I can see in a CAYC engine is for the flywheel centre - item 9  (details HERE) and I can't see how a loose roller could drop into the sump from there.

 

Is it possible the foreign object is only there by chance, dropped from elsewhere in a workshop and forgotten?

 

There's also item 8 although the parts catalogue is coy about identifying it.  Same applies as to a roller - how would it get into the sump?

 

If it is from a roller bearing in the engine it will probably require a full engine removal, strip down and inspection to identify where it is coming from. It's going to be expensive! Have you noticed anything different about they way your engine drives? What made you investigate that you came across this piece of metal?

 

If it were mine I would probably keep driving it until/if it ever goes bang. If it does it will require an extensive/expensive engine out/strip down/rebuild. It also might never happen. You have no idea how long that has been floating around in your sump. It might have just happened or it might have been there for years.  I'd drive it but listen out for any undue noises or vibrations. I'd also make sure I'd have adequate breakdown cover to get you home/chosen destination if the worst does happen.  If it does go bang I'd get a complete engine from a breakers and put that in.

 

The choice is yours.

 

PS - When I had metal bits in my oil of a MK2 16V Golf I knew exactly where they came from!

 

 

@Crasher, please let us know where it came from; it sounds as though you have seen this happen before?

 

Roller rocker arms have needle bearings I think, but this maybe looks too big to be one of those? @Pmnr121 could you take a pic with it sitting along a ruler?

Edited 22 September, 20223 yr by Breezy_Pete

1 hour ago, Golf-Fiend said:

You have no idea how long that has been floating around in your sump.

And neither do you!

Yes that looks too long to be out of a roller rocker and as Mike says the only other part that contains something like that is the crank spigot bearing and how would one of those make it in there? Hang on, they are two stuck together, they are out of a roller rocker.

 

Edited 22 September, 20223 yr by Crasher

8 minutes ago, Crasher said:

Hang on, they are two stuck together, they are out of a roller rocker

Ah! good spot. 

1 hour ago, Crasher said:

they are out of a roller rocker.

Still begs the question - how did they get into the sump?  I wonder if there has been a previous engine event that was not properly cleaned up?

Edited 22 September, 20223 yr by MikeTheThinker

Very well spotted, 2 rollers it would appear to be, that is exactly how they would align in a magnetic field.

 

So rockers on an OHC engine, is it a SOHC?

It is single belt drive gear to the exhaust cam and gear to gear drive over to the inlet, a bit like the Golf 2 16v KR but replacing the chain with meshed gears. There is only one way I know that one of those rockers can lose a bearing and that is when they have been smashed during cam belt failure.

Edited 22 September, 20223 yr by Crasher

2 hours ago, Golf-Fiend said:

If it is from a roller bearing in the engine it will probably require a full engine removal, strip down and inspection to identify where it is coming from. It's going to be expensive! Have you noticed anything different about they way your engine drives? What made you investigate that you came across this piece of metal?

 

If it were mine I would probably keep driving it until/if it ever goes bang. If it does it will require an extensive/expensive engine out/strip down/rebuild. It also might never happen. You have no idea how long that has been floating around in your sump. It might have just happened or it might have been there for years.  I'd drive it but listen out for any undue noises or vibrations. I'd also make sure I'd have adequate breakdown cover to get you home/chosen destination if the worst does happen.  If it does go bang I'd get a complete engine from a breakers and put that in.

 

The choice is yours.

 

PS - When I had metal bits in my oil of a MK2 16V Golf I knew exactly where they came from!

 

 

 

Narty but a rare KR problem. Unlike the 8V where you could bore and fit insert bearings (I found a full set in the stores last week!) and save the head, 

Edited 22 September, 20223 yr by Crasher

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

So rockers on an OHC engine, is it a SOHC?

DOHC.

This is from an SSP for a very different engine, but I expect the arrangement is about the same mechanically:

 

1 hour ago, MikeTheThinker said:

how did they get into the sump?

Gravity, oil flow and big old drain holes from head to sump.

What is the rationale for employing the rockers, one cam to operate 2 valves in a 4 valve per cylinder head? Lower engine height?

This is what they say in the bit I cropped out of the previous screenshot in order to get the rest of the text in.

Probably does have height advantage too, I guess.

 

I understand the advantage of roller rockers and have used them myself on race engines, what I don't understand is the need for rockers  on a DOHC engine, on a SOHC I can see why.

If you have ever owned a VAG 8 valve PD engine you are likely to have learnt the benefits of roller rockers over direct wiping lifters... Modern low saps oil doesn't work well with wiping surfaces hence lifter failure and timing chain wear. The 2.5 V6 TDI went from direct to roller finger because the cams wore so badly.