Brake System Maintenance Question

[R_Blue]

So, what I know now, no one can tell exactly what will happen if I try DOT5.

My master cylinder had been replaced before. It's a pick-up type. Who knows what kind of rubber parts in it?

If everything goes OK, next brake fluid change will be in the next summer. After seeing its color now, I won't keep the current fluid in it more than one year.

 

Another question:

What makes the old fluid's color so black?

Powdered and/or dissolved rubber? Or residuals of internal corrosion?

Edited 30 April, 2023 by R_Blue

[D.FYLAKTOS]

On 28/04/2023 at 00:00, R_Blue said:

Brake cylinders was TRW.

This was one of the their boxes.

 

 

From another source.

VW SKODA TRW Wheel Brake Cylinder BWD268

 

 

[D.FYLAKTOS]

16 minutes ago, R_Blue said:

So, what I know now, no one can tell exactly what will happen if I try DOT5.

 

Why would you want to make your car a "lab animal"?

 

19 minutes ago, R_Blue said:

What makes the old fluid's color so black?

 

The Brake Fluid Is Black: What Does It Mean?

 

If you open the car’s brake fluid reservoir and you notice black or brown fluid. So what happened to your car? We’re sorry to say that black brake fluid is a sign that your fluid is highly contaminated. When this happens, the braking system’s ability to pressurize is reduced and brake performance may be affected. Besides, black brake fluid means that the rubber gasket has deteriorated and the liquid in the tank is too old and needs to be replaced. In fact, it turns out that brake fluid contaminants are attacking the rubber seals and washers. The black color in the liquid is the carbon particles from the rubber pads.

Why does brake fluid turn black?

 

Many drivers said that black brake fluid is caused by its age. It’s a true opinion. Like other fluids,  the brake fluid will degrade after a long period and it needs to be replaced. After a while, your brake fluid will accumulate enough contaminants and cause the color to begin to change. This changeover will change from clear/yellow to a darker yellow, and when brake fluid is brown or black, this can seriously affect the braking system.

Inside the brake system is the brake fluid tank. From this reservoir, brake fluid travels its way from the cylinder to the car’s wheels. If you frequently step on the brake, the brake fluid will get contaminated faster. And even if you don’t drive as hard, as its feature, your brake fluid will still build up contaminants over time.

The second cause of discoloration in brake fluid is the deterioration of some parts in the brake system such as rubber brake lines, the gasket on the auxiliary cylinder, or the wheel. Because brake fluid is corrosive. Even though brake system components are designed to resist such corrosion. If not serviced or cared for properly, these parts will show signs of wear and tear. At this time, the microscopic pieces and soot of the rubber will follow the path to penetrate into the brake fluid. Discoloration as well as reducing the effectiveness of the fluid.

 

https://carfromjapan.com/article/car-maintenance/brake-fluid-is-black/

[nta16]

On 30/04/2023 at 19:53, R_Blue said:

What makes the old fluid's color so black?

In your case it could have been mainly the old rubber flexi-hoses breaking down and or more likely the TRW wheel cylinders seals.  If so it proves that it does not matter if you use DoT 3, 4 or 5 if the components have ****-poor rubbish rubber seals in them they will deteriorate and quite quickly or very quickly.  Not too many years back TRW master cylinders were known to be very poor out of the box or have problems quickly with little use.

 

For my MG I used to (but no longer) have a list of parts of, or with, ****-poor rubbish rubber and a list of other parts that were to be avoided compiled from my own experience and that of repeated reliable reports from others.  Some owners were clever enough to have small batches of proper quality parts made to offer around proving it could easily and economically be done if there was the demand, unfortunately generally the suppliers and end customers still want very cheapest, suppliers for profit margins and end customers being what we call "tight-fisted" (keeping a very firm grasp of any money they have).

 

"Classic" Minis could easily use parts with ****-poor rubbish rubber as the systems and (modern made) parts used on them are often the same parts and/or from the same sources as for MGs of the time.  In fact I often ordered brake parts for my MG from Mini spares suppliers as they offered exactly the same parts at lower prices, particularly DoT 3 and 4 brake fluid, or sometimes better made, or supposedly, better made, parts.

 

Having bought spare parts for various British "classics" for over 30 years I have seen supply patterns of parts being poor or very poor or abysmal quality then perhaps improved or New Old Stock available for a while then perhaps going back to cheap and very nasty.

 

Even parts made on the original tooling have deteriorate as the tooling ages and the obsession with many "classic" wanting the very lowest priced parts as it does not really matter to them as the vehicle is so rarely actually driven.

 

I had a set of rubber steering rack gaiters, that are a pain to fit with the rack on the car, last less than 6 months of very light use.

 

Another problem is some modern made parts are just wrong so either need altering to fit or will not fit at all.

 

Then also the suppliers keep the original or updated parts number on their parts databases but stock and supply an alternative part as a substitute because in some cross-reference database that substitute is supposed to fit.

 

Over the 30+ years because I have put hundreds of thousands of miles on my "daily" driven "classic" I have gone through many more parts than an average "classic" owner and dealt with major "classic" parts retailers and manufacturers direct (where possible) and found some that will give honest and truthful information about the parts, rather than the usual "you are the only (or first one) to have a problem with the part" or the much more annoying with one manufacture with original tooling that it must be something wrong with my car and not his product, you get to know which ones will never admit to fault.

 

Perhaps things have improved now or will improve in the future but I would not hold my breath waiting for it.

 

 

Edited 3 May, 2023 by nta16
removed photo and text

[R_Blue]

19 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

Why would you want to make your car a "lab animal"?

🤣 If you think like that, it is already a "lab animal". Because of unreliable parts like @nta16 described, some user before me adopted a Renault distributor.

The car has a custom ignition. Also, there is LPG conversion too.

I have one year to consider DOT5. One year is a long time for me to make future plans. How will I or my car be, one year later, is a mystery.

DOT5's paint friendly and easier on rubber parts features are good but if @nta16 is right and I think he is even DOT5 won't save rubber parts that are too low on quality.

 

4 hours ago, nta16 said:

Over the 30+ years because I have put hundreds of thousands of miles on my "daily" driven "classic"

I've read your reply two times.

That kind of experience is hard to come by. You are a true gem to the classic community. Thanks for all the info.

 

The picture you have posted, deserves to be framed and hanged on a wall in a cozy space.

Just looking to it...So many memories.

Three cars have one thing in common. They are pure machines. I guess, it provides lots of fun to drive them.

Especially the V8 on such a light chassis. Crazy. 🤩

 

[Thefeliciahacker]

21 hours ago, R_Blue said:

What makes the old fluid's color so black?

Powdered and/or dissolved rubber? Or residuals of internal corrosion?

Mostly seal material

[nta16]

To be fair D.FYLAKTOS has had his car as a "lab animal" with a few things as I remember from his post.

 

I have probably spent more in one month on my "classics" than other owners have spent in a year or ownership for some.  I do not put that as a boast because often it was not expenditure I wanted and was a silly waste of money.  If I never bought "classics" and stuck to Japanese cars I would be reasonably set up now and not in such modest circumstances.  We have a saying here -"do as I say not as I do", I always try to put stuff so that some can learn from my very expensive experiences, unfortunately if it was not for bad luck I would have no luck with cars.  Good thing I am lucky in love which is much more important and rewarding.  And I have kept my teeth, looks and modesty. 😄

 

 The Westies were plastic copies  of the Lotus Seven  which originally had different smaller engines (lightweight car, small engine)  the Lotus 7 was well known as the Prisoner's car in the UK. - 

 

Edited 3 May, 2023 by nta16
removed photos and text now R_Blue has seen them

[D.FYLAKTOS]

1 hour ago, nta16 said:

To be fair D.FYLAKTOS has had his car as a "lab animal" with a few things as I remember from his post.

 

I never took risks putting different specifications fluids in Steering wheel oil-Brake fluid-Gear oil-Coolant-Engine oil.

I have changed for example light bulbs (No Skoda) or added temporary an additive to Coolant or added noise-heat insulation etc but i don't like make ''Chemistry experiments" (in this case with DOT 5).

Since i don't have extra money to spend on repairs and no time to do things like ''let's put some 0W-30 engine oil for few months do see how will work" or ''let's use plain water instead of Coolant to see the difference in performance" etc i stick with what the manual says.

 

On 30/04/2023 at 22:07, D.FYLAKTOS said:

Brake cylinders was TRW

 

https://www.briskoda.net/forums/?app=core&module=system&controller=content&do=find&content_class=forums_Topic&content_id=512262&content_commentid=5752139

 

I don't know which is Fake.

[nta16]

37 minutes ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

or added temporary an additive to Coolant

As I remembered it you used a coolant additive to a more-diluted coolant mixture but I might have remembered wrong.  If I remember correctly you have experimented with the engine air intake and air filter and an electronics remap or similar, different sized wheels(?) and or tyres(?) and other things I forget, taking the car away from factory standard but it is your car so you can do or not do whatever you want with it.

 

37 minutes ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

I don't know which is Fake.

The box for the TRW brake cylinder did not look as if a fake to me but I could well be wrong as I have never seen a genuine box for the item but it was, as far as I could ascertain, genuine TRW master cylinders that were faulty that I referred to earlier, they do not need to be fake to possibly have ****-poor rubbish rubber seals - perhaps even the fake ones might have better seals but I have not heard of fake TRW parts, they may or make not exist it is just that I have not heard of them.

 

With the major and even smaller "classic" parts suppliers (smaller often get their parts from the major supplier anyway) in the UK you can ask how many units they have sold in say a year and how many returns they have had for that part but this is not always a particularly good measure as often if a (smaller) part is faulty they will tell their customer to keep that part and send them another free of cost.  These second (or more) "free" parts sent to the customer will have been costed into the selling price of the part and allowed for in their purchase from their suppliers.  They often buy very cheap so expect lower quality and returns from that.  Some suppliers offer the same parts as cheap and nasty or higher quality at higher price (not always a big price increase either) but they will sell many multiplies of the lower priced cheap and nasty part than the higher quality part.

 

I bought what was supposed to be a good quality reproduction radiator (only 6 returned in a couple of years) and it had the wrong thread for the fixings and I had to clean up the thread for the (lower quality) filler plug, then after finding the fixings in my shed to match the wrong ones on the rad I found one was out of line so was not a good line up for the bracket so I asked for a swap.  The next one had the correct fixing threads and lined up (filler plug thread still needed sorting but after it was in for about 18 months the shallow solder spots on one side gave up and the top came apart at that point.  Luckily it was only a top trim and the rad is removed with its cowling housing so this was just an annoyance rather than an issue, unless the cowling had to be replaced.

 

Just one (well two really) incidence with parts quality of very, very, very many.

 

[R_Blue]

On 01/05/2023 at 21:02, nta16 said:

Good thing I am lucky in love which is much more important and rewarding.  And I have kept my teeth, looks and modesty. 😄

I say cheers to that.

On 01/05/2023 at 21:02, nta16 said:

Spot the differences to the 130.

It is more aerodynamic. Because it has mudguards mounted closely on the tire. Unlike ordinary cars, in this design the mudguard is connected to the suspension and it moves with the tire.

On 01/05/2023 at 21:02, nta16 said:

My wife's Favorit on the hard-standing.

So she didn't like the Cooper but she liked Favorit.  

 

On 01/05/2023 at 21:02, nta16 said:

And to finish off, the replacement for the car above after I flip it and wrote it off

That was something I kept thinking about. Are there safety measures for flip overs?

 

On 01/05/2023 at 21:02, nta16 said:

The Westies were plastic copies  of the Lotus Seven 

Of course I've never saw one in real life but I know the car. It's a famous design. Before widespread internet available, I knew the car as Caterham 7.

I think I had a toy car like that and of course I saw it in video games, on tv etc.

I didn't know it was originally Lotus and had many copies.

 

On 01/05/2023 at 21:02, nta16 said:

British sportscar were not about ego dial speeds but to enjoy the fabulous British minor roads that are narrow and twist and turn that require the use of the steering wheel, gears and perhaps brake with the only real electronics being the "nut behind the steering wheel" (driver's brain).

Cars that are tailored to their homeland and people. Like German's autobahn cars and Japanese Kei cars.

You wouldn't enjoy a huge merc. or a kei car on those beautiful roads.

But... When talking about speed, please don't forget about...

Jaguar XJ220 and of course the venerated, legendary McLaren F1.

 

On 01/05/2023 at 22:21, D.FYLAKTOS said:

I don't know which is Fake.

The TRW package you have found has a date mark from 2011. My TRW package is from 2018. Packages can change in 7 years.

Now I have Cifam. A metelli group brand. It's Italian.

Same group have the Graf brand. Which I know from Fav./Fel. coolant pump. Currently, in the local market, they are selling Graf coolant pumps as a premium product and other Chinese brands as cheaper alternatives. I hope it will be reliable.

 

 

Edited 2 May, 2023 by R_Blue

[Thefeliciahacker]

6 hours ago, R_Blue said:

Graf coolant pumps as a premium product and other Chinese brands as cheaper alternatives. I hope it will be reliable.

They have weird standards in tr I guess 

[D.FYLAKTOS]

On 01/05/2023 at 23:22, nta16 said:

If I remember correctly you have experimented with the engine air intake and air filter and an electronics remap or similar, different sized wheels(?) and or tyres(?) and other things I forget, taking the car away from factory standard

 

These are not ''chemical experiments".

New wheels-tyres were in the factory standards, new air filter, new discs-calipers-hoses were in factory standards.

ECU chip were from a programmer from England.

 

[nta16]

12 hours ago, R_Blue said:

It is more aerodynamic. Because it has mudguards mounted closely on the tire. Unlike ordinary cars, in this design the mudguard is connected to the suspension and it moves with the tire.

Sorry I was not being serious with the question, I chose to have the same colour body and same wheels, other than perhaps Minilite style wheels I prefer steel wheels with chrome hubcaps.  I also liked the swept front wings but Westfield would not put then on the SEiGHTs as they made the from too light at higher speeds.  The front cycle wings were fun to see as you rightly put they turned with the front wheels.  I also preferred the indicators in the swept wing and larger headlights and bowls but they would be in the way of the cycle wing guards when turning.  Note the original The Prisoner's 7 is with hand signals (and fixed seat back rest.  There was very little aerodynamic in the shape of the cars and windscreens, hence eye protection.

 

 

12 hours ago, R_Blue said:

So she didn't like the Cooper but she liked Favorit.  

The Favorit was a few years before the Mini, she did not like the driving position in the Mini and it is a bit odd, plus she really wanted the Fiat Cinquecento which she bought later that year when the new UK registration was out.  I did not want to get a Fiat as they were as Fiats generally were not that well built and would have issues fairly soon and the UK Fiat Dealerships and not great even by English Dealership standards, unfortunately I was proved right about these things but luckily not too badly and her car was resprayed "lipstick red" by a local place that done a good job under warranty especially after I was asked what I had used to clean the car and reeled off a list of polishes and waxes, I could not do that now as I do not use them, or can remember a list.  😄

 

 

12 hours ago, R_Blue said:

That was something I kept thinking about. Are there safety measures for flip overs?

They are low cars so it takes an idiot and bad driving to flip them.  The roll (over) bar is not just for show it does function but like "classics" there are very few safety features compared to more modern cars, seatbelts are great, the roll bar not anywhere near as effective without seatbelt.  Biggest safety measure is to totally avoid getting into any problems and drive better.

 

 

13 hours ago, R_Blue said:

I didn't know it was originally Lotus and had many copies.

There was a Lotus 6 before the Lotus 7, a mate had a 6 back in the 60s, they were not worth as much then.  There is a whole load of history with Caterham and Westfield and why the Westfields had to be developed on so were able to fit in different and bigger engines and the motorbike engines and Caterhams had little development.  There were are lots of kit-car copies of the Lotus 7 not usually anywhere near as good as the Westfield or Caterham.

 

 

13 hours ago, R_Blue said:

You wouldn't enjoy a huge merc. or a kei car on those beautiful roads.

Friends have had Mercs and some were real V88 AMGs (not just trim level badge) and they are not what I enjoy, AMGs at least have the right exhaust noise.  We have had a few Kei cars and they are ideal for the better UK roads.  It is not about the ego speed on the dial it is all about how the car feels on the road and makes you feel as the driver (or passenger).  Better UK roads are 60mph or now 50 or even 40 in places so lots of power and speed is either not possible or a waste.  Straight fast roads are OK for a quick cleaning blow out but to me are very boring very soon and higher speeds are potentially much bigger damage.

 

 

13 hours ago, R_Blue said:

Jaguar XJ220 and of course the venerated, legendary McLaren F1.

Sorry I do not believe in excessive regard for any, well, anything, there is a Jag 220 in the club that has often taken people out at SBDRs, I have not been out in it but I believe there is a lot of noise and the radio might shoot out of of its housing on acceleration but that might be a myth(?).  I was out on a mixed car run, in the Midget, with a McLaren (something, it was orange) and unfortunately I got stuck behind it at one point on a country road and like all these super and hyper cars it is too wide-arsed so had to slow or even pull over on not even that narrow country roads holding us up on gaps I could have got a standard car through easily and the Midget one and a half times.  I have had this before on other runs with Fezzas (Lambo drivers are generally a different type and less cautious).

 

The family that owned the Jag 220 also had a few other cars too and liked small quirky cars and had ones like the (3-wheel) Grinnall Scorpion, Carver One (leaning 3-wheeler with original Kei-class Diahatsu Copen engine) and had a 'grey import' Copen before my wife got her early UK Copen.  Some in the club like us could barely afford a Midget and others have a fleet of vehicles but we are all just people.   

 

 

[R_Blue]

19 hours ago, nta16 said:

Sorry I was not being serious with the question

Always a pleasure.

 

20 hours ago, nta16 said:

Sorry I do not believe in excessive regard for any, well, anything, there is a Jag 220 in the club that has often taken people out at SBDRs, I have not been out in it but I believe there is a lot of noise and the radio might shoot out of of its housing on acceleration but that might be a myth(?).  I was out on a mixed car run, in the Midget, with a McLaren (something, it was orange) and unfortunately I got stuck behind it at one point on a country road and like all these super and hyper cars it is too wide-arsed so had to slow or even pull over on not even that narrow country roads holding us up on gaps I could have got a standard car through easily and the Midget one and a half times.  I have had this before on other runs with Fezzas (Lambo drivers are generally a different type and less cautious).

Hahaha. I'd like to see that.

Looks like they are more suited for boulevards of Las Vegas.

 

A Midget won't cut you from the environment completely. You can enjoy both the surroundings and the road itself. You can drive on everyday roads with a sporty, spirited fashion while keeping your modesty. Jag 220 can't provide that. I understand.

 

20 hours ago, nta16 said:

Some in the club like us could barely afford a Midget and others have a fleet of vehicles but we are all just people.   

It's good to know that kind of spirit is still present somewhere in the world.

 

Thanks for the reply.

It was a good read as always.

[nta16]

1 hour ago, R_Blue said:

Hahaha. I'd like to see that.

Looks like they are more suited for boulevards of Las Vegas.

Did you have a look at the video I put into this link. - SBDR

 

Don't get me wrong if you have the chance for a ride in a 220 take it.

 

For other super and hypercars that just not much fun on UK roads at least.  Even at totally illegal speeds you just don't know you are going as a passenger but that is the same for even mass market modern cars, 60 and 70 mph is nothing on many roads even with an average driver and even less so with a good driver ( I am not a good driver).

 

The driver makes a big difference as a total generalisation in my experience many Fezza owners don't really know how to drive their cars because the same as many "classic" drivers they do not drive the vehicle to learn what it is capable of and what they as the are capable of driving the car.

 

Lambo drivers tend to be a different sort, if you have the choice of going out as a passenger in a Fezza or Lambo I would suggest the Lambo.  Of course some own and drive both Fezza and Lambos and other marques and types of car so it's not a solid rule.  Don't bother going out with a test driver or track instructor on the public roads as they are so smooth at driving they make the speeds seem a lot lower than they actually are.

 

I went out with a test driver, in a Noble M400, on the public roads and his driving style was so serene yet he was out driving the Fezza that was in front of us until we went passed, all within legal speed limits and safe driving, the M400 is a good car against a Fezza though, but so was my mate's Westie 4.3 V8 (well built engine).

 

You are even more in touch with the environment in something like a Westfield than even something like a Midget, less windscreen no doors (unless you fit the granny sidescreens) lower to the ground (not as low as a Lotus Elise or Lotus/ Westfield 11) and those front cycle wing do not stop you getting slurry up your arm and nostrils (it stings). 😄   

 

I think you saw the hurried video my neighbour made of the Midget, did you also see the hurried video my neighbour done of another mate's Westfield 130 (Ford Zetec 130 engine) with me trying to drive it with the seat too far back so I could not fully operate the accelerator (I am 1.6m the seat was adjusted for someone 1.9m) and with my (Covid) lock down locks (uncut hair) and baseball cap flying off (not in final edit).  If not I can put up a link for you.

I really like the ability to overtake a line of cars (but you are on the wrong side of the road for a long time and I did have to look out in case someone in the line might pull out in front of me having not looked in their mirror or not expecting my car to be with them so quickly) but I enjoy more overall having a small low powered car as it gives more entertainment and at lower speeds.  Even a low powered car most of the time is only using a fraction of its power so a higher powered car is wasting more of it power much more often and for longer.  All about how the car feels and makes you feel.  Many like the standard VW Beetle or vans and they can hardly pull their own shadow.

 

[R_Blue]

9 hours ago, nta16 said:

Did you have a look at the video I put into this link. - SBDR

Of course I did. Impressive.

 

9 hours ago, nta16 said:

Don't get me wrong if you have the chance for a ride in a 220 take it.

 

It's like 1/billion chance but yes of course I will.

 

10 hours ago, nta16 said:

I went out with a test driver, in a Noble M400, on the public roads and his driving style was so serene yet he was out driving the Fezza that was in front of us until we went passed, all within legal speed limits and safe driving, the M400 is a good car against a Fezza though, but so was my mate's Westie 4.3 V8 (well built engine).

I checked Noble M400 and it has a good power to weight ratio. Fezzas are powerful but usually they are heavy. Some of them are heavier than 1.500Kg.

 

10 hours ago, nta16 said:

You are even more in touch with the environment in something like a Westfield than even something like a Midget, less windscreen no doors (unless you fit the granny sidescreens) lower to the ground (not as low as a Lotus Elise or Lotus/ Westfield 11) and those front cycle wing do not stop you getting slurry up your arm and nostrils (it stings). 😄   

 

10 hours ago, nta16 said:

If not I can put up a link for you.

Yes, please. I'd like to watch it.

 

10 hours ago, nta16 said:

I really like the ability to overtake a line of cars (but you are on the wrong side of the road for a long time and I did have to look out in case someone in the line might pull out in front of me having not looked in their mirror or not expecting my car to be with them so quickly) but I enjoy more overall having a small low powered car as it gives more entertainment and at lower speeds.  Even a low powered car most of the time is only using a fraction of its power so a higher powered car is wasting more of it power much more often and for longer.  All about how the car feels and makes you feel.  Many like the standard VW Beetle or vans and they can hardly pull their own shadow.

I understand your logic.

Most high performance cars' 1st gear ratios are adjusted to be able to reach 60mph before red-line. 

In real world with such a car, where the legal speed limit is 50mph, will you use only the first gear or maybe the first and the second? Where is the fun in that?

[D.FYLAKTOS]

On 28/04/2023 at 01:17, R_Blue said:

I used thread locker liquid

 

Low-Medium or High strength?

[nta16]

11 hours ago, R_Blue said:

Of course I did. Impressive.

There are other videos of the 220 and other cars but of course people use different titles for their own videos.

 

 

11 hours ago, R_Blue said:

Fezzas are powerful but usually they are heavy.

I did once have a passenger ride in an F40, the dash looked like it was cover in a cheap carpet I rather liked that.  Driver went at silly speeds and really you couldn't tell, it was silly to do so really, lower speeds and more interesting roads would have been better.

 

 

11 hours ago, R_Blue said:

Yes, please. I'd like to watch it.

Here.  The car's sound had to be dubbed on and does not match the images but all was done on very cheap second hand equipment and free or very cheap editing programs as the returns from YouTube are tiny and although the shooting took very little time the editing takes ages.

 

 

11 hours ago, R_Blue said:

Most high performance cars' 1st gear ratios are adjusted to be able to reach 60mph before red-line. 

Not just high performance cars, if you wanted a quick take-off in something like a V8 Westie you would start in 2nd gear, none of these fancy launch controls, silly on a road car all about track use.  Always funny to see a Fezza owner that does not really know his car and  not able to move his car because he has messed up the launch settings and not know how to disable them to crawl the car away.  🙂

 

[R_Blue]

11 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

Low-Medium or High strength?

Medium strength.

 

11 hours ago, nta16 said:

I did once have a passenger ride in an F40

F40 is a different kind of breed. It doesn't have any luxury details so, it's lighter compared to other Fezzas.

I think it's a privilege to see one from close. Riding in it? You are very lucky. They are rare cars.

 

On 04/05/2023 at 13:42, nta16 said:

did you also see the hurried video

Actually I saw it before but it didn't seem like a hurried video to me. So I thought there was some other video you were mentioning about.

I also watched the Midget. That midget was yours right? I liked the sound of the engine. Car's general condition was excellent. Who bought it is a lucky person. I saw the electronic distributor which you've mentioned before. Do you know exact hp value at the time that video was recorded?

That Westfield is impressive. It is designed to give the owner a hard-core old school pure sports car experience with a small budget. Also, many of its parts are from easy to obtain common road vehicles, so an owner can make the maintenance and repairs if they want.

[nta16]

On 05/05/2023 at 22:25, R_Blue said:

F40 is a different kind of breed.

Yes the F40 was the only Fezza I'd be interested in a ride in, more my style of driver's car still a total waste of time on British roads or most roads anywhere I'd guess.

 

 

On 05/05/2023 at 22:25, R_Blue said:

Actually I saw it before but it didn't seem like a hurried video to me.

I saw my mate with that car only yesterday and he reminded that the car was very untidy at the time with the duck tape at the nose cone edge and mess of wires under the dash, all sorted soon after the vid with new modern fuse boxes added too.  A new aluminium topbox will be filled to the (extended) luggage rack soon as he prepares to take it over to the Historic Circuit of Laon, in France, again.

 

The video was very hurried except for the driving, mostly I wasn't going above 40mph with an odd stretch of 50 or 60 and the engine does not really pick up until 4,000 revs and I doubt I ever got to that let alone above it.  The car's sound had to be dubbed on from a video my mate made from inside the car, with the hood up, coincidentally on his way to Loan the previous year, as there was far too much wind noise on the actual recording.  If yo look you will se the acceleration noises do not tie in with how the car is actually going.  At one point you can see the brake lights on yet the sound is of the car still accelerating.  The exhaust silencer has also been repacked since both videos as it previously blow out the original insulation.

 

Not included was when my baseball cap got blown off, went about 4m straight up to drop back and land on the dual-carriageway road just as a motorbike approached it and steered round it, good repossesses by him.  That is why I accelerated at the change of traffic  lights as they changed to get to the nearby roundabout to get back to my cap before it became roadkill or another motorbike to swerve round it not knowing what it is.

 

The video was made with a cheap second-hand Go-Pro copy and free or cheap editing software and was only the second after the Midget where my neighbour done the voice-over himself.  I have no idea what the subtitles would make of his accent, Google is not yet clever enough to deal with English accents.  Very few in England have the "Queen's English" you hear in international films, there are so many accents here and even people from only 30 miles away may not fully understand every word or phrase let alone regional accents.

 

 

On 05/05/2023 at 22:25, R_Blue said:

That midget was yours right? I liked the sound of the engine. Car's general condition was excellent. Who bought it is a lucky person. I saw the electronic distributor which you've mentioned before. Do you know exact hp value at the time that video was recorded?

Yes that was mine for 15 years until last August.  The condition was good but far from excellent, a mate who bought it had it highly polished in short order, replaced the failed (wrong rubber) seals in the concentric slave clutch with some special seals and sorted some other jobs that were on my list to do.  He also found how poor the replacement  hood was that I bought and had fitted by the manufacturer and how difficult it is to raised in all but the warm sun.  I also sold him the hood I had bought and had arranged to have fitted by an upholsterer (which is now an expensive job).  I expect he will bring the car round once he has fitted the new hood in the hotter weather.  I have not seen the car since well before Xmas and if I remember correctly the engine was still out as the gearbox was away seeing what could be done with it to stop the leaking - it was supplied, modified and fitted by 'the conversion specialists' otherwise known by me as f...ing lying con-men but very highly regarded by many others including a famous car TV personality.

 

I hope my mate has also had the stainless steel silencer repacked as that was far too noisy, the baffles inside go a bit but not fully and the noise goes up , another job I had lined up after my other mate's success with his on the Westie.

 

HP values are ego figures, highest does not mean best for overall running, a flat high torque curve is better.  Apart from after the second  rolling road session when I was getting improved parts and all the servicing was paying off all subsequent sessions the figures reduced because of a change of rollers, changing in UK fuel and as the car was aged and wore.  Last rolling road session, with real figures given by a proper Austin/BMC/BL A and B-series engine builder and tuner rather than some that extend the figures for egos, running on 95 octane E5 (could have higher if set for and using 99 octane E0 as I often did) - 80.62 hp at 5,442.  Torque 86.28 lbft at 3,297 and reasonably level from 3,200-4,400.  Book claim when new would have been 64hp and 72 lbft.

 

 

On 05/05/2023 at 22:25, R_Blue said:

That Westfield is impressive. It is designed to give the owner a hard-core old school pure sports car experience with a small budget.

Depends on your budget, the kit versions could be put together using second hand components and parts but the factory built ZEi 130 and SEiGHTs were at the time European compliant and with everything new build, they were quite expensive compared to an ordinary mass-market car.

 

My mate's 130 in the video is I believe a 'clubman' version built for road and track use, it has 14" instead of the 15" wheels my 130 had. mine also had a heater his not, his a side exhaust mine under the car, his quick-release bonnet clips, mine four keylocks and his engine bay is a lot more congested than mine was, perhaps his as a slightly earlier car than mine Westfield were still finding out what they could fit where or perhaps more items were need for track compliance.

 

 

On 05/05/2023 at 22:25, R_Blue said:

Also, many of its parts are from easy to obtain common road vehicles, so an owner can make the maintenance and repairs if they want.

That was true but the Westfield made parts were another matter, Westfield was very strict about getting those, the ducted nosecones of the factory cars were not allowed to be sold for kitcar use.  If you made any part and offered it to others Westfield would threaten to sue (as Caterham did with them that caused the Westfield improvements).  On my mate's car is an update roll-over bar with a inset  wind-deflector which he made himself (Fezza fabric).  He also made the extendable luggage rack, fitted a heated-windscreen and his brother made the micro-adjusting tracking parts.

 

The Westfield "7s" sit high up compared with the Westfield 11s, copies of the Lotus 11, which started the Westfield company, the Wikki on Westfield, like so much on the internet generally about many subjects, is very short on information and has errors. 

 

 

Edited 8 May, 2023 by nta16

[R_Blue]

On 06/05/2023 at 17:53, nta16 said:

The video was very hurried except for the driving,

Now I see why you said that but still, compared to lots of amateur videos I saw before, it's good.

On 06/05/2023 at 17:53, nta16 said:

Not included was when my baseball cap got blown off, went about 4m straight up to drop back and land on the dual-carriageway road just as a motorbike approached it and steered round it, good repossesses by him.  That is why I accelerated at the change of traffic  lights as they changed to get to the nearby roundabout to get back to my cap before it became roadkill or another motorbike to swerve round it not knowing what it is.

That part should've been included.

On 06/05/2023 at 17:53, nta16 said:

neighbour done the voice-over himself.

Fine by me. I can understand most of it even without subtitles.

On 06/05/2023 at 17:53, nta16 said:

Very few in England have the "Queen's English" you hear in international films, there are so many accents here and even people from only 30 miles away may not fully understand every word or phrase let alone regional accents.

I must remind you, especially when used by actresses, the audience usually find some British accents attractive.

 

On 06/05/2023 at 17:53, nta16 said:

it was supplied, modified and fitted by 'the conversion specialists' otherwise known by me as f...ing lying con-men but very highly regarded by many others including a famous car TV personality.

So, is there a chance to see your old car on TV? I watch some British tv shows related to cars including wheeler dealers and some others.

I'm old enough to know that, the TV is all about entertainment and let's say, 90% what is shown is not real.

Also, with your experience on the cars, if you say something is fake, I believe you. Not the TV.

 

On 06/05/2023 at 17:53, nta16 said:

HP valves are ego figures, highest does not mean best for overall running, a flat high torque curve is better.  Apart from after the second  rolling road session when I was getting improved parts and all the servicing was paying off all subsequent sessions the figures reduced because of a change of rollers, changing in UK fuel and as the car was aged and wore.  Last rolling road session, with real figures given by a proper Austin/BMC/BL A and B-series engine builder and tuner rather than some that extend the figures for egos, running on 95 octane E5 (could have higher if set for and using 99 octane E0 as I often did) - 80.62 hp at 5,442.  Torque 86.28 lbft at 3,297 and reasonably level from 3,200-4,400.  Book claim when new would have been 64hp and 72 lbft.

I knew the 1.3 version's engine power is close to my car so I asked the actual value to be able compare what I see from the video while the car is accelerating.  I guessed right. It is more powerful than factory stock.

 

 

[nta16]

21 hours ago, R_Blue said:

Fine by me. I can understand most of it even without subtitles.

That might prove how strong our local accents are, local-yokels. 😄

 

 

21 hours ago, R_Blue said:

So, is there a chance to see your old car on TV?

 No way.  Having a car on TV involves hours of waiting around doing nothing, some journalist have no proper respect for other people's property, unless it's a commercial move being featured is more about the owners ego.  Which can be a laugh as they and or their vehicle might only be a very fleeting appearance, perhaps even in the very background or often not used in the show at all.

 

My mate with the Westie was asked to arrange some "classic" cars from the club at a sprint circuit a reasonable drive away, I told him I would not waste my time and suggested he did not bother either as he wanted to promote the club.  I told him he would be lucky if they got the club's name right and the club cars would only be as background for the show's featured car and that was if the any of the shooting in the show which it might not.  The event was cancelled a few weeks before as the star was said to be ill and never took place later.

 

There are plenty of companies that specialise in providing vehicles for films, TV and advertising.

 

 

21 hours ago, R_Blue said:

I watch some British tv shows related to cars including wheeler dealers and some others.

I'm old enough to know that, the TV is all about entertainment and let's say, 90% what is shown is not real.

Also, with your experience on the cars, if you say something is fake, I believe you. Not the TV.

Mike Brewer is the Patron of the club I am in so I will not put about that show specifically but generally, certainly now at least, I would not say things are fake, in the past many shows had set up bits that could be called fake perhaps back then.  Now and in the past much of the work actually done is not mentioned or shown giving a much over-simplified impression to the general public of what is needed and done .  Costings are usually still 'optimistic' even now.

 

 

21 hours ago, R_Blue said:

I knew the 1.3 version's engine power is close to my car so I asked the actual value to be able compare what I see from the video while the car is accelerating.  I guessed right. It is more powerful than factory stock.

I was not driving the Midget at all hard in the video and a standard 1275cc, or 1098cc, would look like it was going the same, I think the noisy exhaust makes it seem like it is going quicker perhaps than it actually is, the cars we were behind in the video were not going fast and I only overtook one lorry and the camera was off then.  With some of the changes over the years the car was not as nippy as it was years before after first fully sorting it and even then most even modest modern family cars were quicker and faster, but without giving the same feelings.

 

One thing to remember is whilst your Foreman is light by modern standards the Midget is lighter still so will pick up road speed quicker and the reasonably flat torque curve the Midget had.

 

Edited 8 May, 2023 by nta16

[R_Blue]

On 08/05/2023 at 23:28, nta16 said:

Mike Brewer is the Patron of the club I am in

Impossible! Now if you tell me this, I think either you are a noble or someone famous like Mr.Brewer or you live in a really humble folk. Because, in where I live, if someone becomes famous, they become like gods. They have no business among mere mortals.

 

On 08/05/2023 at 23:28, nta16 said:

Now and in the past much of the work actually done is not mentioned or shown giving a much over-simplified impression to the general public of what is needed and done .  Costings are usually still 'optimistic' even now.

That's exactly what I was mentioning about. That's called "TV magic". They always try to give the audience "an alternate reality feeling which is better than actual reality" In other words, what is shown on the tv is usually an alternate pretty reality with sugar on top. But, still it's not real. I'm not complaining. That's just how entertainment business works.

Sometimes I see things like removal of a 40 years old bolt and say: "Hey you are not removing that bolt after long years of neglect, it's been removed and maybe replaced before the show" but I know, that's not the point of the show.

 

I learned many useful tips from wheeler dealers. I like the show and also Mike Brewer. He is fun and knows his stuff well.

I think some people who are watching the show, interested in fixing cars but never actually did something on a car maybe other than changing a wheel or bulbs.

I was like that in the past. I know how I was thinking before doing some "harder work" on the car and how I think now.

I think older episodes of the show with Ed China is more to my liking now and newer ones are more to my previous version in the past.

Foe example; in newer episodes, usually everything is so clean and we are talking about 30-40 years old cars. Again it's not a complain.

Only thing I can complain is, I don't remember if they ever included a Škoda. 😞

 

 

[nta16]

9 hours ago, R_Blue said:

I think either you are a noble or someone famous like Mr.Brewer or you live in a really humble folk. Because, in where I live, if someone becomes famous, they become like gods. They have no business among mere mortals.

Mike Brewer is only a minor niche celebrity he would be unknown to more 99.9999999% of people.  Like you, I and absolutely everyone in the whole world he is a mere mortal.  I have never understood any type of hero worship or celebrity, if you want to celebrate anyone then it should be doctors, nurses, firefighters, police, care workers and essential workers as they are the people you really need in life,  Entertainers are good but not of much use in real crisis.

 

It was Ed China and Ant Anstead (now still 'Elvis'?) that done the mechanics and one of the reason's Ed China left was because the mechanical side was getting less and less for more entertainment.  Give how long the show is it cannot show you much, just doing one  job on a vehicle might take hours without the requirements of filming.  Lots of work is done off camera it would always have to be that way.

 

Ed China although very tall is very down to earth, when not performing at a show he just walks about like a mere mortal, unlike some others, than Richard Hammond really fancies himself and thinks he is a lot more than he really is and as for Jeremy Clarkson when you see him you realise they can stack **** that high, he really is loathsome full of self-importance and feels very self-entitled, good entertainer but like us all with flaws as a person just that he seems to really embrace some of his flaws, he is one of these celebrities/ "heroes" that asks for some sort of (generous) payment to do 'free' work for charity, but then many do.

 

[nta16]

On 28/04/2023 at 20:30, nta16 said:

Though in reality as the two fluids do not mix so one will push the other out with flush changing after draining the existing, you just need to avoid any pockets of moisture being trapped in the system.

I saw my mate and my old 1973 (year) Midget yesterday, he has it looking and going better than I did, I notice when the bonnet was lifted that he had put DoT 5 silicone fluid in the brakes and clutch systems.  He said he did not clean the brake system (clutch system was apart and new piping) he just did the usual (Gunson) Eezibleed with the new silicone fluid pushing out and replacing the old DoT 4.  No problems with brakes or clutch.  Still no problems from putting DoT 5 silicone in his 1970 (year) "classic" 25+ years ago.

 

Both cars use similar brake parts as the Foreman.

 

Edited 21 May, 2023 by nta16
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