Car Park Fires, Transporters / Ships, any fires, an EV,s involved or not thread, were they the cause just there and so made fighting the fire harder.

[Graham Butcher]

11 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Another video emerged from a different angle, showing license plate:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1712232395049422942

 

The paint on the ground match Luton airport promo page I posted earlier.

 

 

The vehicle is a 2014 diesel, not hybrid of any kind.

 

Looks like it's just been abandoned whilst driving. Very unfortunate to have happened in middle of the car park. Would not have been on the news if it were at side of the road.

OK maybe this example will show you that you cannot rely on the fact because the DVLA or witnesses are saying it was 2014 diesel Range Rover, that it is what it is. You all have so eagerly jumped to the conclusion that is all the proof that is required for it not to an EV car.

 

OK, let me show this link then to a Citroen DS classic car that has been converted to a full-blown EV and apart from the owner has made up a special badge to show is an electric car, nobody would ever know, it even has retained the original gearbox and the interior and exterior has not changed at all, even the charging socket has been neatly hidden behind the original petrol flap and even beneath the original petrol cap.

 

Like I said, it always pays to keep an open mind on things unless you actually 100% know for sure and unless you know the owner, then you don't know for sure, do you?

 

Guess what, I have even checked with the DVLA and it is showing on their database as being PETROL driven as this screen print shows. What it does show however is that although the car was made in 1972, it was registered again in 2002 but that might just mean that was a restoration or imported into the UK.

 

Hopefully, this will put an end to all the know-it-alls who have such closed minds that they just cannot even consider any other possibility. Geez, is it any wonder the UK is in the state it is if people are so willing to believe anything rather than ask a few questions and think for themselves?

 

Try stepping outside your box for a while and spend sometime looking back into the box from a different perspective and then things might not look so black and white, but more of a grey colour.

 

Edited 12 October, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[@Lee]

Christallduckingmighty🤦 

 

Nobody's denying that cars can be converted to EV ffs. Just that it's been reported as a diesel, Beds Fire Service said it was a diesel, there's been links about JLR RRs problems with fires but nooooooo that's not good enough for Graham is it?

Seriously, get a grip rather than clutching at straws in whatever desperate point it is you're trying to make. 

Edited 12 October, 2023 by @Lee

[J.R.]

Here endeth the sermonizing!

[J.R.]

@@Lee

 

Lee, you seem to have access to plenty of Viz cartoon PDF's, do you have any of a Simian Semen powered Range Rover?

 

26 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Try stepping outside your box for a while and spend sometime looking back into the box from a different perspective and then things might not look so black and white, but more of a grey colour.

 

 

 

I tried but it still looks Bronze coloured to me.

[Graham Butcher]

10 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Here endeth the sermonizing!

 

10 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Here endeth the sermonizing!

What's up then, can't bear to think that the cause might not be as clear-cut as you thought?

Edited 12 October, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[@Lee]

8 minutes ago, J.R. said:

@@Lee

 

Lee, you seem to have access to plenty of Viz cartoon PDF's, do you have any of a Simian Semen powered Range Rover?

 

Only Mickey's moped I'm afraid

 

[Graham Butcher]

2 hours ago, J.R. said:

 

No I can't.

 

They are and fuel burning on the ground having run in the direction of the floor fall is exactly what it looks like, the colour of the flames also although I dont see black smoke, I am guessing that the side walls are open like many multi-story car parks or they have a désenfumage system.

The side walls are none existent, it is just an open steel cage, much the same as most MSCPs.

[Graham Butcher]

45 minutes ago, @Lee said:

Christallduckingmighty🤦 

 

Nobody's denying that cars can be converted to EV ffs. Just that it's been reported as a diesel, Beds Fire Service said it was a diesel, there's been links about JLR RRs problems with fires but nooooooo that's not good enough for Graham is it?

Seriously, get a grip rather than clutching at straws in whatever desperate point it is you're trying to make. 

I'm not trying to make a point in either for diesel or EV, I just don't know and neither does anyone, just thinking outside the box and using my observations, while still keeping an open mind on it. Like I have consistently said, it will all come out in due course, either way, or are you going to say that I have never said that as well? 

 

I suppose you all think I have forged the DVLA report for the Citroen, just go online and test it out for yourself Check if a vehicle is taxed - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) and you will see it is true. So if that is true, why can't it be true for the Range Rover as well, please explain why it is not a possibility?

Edited 12 October, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[Ootohere]

We used to have to go the the Licencing office with cars radically modified with paper work and SVA or IVA and receipts and lists of parts and Engine Numbers and stuff, 

then they shut the Offices, you dealt with people without a clue who changed the class of a vehicle etc. The VED or as it was Road Tax.

Now you hear so little about it, 

actually the whole thing is the blind leading the blind.

 

If i was still into offroaders i would have a converted one to electric.

 

 

 

[@Lee]

One for Graham. Maybe one for when you're getting your car ready for winter maybe

 

 

 

 

 

[domhnall]

https://www.motortrend.com/features/you-are-wrong-about-ev-fires/#:~:text=With an average of 16,in 1%2C300 chance of fire.

if we're serious about tackling Vhecile fires then we probably need to eliminate the use of flammable liquids

 

[@Lee]

How do we know they hadn't been converted to EV and the Swedish motor authorities hadn't been informed? IT COULD HAPPEN! 🤔🤪🤣

Edited 12 October, 2023 by @Lee

[wyx087]

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Try stepping outside your box for a while and spend sometime looking back into the box from a different perspective

I suggest you do the same and look back at what you are suggesting: "there is only one possible source for the flames to burn like that, therefore it must be that"

 

That horse have 4 legs, therefore all creature with 4 legs are horses.

  

6 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

It does appear to have the hallmarks of an EV type in the video, but I may be wrong. I just wonder if it has been converted either into a full-blown EV by someone like Electric Classic Cars or one of the many other conversion companies or maybe a DIY conversion, and nobody had informed the DVLA? No doubt in the fullness of time the truth will emerge one way or the other.

 

5 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Can you not see from the fire is shooting out sideways to the left of the car looks very similar to the many online videos of confirmed EV fires where the flames shoot out to the side like a flamethrower?

 

[Graham Butcher]

55 minutes ago, @Lee said:

One for Graham. Maybe one for when you're getting your car ready for winter maybe

 

 

 

 

 

Haha, how about Frozen by Madonna then, here are the lyrics, simply change the words "Heart" for the word "mind" 

 

Frozen
Madonna

You only see what your eyes want to see
How can life be what you want it to be?
You're frozen
When your heart's not open

You're so consumed with how much you get
You waste your time with hate and regret
You're broken
When your heart's not open

Mmm mmm mmm
If I could melt your heart
Mmm mmm mmm
We'd never be apart
Mmm mmm mmm
Give yourself to me
Mmm mmm mmm
You hold the key

Now there's no point in placing the blame
And you should know I suffer the same
If I lose you
My heart will be broken

Love is a bird, she needs to fly
Let all the hurt inside of you die
You're frozen
When your heart's not open

Mmm mmm mmm
If I could melt your heart
Mmm mmm mmm
We'd never be apart
Mmm mmm mmm
Give yourself to me
Mmm mmm mmm
You hold the key

You only see what your eyes want to see
How can life be what you want it to be?
You're frozen
When your heart's not open

Mmm mmm mmm
If I could melt your heart
Mmm mmm mmm
We'd never be apart
Mmm mmm mmm
Give yourself to me
Mmm mmm mmm
You hold the key

If I could melt your heart
Mmm mmm mmm
We'd never be apart
Mmm mmm mmm
Give yourself to me
Mmm mmm mmm
You hold the key
If I could melt your heart

Songwriters: Madonna Ciccone, Patrick Leonard. For non-commercial use only.

[Graham Butcher]

3 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I suggest you do the same and look back at what you are suggesting: "there is only one possible source for the flames to burn like that, therefore it must be that"

 

That horse have 4 legs, therefore all creature with 4 legs are horses.

  

 

 

Once again, twisting what I said and totalling ignoring what I said. You are also ignoring the possibility of a fuel leak being subjected to high pressure of nitrous oxide, or to the possibility of the car having been converted to run on LPG like many Range Rovers have, don't believe me, ask Google and find out. How many times do I have to say it, I never said it was an EV, just that the fire on the video looked like that from an EV. I don't actually know if the car was an EV convert, any more than you don't know that it wasn't. All I have said is that it is possible, and I have given you had facts that despite the DVLA database showing that it was a diesel, that might not be the case, read the database result for that Citroen which shows it as a petrol but it is so clearly not.

 

If you really cannot accept that then there is no point in continuing the discussion is there?

[@Lee]

Maybe the Opel Zafira had been converted to EV and nobody told the Irish motor vehicle authorities 🤔 

 

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30959872.html

 

 

[Graham Butcher]

7 minutes ago, @Lee said:

Maybe the Opel Zafira had been converted to EV and nobody told the Irish motor vehicle authorities 🤔 

 

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30959872.html

 

 

Carry on poking fun at me for having an inquiring mind and looking for alternative scenarios. But what if the forensic investigation proves that the car was not quite as you all seem to think it is, will you all be eating a large slice of humble pie and apologising to me? Or is your signature line just a crude joke when you say "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later that debt is paid".

 

I know that I'm not telling any lies, I'm looking at other possibilities and they are based on what I can see and using my knowledge and experience, what are you using? 

[@Lee]

Norway, January 2020. Norway has a very high uptake of EVe so this one *must* be due to an EV surely 🤔 

 

"The vehicle garage in question has capacity for 3,000 cars and was nearly full when the fire started, according to broadcaster NRK.

The cause is unknown and under investigation, but local police said they were notified at about 3:30 p.m. that an electric car was on fire in the parking garage."

 

But wait 

 

"Local media reports later said the fire started in an Opel Zafira with an internal combustion engine."

 

https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/hundreds-cars-destroyed-fire-norway-airport 

 

I fear the only one who'll be eating humble pie is you, Graham. 

Whether or not you will take a slice yourself remains to be seen but, given the law of averages, is it (a) more likely than not the reports of the RR was a diesel are correct or (b) your theory that the RR was an EV that nobody informed the DVLA of?

I think you know the answer. I mean for Chrissakes even the Daily Mail/ Mail Online reported it as a diesel RR and they have a very obvious anti EV bias. 

 

 

 

Edited 13 October, 2023 by @Lee

[Graham Butcher]

3 minutes ago, @Lee said:

Norway, January 2020. Norway has a very high uptake of EVe so this one *must* be due to an EV surely 🤔 

 

"The vehicle garage in question has capacity for 3,000 cars and was nearly full when the fire started, according to broadcaster NRK.

The cause is unknown and under investigation, but local police said they were notified at about 3:30 p.m. that an electric car was on fire in the parking garage."

 

But wait 

 

"Local media reports later said the fire started in an Opel Zafira with an internal combustion engine."

 

https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/hundreds-cars-destroyed-fire-norway-airport 

 

I fear the only one who'll be look be eating humble pie is you, Graham. 

Whether or not you will take a slice yourself remains to be seen but, given the law of averages, is it (a) more likely than not the reports of the RR was a diesel are correct or (b) your theory that the RR was an EV that nobody informed the DVLA of?

I think you know the answer.

 

 

 

@@lee please do me a favour and go back and read what I actually said. I never said that it had been, but what if it had been and nobody informed the DVLA. Now I'm not a legal expert by any means, but I do believe that there is a world of différance between saying it is an EV and asking what if it had been converted. The first is a statement, the second is a question, and is that what I have been saying, I'm asking the questions what if, it was this or that etc as not many things in life are simple and straight forward as we like to think they are. The fireman making that statement could have been going on information that he was told, or he could have run that number plate that wyx087 posted, that allegedly came from someone on Twitter, E10EFL through the DVLA database and made the same possible mistake as you and others could be making and believing it to be correct.

 

Have you checked on that Citroen number plate that is on the car in the video with the DVLA database? If so, how do you account for that? If you just saw that car on the road or in a car park, you would automatically think it still had a petrol engine but as that video shows, it doesn't or do you all have some sort of superpowers?🙄

[Paws4Thot]

6 hours ago, domhnall said:

https://www.motortrend.com/features/you-are-wrong-about-ev-fires/#:~:text=With an average of 16,in 1%2C300 chance of fire.

if we're serious about tackling vehicle fires then we probably need to eliminate the use of flammable liquids

 

You mean liquids like "electricity"; like "bird nests"...? In the last 2 vehicle fires I've witnessed, one was an electrical fire in the ventilation fan controls (V**xh*11 Z@f1r@), and the other happened when a hot turbo set light to a recently built bird nest in the engine bay.

[wyx087]

7 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

what if

Hear me out.

 

What if it's a diesel and the ICE is liable to have faults that causes it to violently combust?

What if we can build cars that does not have extremely hot components that require heat shields for normal operation?

 

What if the very quick spread of fire is due to plastic fuel tanks are only required to hold highly flammable liquid, with flashpoint of <100c. for 2 min when exposed to flame?

What if this Luton airport car park fire was spread similar to Liverpool car park and all other previous car park fire?

 

nO, iT cOuLdN't PoSsIbLy Be. MuSt KeEp An "InQuIrInG mInD".

[lol-lol]

 

Dig in to it and very few car parks have sprinkler systems, even ones that are under apartment blocks and parts of shopping centres, makes you think.

 

Hopefully a quick change in policy and law needed here.  Foam might be better and more suited than water maybe with the increasing percentage of EVs and it may be difficult to get header tanks of tonnes of water up on the top decks of this car parks whereas foam systems might be more practical interms of weight and space if not cost.

 

[Graham Butcher]

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Hear me out.

 

What if it's a diesel and the ICE is liable to have faults that causes it to violently combust?

What if we can build cars that does not have extremely hot components that require heat shields for normal operation?

 

What if the very quick spread of fire is due to plastic fuel tanks are only required to hold highly flammable liquid, with flashpoint of <100c. for 2 min when exposed to flame?

What if this Luton airport car park fire was spread similar to Liverpool car park and all other previous car park fire?

 

nO, iT cOuLdN't PoSsIbLy Be. MuSt KeEp An "InQuIrInG mInD".

 

 

I always hear you out, I don't block anyone on any forums, we all have a right to our views, and we can all learn from each other. Yes I accept that diesel and petrol cars can and do catch fire, I have even somewhere on here mentioned diesel buses catching fire, so I'm not in denial of the fact that this can and indeed does happen. However, there is something in the nature of the way that fire in the video is actually burning that rings alarm bells in my head, having been involved with diesel fires in the past.

 

Yes it does seem very likely that the fuel tank is made from plastic, it looks way too complex for it to be anything else, but that said there are so many variations depending on exactly which model it and the precise age of the car as some did have metal tanks and the exact locations of the tanks have moved over time again depending on which model and age, but the tanks have always been by the rear wheels and the pump has been in the tank. So with the assumption that the engine is switched off, the fuel flow would also be off. If the tank was plastic and leaking, it drip beneath the tank, then way does neither of the videos (front or rear view) show any signs of fire around the rear wheels beneath the car if the fire that can be seen low down on the ground to the nearside of the car, is as has been suggested by others is liquid fuel on fire, then it would also be on fire at the point of where the leak hits the ground? 

 

If you check my post in the general automotive chat section, I made zero reference to the cause of the fire and indeed I would not have made any reference to it now, had it not been for the video which started those alarm bells and starting me asking questions about it. 

 

Now, please hear me out a bit longer...IF the car had been converted to add Nitrous Oxide, or LPG, or CNG, are you going to deny that these are under pressure and any leak in the engine compartment could be causing the flames to leap from the nearside of the car? Watch the video in slow motion, and you can clearly see the flames shoot out horizontally at times, just as EV batteries do in other videos.

 

Just may be then you might understand that I'm not saying that it was EV battery that caused it, but it could be any one of those scenarios or a freak accident and if I have to eat humble pie in the end when the official report gets released, then I will do so gladly, I have never been afraid to admit that I can be wrong. 

 

 

 

[J.R.]

Fire under bonnet for whatever reason like 99 percent are  melts fuel line  fuel drains from tank by gravity and runs downhill from there.  It looks exactly like every other ICE vehicle fire that I have seen and caused which is sadly far too many 

 

That's what comes from having a certain minority group all around you.

[Graham Butcher]

 

There does seem to be a few fires occurring in multi-storey car parks of late, I discovered this one in Brooklyn and notice how fast the fire appeared to spread and the very heavy thick black smoke which is exactly the kind of smoke that you would normally expect from fires involving lots of plastics, rubber and diesel fuel as these do not burn efficiently and give loads of soot particles in the process, this was not visible on the mobile phone footage of the Range Rover when the fire started at Luton.

 

The bangs that can be heard are unlikely to be fuel tanks exploding as there is no corresponding flash nor is there any visible flames as you would expect a exploding tank to be a massive fireball, what they are more to be are the windows being blown out and the tyres exploding. Plastic fuel tanks are more likely to droop and melt, allowing fuel to leak across the ground, metal tanks I believe would more likely to explode, but in practise it is more likely the rubber/plastic hose from the filler point to the tank will give way first and the fuel just burn off.

 

What lessons can we learn from these fires, like the one at BoomTown Fair Festival near Winchester in Hampshire back in 2016 where cars were parked in a field, the Liverpool Arena multi-storey car park etc. Well first straight off the bat we need to be giving a far greater clearance between cars in all directions and covered car parks, the addition of a proper sprinkler system would also be an added benefit. It would also, I think, be an advantage to provide much more headroom as the low ceiling heights hold the heat down adding to the easy spreading of the fire.

 

I usually go to the Royal Air Tattoo at RAF Fairford every year and there, like most events, they try to pack as many cars as they can in and at the end of the day, there always seems to plenty of space of left unused, so they could allow greater spacings. Another thing that they do, and it has always amazed me that fires haven't happened there yet, they park these cars on areas of the airfield where the grass has not been mown short. Now catalytic convertors and diesel particulate filters get incredibly hot, especially if the cars have been driven any great distance. Maybe that might have been a factor in the BoomTown festival fire, maybe burning grass helped it to spread?

 

Also watch the second video of a car on fire on the roof of a hospital in the States, notice how long it took the fire dept to actually tackle the blaze. Lessons do need to be learnt, leaking petrol from the SUV can be seen on fire spreading across the roof, aided by the water being used, foam would have been better.

 

 

 

Edited 14 October, 2023 by Graham Butcher