EFB or AGM Battery ?

[nta16]

(ETA: Warrior193 posted whilst I was still typing so I'd put some of the same but have left it in here.)

 

For the Kia if the bonnet is alarmed and alarm set it'd go off otherwise I've used a smart charge and my 20+ year-old Optimate charger on my neighbour's Kia (with an old small battery) every couple of months or less as the car is almost a garden ornament.  Check the Kia's Owner's Manual (it's not against the law to do so as some seem to believe) for battery charging.

 

For your Optimate perhaps it is undersize and/or not left on long enough for your battery or are you sure the power socket you plug it into is permanently live and doesn't switch off with the ignition switched off.   "One thing to note about this accessory, is that you will need your 12V socket to be live, even when the vehicle is turned off. So this accessory will not work if your vehicle has ignition shut off." - https://www.ctek.com/uk/news-archive/battery-charging-without-even-needing-to-lift-the-hood

 

 Have you checked to see if your car was part of the recall (well those that VW will admit to) to do with battery or battery system? - https://www.skoda-auto.com/services/recall-campaigns

 

Perhaps the warranty replacement battery was a cheap or inappropriate for your vehicle and it's use (or perhaps not on either).

 

Halfords seem high priced on the less expensive batteries and reasonable on the more expensive and better batteries, I'd suggest you get the best appropriate battery you can but be aware Halfolds seem to use their own system for battery numbers (e.g. the three or four digit number) so do cross-reference any battery their database throws up.  Another neighbour got a Halfords battery using their database and it had a different hold down to the car and was lower capacity at higher price than the ones from elsewhere.

 

[gregoir]

5 hours ago, nta16 said:

(ETA: Warrior193 posted whilst I was still typing so I'd put some of the same but have left it in here.)

 

For the Kia if the bonnet is alarmed and alarm set it'd go off otherwise I've used a smart charge and my 20+ year-old Optimate charger on my neighbour's Kia (with an old small battery) every couple of months or less as the car is almost a garden ornament.  Check the Kia's Owner's Manual (it's not against the law to do so as some seem to believe) for battery charging.

 

For your Optimate perhaps it is undersize and/or not left on long enough for your battery or are you sure the power socket you plug it into is permanently live and doesn't switch off with the ignition switched off.   "One thing to note about this accessory, is that you will need your 12V socket to be live, even when the vehicle is turned off. So this accessory will not work if your vehicle has ignition shut off." - https://www.ctek.com/uk/news-archive/battery-charging-without-even-needing-to-lift-the-hood

 

 Have you checked to see if your car was part of the recall (well those that VW will admit to) to do with battery or battery system? - https://www.skoda-auto.com/services/recall-campaigns

 

Perhaps the warranty replacement battery was a cheap or inappropriate for your vehicle and it's use (or perhaps not on either).

 

Halfords seem high priced on the less expensive batteries and reasonable on the more expensive and better batteries, I'd suggest you get the best appropriate battery you can but be aware Halfolds seem to use their own system for battery numbers (e.g. the three or four digit number) so do cross-reference any battery their database throws up.  Another neighbour got a Halfords battery using their database and it had a different hold down to the car and was lower capacity at higher price than the ones from elsewhere.

 

Thanks for your comments.The power socket in my Octavia is permanently live, so the Optimate  functions.  The  Skoda is way out of warranty. I did prod them about the faulty OE batteries at the time. The unlocked Kia's car alarm goes off when the bonnet is open and the battery charger is connected. That's why I use the jump pack on occasion.

[Warrior193]

1 hour ago, gregoir said:

Thanks for your comments.The power socket in my Octavia is permanently live, so the Optimate  functions.  The  Skoda is way out of warranty. I did prod them about the faulty OE batteries at the time. The unlocked Kia's car alarm goes off when the bonnet is open and the battery charger is connected. That's why I use the jump pack on occasion.

Why not try putting it on charge with the hood closed? There is often a gap sufficient to pass a charger mains supply cable to outside the vehicle. This is what I do with the Octavia and Fabia.

[nta16]

2 hours ago, gregoir said:

The  Skoda is way out of warranty.

That doesn't matter if the Recall hasn't been done.  Recall 97CU was carried out on my wife's 2015 Fabia a couple of months before the annual service in 2018 so I guess, as I can't remember, that the Dealership or VWSkoda asked my wife to take her car in for the check, I've no idea if they done anything my wife doesn't bother with such details.

 

 

2 hours ago, gregoir said:

The unlocked Kia's car alarm goes off when the bonnet is open and the battery charger is connected.

Consult the Kia's Owner Manual or follow what others have done.

 

Good luck.

 

[fabdavrav]

If you have the "stop start" function, you have to fit either an EFB or an AGM, as they can cope with the heavy/deep discharge cycles & provide more power compared to "basic lead acid type".

 

EFB is cheaper, AGM is safer as you can turn the case upside down & even crack the case & no liquid will come out as the liquid is held in the Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM).....& they cost more because of this.

 

The MQB platform battery tray has 3 positions for the battery hold down bracket.....& VAG usually fit the size down from what the car ideally should have...

 

Ignore the Ah/rating on the Factory batteries as VAG use strange ratings on a standard battery case size designation.

 

I ripped out my factory mid sized Battery case size H5/027/Group 47, 59Ah/320A (DIN), EFB type battery & replaced it with the bigger case size H6/096/Group 48, 70Ah, 760A CCA (EN/SAE) AGM in January 2015yr....still going strong....I wrote a "how to guide" here...all info in first post:-

How to retro-fit a bigger capacity battery to a Mk7 Golf | GOLFMK7 - VW GTI MKVII Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVII Forum

 

Mind you I have a Ctek charger that does normal & AGM types & also works as a 12V supply. There is usually gaps between the rubber seals on the bonnet & the top of the grill & the wires will go though that without being caught so you can close the car completely when charging.

 

When you swap the battery  you need to code the BCM as per my thread above:-

 

VCDS coding required
From the Main screen:-
Select Control Module [Select]
[19-CAN Gateway]
Advanced Functions screen:-
[Adaptions-10]
New value choice screen:-
Change the following four channels, inputting the relevant data about the new battery.
IDE03256-MAS06105-Battery adaptation-Rated battery capacity
IDE03256-MAS06106-Battery adaptation-Battery technology
IDE03256-MAS06107-Battery adaptation-Battery manufacturer
IDE03256-MAS06108-Battery adaptation-Battery Serial Number

When you click on "Battery technology" (using VCDS 21.3.0) a drop down list appears with the following options (= actual meaning):-
Wet = Standard Lead Acid
Fleece = Standard A.G.M.
Wickel6V
Wickel12V
Ultracap
Gel = Standard Gel Lead Acid
Lithium ions = Standard LiFePO4
EFB = Standard E.F.B.
Binary - AGM = "Bipolar" A.G.M. type
EFB+ = E.F.B. "Plus" type
Not_assigned_10
Not_assigned_11
Not_assigned_12
Not_assigned_13
Not_assigned_14
Unknown

According to various sources of information, including numerous car scans & threads on Ross-Tech, "Fleece" is for standard AGM batteries, "EFB" is for standard EFB batteries, & "Wet" is for standard lead acid batteries, as these settings are used at the factory. The setting of "Binary - AGM" is apparently for specialist "Bipolar AGM" batteries! Also the drop down list is from VCDS & not generated by your car's BCM, therefore, your car may not support all the options on the list, & the BCM will reject the value when you tell it to accept it!

Battery BEM codes are now redundant with the above separate channels. The most important channels are:- Rated battery capacity, Battery technology, & Battery Serial Number. For the Battery Serial Number, just change one digit of the old one. This channel tells the BCM that a new battery has been installed & to relearn the new battery & forget any “learnt values” for the old battery!

 

 

Edited 16 December, 2023 by fabdavrav

[gregoir]

23 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

If you have the "stop start" function, you have to fit either an EFB or an AGM, as they can cope with the heavy/deep discharge cycles & provide more power compared to "basic lead acid type".

 

EFB is cheaper, AGM is safer as you can turn the case upside down & even crack the case & no liquid will come out as the liquid is held in the Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM).....& they cost more because of this.

 

The MQB platform battery tray has 3 positions for the battery hold down bracket.....& VAG usually fit the size down from what the car ideally should have...

 

Ignore the Ah/rating on the Factory batteries as VAG use strange ratings on a standard battery case size designation.

 

I ripped out my factory mid sized Battery case size H5/027/Group 47, 59Ah/320A (DIN), EFB type battery & replaced it with the bigger case size H6/096/Group 48, 70Ah, 760A CCA (EN/SAE) AGM in January 2015yr....still going strong....I wrote a "how to guide" here...all info in first post:-

How to retro-fit a bigger capacity battery to a Mk7 Golf | GOLFMK7 - VW GTI MKVII Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVII Forum

 

Mind you I have a Ctek charger that does normal & AGM types & also works as a 12V supply. There is usually gaps between the rubber seals on the bonnet & the top of the grill & the wires will go though that without being caught so you can close the car completely when charging.

 

When you swap the battery  you need to code the BCM as per my thread above:-

 

VCDS coding required
From the Main screen:-
Select Control Module [Select]
[19-CAN Gateway]
Advanced Functions screen:-
[Adaptions-10]
New value choice screen:-
Change the following four channels, inputting the relevant data about the new battery.
IDE03256-MAS06105-Battery adaptation-Rated battery capacity
IDE03256-MAS06106-Battery adaptation-Battery technology
IDE03256-MAS06107-Battery adaptation-Battery manufacturer
IDE03256-MAS06108-Battery adaptation-Battery Serial Number

When you click on "Battery technology" (using VCDS 21.3.0) a drop down list appears with the following options (= actual meaning):-
Wet = Standard Lead Acid
Fleece = Standard A.G.M.
Wickel6V
Wickel12V
Ultracap
Gel = Standard Gel Lead Acid
Lithium ions = Standard LiFePO4
EFB = Standard E.F.B.
Binary - AGM = "Bipolar" A.G.M. type
EFB+ = E.F.B. "Plus" type
Not_assigned_10
Not_assigned_11
Not_assigned_12
Not_assigned_13
Not_assigned_14
Unknown

According to various sources of information, including numerous car scans & threads on Ross-Tech, "Fleece" is for standard AGM batteries, "EFB" is for standard EFB batteries, & "Wet" is for standard lead acid batteries, as these settings are used at the factory. The setting of "Binary - AGM" is apparently for specialist "Bipolar AGM" batteries! Also the drop down list is from VCDS & not generated by your car's BCM, therefore, your car may not support all the options on the list, & the BCM will reject the value when you tell it to accept it!

Battery BEM codes are now redundant with the above separate channels. The most important channels are:- Rated battery capacity, Battery technology, & Battery Serial Number. For the Battery Serial Number, just change one digit of the old one. This channel tells the BCM that a new battery has been installed & to relearn the new battery & forget any “learnt values” for the old battery!

 

 

Thanks for your detailed reply. A pity the Skoda dealership couldn't cope with the failing battery a few years ago.

[gregoir]

On 14/12/2023 at 15:17, ApertureS said:

The car maintains the battery at different levels depending on the driving state in the moment as well as other factors.

 

You keep using very non specific terms like ‘voltage were normal for the system’ , how do you know what is and isn’t normal for the system and what the car wants? It could be perfectly within the cars tolerances.

 

alternators have came a long way from being used to simply pump out as much current as possible and a good alternator will vary its output from 12v-15v in some cases all to support better emissions, more power, regenerative braking, better battery life, micro hybrid systems and more.

 

if the start stop isn’t working there can be a variety of reasons and these need looking into using a diagnostic computer to see any faults or live data.

 

im still none the wiser as to what’s actually wrong with your battery other than you think something is wrong based on what?

Just found your reply. The main dealer diagnosed and tested that the previous battery, alternator and control systems were all ok. And talked me through all the system parameters.  Despite that, the Stop/Start system never working on the road. I took it back repeatedly . It was only weeks before the warranty expired that I told them there was a faulty batch of batteries, reported here on Briskoda. Thanks!

After the new battery was fitted, the Stop/Start system worked frequently, even during a short journey. It is not working thus nowadays, which makes me believe the battery is on the way out. The Optimate charger is connected, and some lights are flashing, which means pulse charging.

[ApertureS]

3 minutes ago, gregoir said:

Just found your reply. The main dealer diagnosed and tested that the previous battery, alternator and control systems were all ok. And talked me through all the system parameters.  Despite that, the Stop/Start system never working on the road. I took it back repeatedly . It was only weeks before the warranty expired that I told them there was a faulty batch of batteries, reported here on Briskoda. Thanks!

After the new battery was fitted, the Stop/Start system worked frequently, even during a short journey. It is not working thus nowadays, which makes me believe the battery is on the way out. The Optimate charger is connected, and some lights are flashing, which means pulse charging.

How are you connecting the charger?

 

we need to know specifically where you are putting the positive and negative connectors.

[gregoir]

4 minutes ago, ApertureS said:

How are you connecting the charger?

 

we need to know specifically where you are putting the positive and negative connectors.

Plugging the Optimate into the permanently live power socket in the centre console using an appropriately polarised plug.

[nta16]

2 hours ago, gregoir said:

Plugging the Optimate into the permanently live power socket in the centre console using an appropriately polarised plug.

I think what ApertureS might be getting at, and apologies if I'm wrong, is that it might not be telling the computer program that the battery is being charged as it's not connected (as in Owner's Manual) to the "ground point of the engine" before the battery and the black connector at the negative battery post that monitors battery charging and as you do such short infrequent journeys the program,  isn't able to pick up on the charging or battery state (if the programing does this "learning").

 

A = the post

 

Images from 2016/5 Octavia III Owner's Manual

 

 

Edited 17 December, 2023 by nta16

[nta16]

I no longer have the original photo so I've had to crop from the one I lifted off this site and posted earlier in the thread.

 

It's not a very clear image now and didn't show that the battery charger/maintainer negative clip is connected to battery to body cable where it's retained by a painted nut on my wife's car (brown arrow).  Circled  in orange is the battery monitor thingy thing (forget what it's called).

 

[gregoir]

48 minutes ago, nta16 said:

I think what ApertureS might be getting at, and apologies if I'm wrong, is that it might not be telling the computer program that the battery is being charged as it's not connected (as in Owner's Manual) to the "ground point of the engine" before the battery and the black connector at the negative battery post that monitors battery charging and as you do such short infrequent journeys the program,  isn't able to pick up on the charging or battery state (if the programing does this "learning").

 

A = the post

 

Images from 2016/5 Octavia III Owner's Manual

 

 

Okay thanks for that. It was just a convenient use of existing charger and connectors. I've now used my clip on smart charger as described.

[fabdavrav]

Photo from by above mentioned thread....bottom right...you always (for cars with stop/start) connect the positive "+" wire of the charger to the "+" on the battery....& then the negative "-" wire of the charger to the bayonet fitting "-" on the bulkhead...

 

Forget using the 12v sockets/cigarette lighter sockets on these cars with stop/start...

 

[nta16]

Personally I'd not use the Pulse Repair setting unless the battery was really low (at or beyond "death's door") and I've no idea how much the VW computer program would like it.  Up to you what you do but I would just have it on the normal 12v setting and let the charger do its stuff (connected as per charger manual and car's Owner's Manual).

 

Note the Owner's Manual has 0.1 or lower for charging so an 8-amp (or lower) charger for say a 79 (aH) capacity battery, going a bit over isn't the end of the world particularly with a "smart" charger and maintainer, going lower will take longer (but I believe is better) .

 

I personally prefer to go lower and charge for long as I've found over decades of charging my neighbour's car batteries, some of them "dead" (for a couple of years in the garage for one) that a very lower and very slow charge goes deeper and extends the battery's use and life longer.  Some (well one) disputes this but you can look up battery manufacturer's recommendations for yourself,  I put my decades of experience but perhaps I'm wrong and fooling myself as over that time I have failed to revive a couple of very "dead" batteries, one with buckled plates in one cell.

 

I've only once IIRC needed to recharge a battery on one of my cars - then my wife bought this VW product and things changed a bit and I bought (another) new "smart" charger (I already had a 20 year old 1.8-amp Optimate and 30 year old 4-amp Bradex chargers) as the car does lots of short journeys so I do a few preventative chargers with (too late on one as battery start/stop illuminated, I won't let that happen again.

 

Edited 17 December, 2023 by nta16

[gregoir]

I only used pulse for a short while. My first time using this battery charger. Switched off unplugged from the mains and plugged in again  and let it do it's thing. Switched automatically to OFF after an hour while the plug in voltmeter indicated 14V. The charging lead fits in the gap above the headlight.  Disconnected the unit as I've gone out; the indicated volts dropped to 12.5V. I'll keep an eye on things.

Thanks for all the useful inputs.

[ApertureS]

2 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

Forget using the 12v sockets/cigarette lighter sockets on these cars with stop/start...

Sorry to say but not the case. The way the current monitor works is it monitors the return path to the battery. 

 

You can put the negative of a charger wherever you want on the car as long as its NOT the negative battery terminal. (and the location is rated for the correct current draw of course). Anywhere but the negative battery terminal is after the current monitor - including cigarette lighter, engine block and such.

 

The positive can go on any direct connection the positive side of the battery so the 12v socket is acceptable for this. 

[nta16]

28 minutes ago, gregoir said:

I only used pulse for a short while. My first time using this battery charger.

I'd not loose any sleep over it - and, if you didn't do so beforehand, despite what some think it is not illegal or immoral for a man to read an instruction book before using something. 😉

 

Edited 17 December, 2023 by nta16

[fabdavrav]

1 hour ago, ApertureS said:

Sorry to say but not the case. The way the current monitor works is it monitors the return path to the battery. 

 

You can put the negative of a charger wherever you want on the car as long as its NOT the negative battery terminal. (and the location is rated for the correct current draw of course). Anywhere but the negative battery terminal is after the current monitor - including cigarette lighter, engine block and such.

 

The positive can go on any direct connection the positive side of the battery so the 12v socket is acceptable for this. 

 

 

The Battery BCM is connected to fuse holder B (next to battery) which also has the connections for the Battery & the starter & starter relays....the 12V sockets are on fuseboard C (behind the glovebox on UK cars)....

 

I prefer to keep electrical paths as direct as possible....& I do know that you can use maintenance/supply plug-ins via the 12V sockets, & I see this as short term say 30mins whilst you do a battery swap..... doing a battery charge which can take 6hrs I prefer to use the main terminals as I stated above...

[fabdavrav]

5 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

 

 

 (on my MQB MK7 Golf) The Battery BCM is connected to fuse holder B (next to battery) which also has the connections for the Battery & the starter & starter relays....the 12V sockets are on fuseboard C (behind the glovebox on UK cars)....

 

I prefer to keep electrical paths as direct as possible....& I do know that you can use maintenance/supply plug-ins via the 12V sockets, & I see this as short term say 30mins whilst you do a battery swap..... doing a battery charge which can take 6hrs I prefer to use the main terminals as I stated above...

 

 

Don't know what happened there & can't delete this duplicate quoted post!...

 

Edited 17 December, 2023 by fabdavrav

[nta16]

3 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

doing a battery charge which can take 6hrs

or more, or a lot more

[fabdavrav]

11 hours ago, nta16 said:

or more, or a lot more

 

 

 

My Ctek charger takes 7hrs to do my 70Ah battery...😬....when its low...& by that time the charger cables & battery are nice & warm!!.....I wouldn't like to see that heat in the 12v socket & the wires from the centre console back to the Battery..!!!...😬

Edited 18 December, 2023 by fabdavrav
Clarity

[Breezy_Pete]

Sounds like CTEK have cheaped out a bit on their output cable thickness (or copper quality).

Edited 18 December, 2023 by Breezy_Pete

[fabdavrav]

44 minutes ago, Breezy_Pete said:

Sounds like CTEK have cheaped out a bit on their output cable thickness (or copper quality).

 

 

Doubt it..... its rated correctly for the output of the charger.....they are warm.....not hot...mind you the battery is nice & warm...but thats after 7hrs...& its a 70Ah AGM battery...& typical of any charger when left for that length of time when actually in a charging phase..(not trickle maintenance phase)..

 

[nta16]

59 minutes ago, fabdavrav said:

but thats after 7hrs...& its a 70Ah AGM battery

Sounds like your Ctek might be a bit more than my 4-amp "smart" charger and maintainer that took IIRC 14+ hours to get to "FUL" on my the Fabia's 60ah AGM that wasn't that low anyway and the leads and battery didn't seem warm.  Of course this was, as in the photo previously posted, car and charger outside on the  hard (luck) standing with weather a bit below and above freezing overnight.  😄

 

I've never owned a Ctek but a mate has had two of them for a few years (but not decade(s) and they don't look as good as (I think) I remember from many years before.

 

[fabdavrav]

20 minutes ago, nta16 said:

Sounds like your Ctek might be a bit more than my 4-amp "smart" charger and maintainer that took IIRC 14+ hours to get to "FUL" on my the Fabia's 60ah AGM that wasn't that low anyway and the leads and battery didn't seem warm.  Of course this was, as in the photo previously posted, car and charger outside on the  hard (luck) standing with weather a bit below and above freezing overnight.  😄

 

I've never owned a Ctek but a mate has had two of them for a few years (but not decade(s) and they don't look as good as (I think) I remember from many years before.

 

 

I've had my current Ctek for about 9yrs..I had a smaller Ctek one for a few years before that...

 

Mine is a "MSX 10".....besides the normal lead acid type charge function & associated "recon" functions....it has a separate charge cycle for AGM batteries, & also a "12V supply" function....

 

Copes with batteries from 20Ah upto 200Ah....& will provide "12V supply" to upto 300Ah batteries...(according to the specs)

 

Output varies from 13.6V/10Amp...to 16V/1.5Amp....for AGM its mainly 14.7V/10A max.....But the case says the "nominal" of 12V/10A....

 

Like I say after 7hrs it gets warm (fully charging my 70Ah AGM).....considering all the cables etc are more or less "in free air"...I'd hate to see that heat in the tightly wound (& covered in Tessa tape) internal wiring from the the 12V cigarette socket in the centre console to the battery.....In electronics you have to "de-rate" the capacity of cables when they are "encased" due to heat build up....

Edited 18 December, 2023 by fabdavrav