Charge cooler

[ToeM]

Hello again! Still trying to sort the emissions on my 2016 1.6tdi. I've been told it could need the charge cooler cleaning and it doesn't look the easiest thing to remove (unlike a normal intercooler). Is there a way I can clean the charge cooler while it is on the car? Some sort of spray to send down the hole where the sensor is, perhaps? 

 

The injectors are working fine (all have been cleaned/checked). The timing belt/water pump/high pressure fuel pump have all been changed. The egr has been cleaned out, as has all pipework to/from it. All filters are clean and new. Car has been meticulously maintained and fully serviced (every 8-10k miles).

 

The car blows a little black smoke when revved on and off gently but nothing else until it hits the 5500rpm limiter except for the initial part of the acceleration.

 

Any ideas?

[Crasher]

I can’t see cleaning the charge cooler helping, the only time we clean them is when the turbo fills them with oil.

[ToeM]

It's what a VW mechanic recommended with the car having 236k miles (all motorway, I know the car before I got it). No excessive oil burning or lost, good compression and confusing as anything! It would be so much easier if the car ran rough, had a low mpg, was a swine to start or kicked out black smoke constantly. 

[ords]

1 hour ago, ToeM said:

It's what a VW mechanic recommended with the car having 236k miles (all motorway, I know the car before I got it). No excessive oil burning or lost, good compression and confusing as anything! It would be so much easier if the car ran rough, had a low mpg, was a swine to start or kicked out black smoke constantly. 

Be careful what you wish for.

[MarkyG82]

Italian tune-up? You say it kicks out a bit of black when getting the revs up. How about holding the revs up and letting it kick whatever is in there out the back? Although maybe the dpf would catch it and get blocked?

[ToeM]

2 hours ago, MarkyG82 said:

Italian tune-up? You say it kicks out a bit of black when getting the revs up. How about holding the revs up and letting it kick whatever is in there out the back? Although maybe the dpf would catch it and get blocked?

Have done the 'italian' tune up and held the car at 4500rpm for 15 minutes. No smoke at all and when I floored the pedal, it accelerated until it hit the limiter. It's been like this for the past few months but the MoT is due in 6 weeks, so now to sort it! Dpf is nice and clean, removed to do so, yet still the same (with or without a dpf...I tried). The site only let's me upload 10mb and the smallest I can get the video to is 17.4 or I'd post it

[ToeM]

Hope this has uploaded, I've had to cut quite a lot

[J.R.]

How did you manage to get the engine to rev beyond the 2500 rpm standstill rev limit for any amount of time let alone 15 minutes?

 

That you were able to do so makes me suspect that the mapping of your ECU has been played with which if the case would be the first thing to suspect regarding emissions outside of limits.

 

Did I misunderstand and you drove in a low gear at 4500 rpm on the motorway for 15 minutes? If so that is not an Italian tune up, you need to thrash it through the gears repeatedly accelerating and braking to within an inch of its life, drive it like a joyrider in a stolen car, it makes me feel sick doing so but can be effective.

Edited 1 January by J.R.

[ToeM]

I drove in a low gear, 2nd and 3rd, for a good run (around 55 miles) and kept accelerating and braking due to the nature of the road...A590, Cumbria, UK. I also managed to hold a steady rom when I took the car between j36 and 37 on the M6...in 3rd. At a standstill, the rpm stops at 3k. As for feeling sick, it's bloody awful!

Must add there is no map other than standard on the car

[classic]

On 31/12/2023 at 12:48, ToeM said:

Hello again! Still trying to sort the emissions on my 2016 1.6tdi. I've been told it could need the charge cooler cleaning and it doesn't look the easiest thing to remove (unlike a normal intercooler). Is there a way I can clean the charge cooler while it is on the car? Some sort of spray to send down the hole where the sensor is, perhaps? 

 

The injectors are working fine (all have been cleaned/checked). The timing belt/water pump/high pressure fuel pump have all been changed. The egr has been cleaned out, as has all pipework to/from it. All filters are clean and new. Car has been meticulously maintained and fully serviced (every 8-10k miles).

 

The car blows a little black smoke when revved on and off gently but nothing else until it hits the 5500rpm limiter except for the initial part of the acceleration.

 

Any ideas?

I suspect the turbo is not providing sufficient boost.

[ToeM]

The turbo is spot on, no play and appears to be  working well.

[classic]

 

I don’t know off the top of my head what turbo is on your engine but there’s going be more to it than whether it hasn’t got play or it spins ok. And the actual turbo itself could be fine but not be getting controlled properly due to incorrect signals from sensors elsewhere. There will be an actuator to vary boost pressure correctly either operating a wastegate or more likely variable vanes in the turbo. and this will be operated by vacuum or electrical. There will also be sensors determining how it operates. Have you had it scanned for fault codes, or tested if it is providing the correct boost pressure ? 
If it’s blowing black smoke then at a basic level there isn’t enough air getting in or there’s too much fuel.

Edited 2 January by classic

[ToeM]

33 minutes ago, classic said:

 

I don’t know off the top of my head what turbo is on your engine but there’s going be more to it than whether it hasn’t got play or it spins ok. And the actual turbo itself could be fine but not be getting controlled properly due to incorrect signals from sensors elsewhere. There will be an actuator to vary boost pressure correctly either operating a wastegate or more likely variable vanes in the turbo. and this will be operated by vacuum or electrical. There will also be sensors determining how it operates. Have you had it scanned for fault codes, or tested if it is providing the correct boost pressure ? 
If it’s blowing black smoke then at a basic level there isn’t enough air getting in or there’s too much fuel.

No fault codes and I have no idea about the boost pressure as we never checked that. I understand the black smoke usually means over fuelling so I'm going to remove the injectors (again) and either give them another strip and sonic clean(again) or replace them. It's bloody frustrating!

[J.R.]

Turbo vanes and/or actuator sticking, Mr Muscle enema prescribed.

 

Start with the simple mechanical before chasing shadows.

 

If you have VCDS you can check the commanded versus measured values.

 

You have not explained what your emissions problems are, you have gone straight into how do I clean my charge cooler because a VAG mechanic said I should and are now repeating injector work which you did not explain the reason for doing.

[ToeM]

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

Turbo vanes and/or actuator sticking, Mr Muscle enema prescribed.

 

Start with the simple mechanical before chasing shadows.

 

If you have VCDS you can check the commanded versus measured values.

 

You have not explained what your emissions problems are, you have gone straight into how do I clean my charge cooler because a VAG mechanic said I should and are now repeating injector work which you did not explain the reason 

 

[ToeM]

This was what the car failed it's MoT on. Once boost came on, the car was belching out black smoke and after cleaning the dpf, egr and all pipework, it puts out the small amount of smoke as you can see in the short video posted. I don't personally have access to VCDS, so I'm trying to get the things done that I can do myself. Cleaning out the turbo should have been on my list, as I cleaned all pipework feeding it from the egr and it was full of solidified gunk. Sadly, I forgot and it now being mentioned will have me doing it later.

[ords]

You're using the car now?  How did it pass the MOT after it failed in August?

[ToeM]

1 hour ago, ords said:

You're using the car now?  How did it pass the MOT after it failed in August?

Car was a taxi and subject to 2 tests per year. After asking the wonderful officers of the law, as king as the original test is within the valid dates and the car didn't fail on anything 'dangerous', I can still use it. On the DVLA site, the car is still tested until Feb 6th. I thought a fail was a fail but there are, seemingly, other circumstances. If it had failed on welding, brakes, steering or similar, it would be a different matter (their words, not mine).

 

Currently not using the car as of such, either, just trying to sort this problem. I have a few to choose from....luckily.

[ApertureS]

2 hours ago, ToeM said:

Car was a taxi and subject to 2 tests per year. After asking the wonderful officers of the law, as king as the original test is within the valid dates and the car didn't fail on anything 'dangerous', I can still use it. On the DVLA site, the car is still tested until Feb 6th. I thought a fail was a fail but there are, seemingly, other circumstances. If it had failed on welding, brakes, steering or similar, it would be a different matter (their words, not mine).

 

Currently not using the car as of such, either, just trying to sort this problem. I have a few to choose from....luckily.

2 things, from a legal point of view - if you’re driving a car knowing it isn’t roadworthy (that includes emissions) you are committing an offence that can invalidate your insurance and get your car taken. That’s my take on it at least but it is a grey area.

 

second is black smoke which is hydrocarbons leaving the exhaust through 2 things - not enough air or too much fuel. 
has a leak test been done on injectors?

have the injectors been tested?

fuel quality checked?

fuel pressure both low and high?

has the intake system been checked for leaks?

boost pressure actual vs requested?

turbo actuator moving freely?

vacuum leaks on the turbo actuator and other solenoids?

any fault codes?

 

 

[ToeM]

1 hour ago, ApertureS said:

2 things, from a legal point of view - if you’re driving a car knowing it isn’t roadworthy (that includes emissions) you are committing an offence that can invalidate your insurance and get your car taken. That’s my take on it at least but it is a grey area.

 

second is black smoke which is hydrocarbons leaving the exhaust through 2 things - not enough air or too much fuel. 
has a leak test been done on injectors?

have the injectors been tested?

fuel quality checked?

fuel pressure both low and high?

has the intake system been checked for leaks?

boost pressure actual vs requested?

turbo actuator moving freely?

vacuum leaks on the turbo actuator and other solenoids?

any fault codes?

 

 

Leak test on injectors happening tomorrow. No leaks on intake system. Fuel quality should be good, only run on V-Power and a cleaner every 4th tank. No fault codes at all. I'll personally look at the actuator tomorrow when the injectors get removed. No VCDS at present so can't give exact values.

 

Because of the way the smoke is (see video), I'm thinking not enough air because of the turbo vanes not being as free as they should, as suggested on here. I would have checked movement today but I was working from 7-4:30. I'll do the mechanical stuff over the next few days and if still the same, I'll get it to the nearest VW dealer (I don't know of anybody with VCDS) for a readout. When I got the car, it used to blow out the smoke under load. With what has been done that is no longer happening, it is only doing on initial acceleration for about a second. Once the revs get up, it looks clean. I'm also putting it on a gas analyser tomorrow, just in case.

 

As for the grey area, I thought it wasn't grey, a fail was a fail! It was why I contacted the police and DVLA and was told what I wrote earlier. 

[The_Bomber]

On 01/01/2024 at 11:11, J.R. said:

How did you manage to get the engine to rev beyond the 2500 rpm standstill rev limit for any amount of time let alone 15 minutes?

 

Turn the esc off and it revs all the way up. 

[J.R.]

What is the "esc" please?

 

I initially got a UK MOT to be able to legally drive the vehicle from the UK to reregister in France during the Covid pandemic, the tester is a good friend I have known for over 30 years, the emissions test was not done and he wrote on the certificate could not be tested as not able to rev high enough, he is a very knowledgeable petrolhead so if anyone would know how to overcome it he should have.

 

It has the emissions test in the French CT test but at lower figures commensurate with the 2.5K rpm rev limit?

[J.R.]

ESC, is that the stability/traction control button? Its too late and cold to go out and try at present.

[The_Bomber]

9 hours ago, J.R. said:

ESC, is that the stability/traction control button? Its too late and cold to go out and try at present.

Yes 

[Ootohere]

So are you no further on other than being allowed to keep driving it because of the previous MOT pass and no MOT due yet?