I had my old car rolling roaded at JKM with and without a dragon box. Check their website for the maps, my car was a silver Fabia 05 model year. Figures went from 144bhp/255lbsft upto 163bhp/318lbsft....

Basically yes, the remap can also change boost meaning you can control the air as well as the fuel although the digital tuning boxes don't really do a bad job.

What you say sounds really sensible, but I can't help but notice that the power/torque figures quoted by generic remaps and tuning boxes are often pretty much identical.

Now, they could be achieving the power in different ways; the box by increasing fuelling and the remap by increasing both boost and fuelling (but more gently), but I've never seen this definitievely stated.

You could argue that a box will give a static % fuelling increase across the rev range, but the new digital boxes should be able to vary the effect depending on revs.

Whilst a proper remap "feels" like it ought to be better than a box that spoofs some of the boxes outputs (though people have used Power Commanders on motorbikes quite happily for years and thery're pretty much the same thing), I've not seem any *evidence* that there's any great difference.

As a digital box from a well-respected source could be £150 (which can be taken off and used on another car or sold at any time) and a similarly specified remap could be £400 (which can't) , it would be nice to know for definite what the difference actually is.

According to what Dragon say, the box only increases fuelling at higher revs to avoid lots of soot coming from the exhaust with insufficient boost (the turbo is not touched by the box). As a result I imagine you only get more power higher in the rev range with these things. A map can be tweaked to give whatever you want as the adjust the boost too.....more shove bottom end, more revs and power top end, a bit of both, etc etc.

I may be wrong but this is what I surmise to be the case.

According to what Dragon say, the box only increases fuelling at higher revs to avoid lots of soot coming from the exhaust with insufficient boost (the turbo is not touched by the box). As a result I imagine you only get more power higher in the rev range with these things. A map can be tweaked to give whatever you want as the adjust the boost too.....more shove bottom end, more revs and power top end, a bit of both, etc etc.

I may be wrong but this is what I surmise to be the case.

This is my understanding and experience. Some of this may be because of the PD160 intake (the jury's out on the actual performance effects - I got mine to cut the smoke!) but before I put my DB on, the engine ran out of puff at about 3750 rpm. Now it keeps pulling just as strongly right up to the redline (I had it up to 5k for a very brief moment on time ) so what it seems to do is sustain the torque a bit more, rather than it dropping off drastically like it used to. I seem to remember someone posting a RR plot (Octygone?) that would explain more, but I guess you'd need a before / after to really show the effects!

I had a dragon tunning box on my vRS before i got a remap my opinion on the two are the dragon boxes are good and better value as you can sell them on but performance wise the remap is definitly better:thumbup:

The difference i've noticed between the two is that low down pull there isnt much difference but at higher revs the remap keeps pulling (in 1st and 2nd gear when flooring it is easy it hit 5k if your not careful) and it doesnt tale off like the box, this is more noticable in higher gears! Overall the remap feels quicker but not by a huge amount!

Paul

Think it all comes down to how the mapping is done. I know the generic one-click the power falls away after 4Krpm (guesing like a tuning box) but a custom one click it powers to the red line.

Like above you can sell a tuning box on or take it to your next car so better value for money.

I ran a Dragon box on my old vRS and was very pleased with it. Power delivery was less smooth than standard but it pulled a treat. It went on on 7 and never came off for 20k. Highly recommended.

I also didn't see a huge difference between that and a remapped one. If you're under warranty I wouldn't bother with a remap...

Wonder how insurance companies view it.....better/ safer than a remap?

This is always the bug bear with me. i felt I was lucky not to be charged for fitting leather seats.....

In a quandry about this as I want more power in my VRS.

Mines a 2nd hand VRS with 60k on the clock so the thing that worries me a little is if I whack on a Dragon Box now will it cause excess wear to the engine thats done some miles?

And also its starting to feel a little sluggish (was only serviced 3k ago!)

What's your reccomendations folks?

Steve

In a quandry about this as I want more power in my VRS.

Mines a 2nd hand VRS with 60k on the clock so the thing that worries me a little is if I whack on a Dragon Box now will it cause excess wear to the engine thats done some miles?

And also its starting to feel a little sluggish (was only serviced 3k ago!)

What's your reccomendations folks?

Steve

fresh air filter

i wouldn't of thought there would be any excess engine wear , all you are doing is throwing more fuel in , mines at 52.5k miles with no problems

As a digital box from a well-respected source could be £150 (which can be taken off and used on another car or sold at any time) and a similarly specified remap could be £400 (which can't) , it would be nice to know for definite what the difference actually is.

my VRS will be on Awesomes rollers on Saturday , and as its been on before twice with similar figures both times ,standard except for PD160 and green filter, we will get a good idea of what BHP a Dragon Box produces on setting 15

I to am very interested in a Dragon tuning box, i like the option to take it off when needed and also the strong resale market of such a device.

Would be very interested to see what figures a rolling road produces as my Fabia Vrs has a PD160 and pipercross filter only at present.

Matt

The only component the dragon box can cause really affect is the EGR valve.

The only component the dragon box can cause really affect is the EGR valve.

Why's that then? :confused:

Chris

im sure ive read it on here at overfuelling can kill the valve.

but Its just what ive read on here

In a quandry about this as I want more power in my VRS.

Mines a 2nd hand VRS with 60k on the clock so the thing that worries me a little is if I whack on a Dragon Box now will it cause excess wear to the engine thats done some miles?

And also its starting to feel a little sluggish (was only serviced 3k ago!)

What's your reccomendations folks?

Steve

Hi Steve,

i guess the jury is out on this one, but let me throw my 2 pennys worth in.

For the Dragon Box = Plug and Play. Instant and Good results. Cheaper. Easily removeable. Can resell if you wish.

Against = Should you have a major incident, the last thing on your mind will be removing this item. Easily identifiable. Insurance claim null and void, unless you have declared it so if you have declared it a £200 item may cost you £200 extra insurance per annum. Therefore making it £400 + £ 200 per annum .

Remap for = this applies to generic or custom. Hard to detect at first look. Super results and if with a reputable supplier it will put a big smile on your face. As an ECU flash is covert you may or may not wish to declare it. But as my mechanic said to me at my 1st service " What the F00k you done to that car mate?" So he visibally didn`t notice it but when taking it for a spin he twigged straight away. With a KWP2000 or equivalent tool you can put the car back as standard and reflash the ECU as required. Cost for flasher tool is anything from £75 to £1,000`S and requires some technical know how. In other words upload your original ECU file or map before service.

Against

Cost. Contradiction in terms here but the initial outlay is quite high.

Can be detected in case of a claim. Any decent insurance assesor will be able to download your ECU file and compare with the manufactures standard. Just like comparing a word document for changes. PoP. (Piece of p$$$) I did it with my standard ECU code and my remapped one.

Need a reputable supplier. A custom remap is a complicated job. I am classified as a computer geek. It`s what i`m paid to do. Can i do a remap? No. The software designed to do this on a pc will enable you to tweak any ECU file. Let`s compare it to the BIOS of a pc. In summary NO. I know nothing about boost, pressure, tolerances and many other parameters required to increase performance, MPG on a highly specced engine. Most suppliers out there get there ECU files from a 3rd party with a good rep. The best are the ones that do theire own.

Conclusion

I rag my well maintained car around as standard 130BHP. It is designed to operate within the tolerances set by the manufaturer. If i put 2 identical vehicles side by side mine, and mine after a remap. Who`s do you think will last longer?

.

Hope this helps

Cost. Contradiction in terms here but the initial outlay is quite high.

Can be detected in case of a claim. Any decent insurance assesor will be able to download your ECU file and compare with the manufactures standard. Just like comparing a word document for changes. PoP. (Piece of p$$$) I did it with my standard ECU code and my remapped one.

do they still have insurance assessors ? a lot of body shops just take digital photos or even videos of the damage and send it to the insurance companies , so no assessor comes to view the vehicle , plus would they know how to use and understand the info that they would find if they were thus equipped with a device to read whats on an ECU

do they still have insurance assessors ? a lot of body shops just take digital photos or even videos of the damage and send it to the insurance companies , so no assessor comes to view the vehicle , plus would they know how to use and understand the info that they would find if they were thus equipped with a device to read whats on an ECU

Last time i had a vehicle wrote off the other parties insurance sent an assesor round. Checked tyres, tax, MOT and general roadworthiness. Anything to obstruct the claim. This was on a £400 vehicle. But the other chaps (him at fault) was worth £20,000. I`m not an expert but an insurance assesors fee at 2 vehicles a day is well worth £200 if he can prove that the claim against his company is null and void I.E £20,000 (his vehicle) +£400 (mine). For one claim.

Any Joe with an ounce of nounce about him and access to the interrnet "Google" can determine a standard ECU file to a modified one period.

Insurance assesors are well trained and if i was one one working on piece or commisssion i would be lurking around car forums.

I rag my well maintained car around as standard 130BHP. It is designed to operate within the tolerances set by the manufaturer. If i put 2 identical vehicles side by side mine, and mine after a remap. Who`s do you think will last longer?

I think you've answered your own question there: "I rag my well maintained car around..."

Having the extra power does not equal ragging your car. Doing full-throttle starts, high-rev driving whilst cold, short runs, late gearchanges etc. etc. with your car at standard will all do far more damage than a certain % of extra bhp on a car that's rarely driven in a balls-out manner. The key is mechanical sympathy. Seldom do I use my extra horsepowers, but they're handy when they're there!

So who has what?

Could people post a list saying what they have and what hp?

example

Mr Joe Bloggs

Super Tuning Box

170hp / 350 lbs ft torque

No other mods

I'm not after 200hp just from a remap but it would be useful to know what works for other people

Steve

So who has what?

Could people post a list saying what they have and what hp?

example

Mr Joe Bloggs

Super Tuning Box

170hp / 350 lbs ft torque

No other mods

I'm not after 200hp just from a remap but it would be useful to know what works for other people

Steve

WaveyDavey

Dragon Performance Digital PD Tuning Box

Guesstimate 160-170BHP (Dragon Specify 160bhp & 360 lbs ft)

PD160 intake & Green Filter

Price £195.... Resale value £100-£150???

Cheers

Dave.

Please read the rules on advertising - you need to join Freedom.

I would be very interested, if its still available

Matt

If you mod & don't insure then you're a ****. Simple as that. You're driving around uninsured & I for one hope you go to prison & get a$$-raped every night for the rest of your life with no lube.

That goes for ALL uninsured drivers. If you hit me & you're uninsured then I lose out - why should I just because someone else is a complete **** with no respect for anything or anyone?

Incidentally, my insurance company covered the Dragon box for no increase in premium - you might be pleasantly surprised if you actually get off your childish, selfish, boy-racer backside and ring them.

If you mod & don't insure then you're a ****. Simple as that. You're driving around uninsured & I for one hope you go to prison & get a$$-raped every night for the rest of your life with no lube.

That goes for ALL uninsured drivers. If you hit me & you're uninsured then I lose out - why should I just because someone else is a complete **** with no respect for anything or anyone?

Incidentally, my insurance company covered the Dragon box for no increase in premium - you might be pleasantly surprised if you actually get off your childish, selfish, boy-racer backside and ring them.

I've looked through the posts again and who exactly are you directing this to.... Who has said they have fitted a dragon box and isn't declaring it?????

I know what you mean but i think your post is a bit much when nobody has even said they've done it!!!:confused:

Cheers

Dave.