DSG or Manual??

[Javaman]

I'm sure that has been flogged to death previously and so if I'm raking over old ground then please accept my apologies. I haven't visited this site for some time but instead have been happily piling on the miles onto my 1.9tdi pd 130 Elegance Octavia. It's still something of a baby with 67000 miles on the clock but I fancy spoiling myself plus I have the money and the car dealerships are desperate. So . . . £16300 for a brand new L & K 2.0 DSG Octavia is too good a bargain to miss or alternatively £1200 less for a manual.

O.K - the crunch. I've always thought that autos were for old farts who can't be bothered to change gear but I've heard so much about this gearbox that a. I'm curious and b. at 49, I'm getting to be an old fart too.

So, what do I do?? - Auto or manual

Any opinions appreciated. The only rub here is having to accept £3k trade-in on my 4 year old car but that's life I guess.

I'm tempted by the DSG . . . . . .

[bertJ]

Drive the DSG. If you're like me you'll never even consider a manual box again. DSG's are far superior to conventional automatics IMO. A bonus is that there is very little, if any, difference in fuel consumption to a manual car. We have a 105bhp pdi DSG Golf and the 140bhp DSG L&K. The 105bhp is very smooth but it has nowhere near the performance of the 140bhp. I'm hoping that Skoda will eventually produce a 170bhp L&K with the CR engine.

[mdk1]

Go for the DSG,

Join Freedom and advertise your car on here, might get a bit more for it.

[PumpeDuse]

keep hold of your money - this country is fecked, theres going to be a long long recession

[cjb]

Drive the DSG. I've just got a Leon TDI DSG after my Fabia vRS, mainly because of backache in traffic using the clutch. It is different to a conventional auto. Even if I didn't suffer the aches and pains, I'd not go back to a manual now.

[bob20vbob]

I'd agree that the DSG is significantly different to a standard auto...... but I'd still recommend you drive one back to back with a manual....

I had a DSG vRS TDI on loan for 5 days from Skoda UK and whilst it is undoubtably an interesting piece of engineering I just did not like it - it was far too nannying for my taste......

Obviously a lot of people do like them - just make sure you have a good go in one before you commit!!!

Good luck

[rwbaldwin]

See current thread http://briskoda.net/superb-ii/2-0tdi-cr-170bhp-elegance-manual-dsg/130832/

[ibex777]

I am picking up a new Octavia L&K DSG tomorrow - so unsurprisingly I would go for the DSG.

I test drove a manual as well, but the 140hp TDI and the DSG box are a great combination. I came to the realisation that most of my driving is around town or motorway and for this the DSG is much more relaxing. For the odd occasion when I actually get out on a nice bit of open road I would prefer a manual, but for me at least this is a pretty small percentage of my driving.

The DSG shifts are super smooth and much nicer than conventional automatics I have driven - although unless you have the hill hold fitted they are are a bit strange if you are used to a standard automatic gearbox - there isn't any creep at tickover so it will roll backwards on a hill. Doesn't take much to get used to it.

That is a good price on the L&K if you can get it - close to what Drivethedeal were offering when I ordered mine.

[bertJ]

- there isn't any creep at tickover so it will roll backwards on a hill. Doesn't take much to get used to it.

My DSG creeps at tickover.

[cjb]

My DSG creeps at tickover.

So does mine. You can avoid the roll-back on most hills by coming off the brake a little slower, so the clutch engages before the brakes are right off.

The creep is less pronounced than a conventional autobox.

[Javaman]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I agree that our economy is fecked which is precisely why I plan on offloading some wonga!!!

I can see I'm going to have to drive one not least of all, I'm puzzled as to how these things take up from a standing start. If there's no torque converter, at what point does the engine engage. Some folks creep and others don't??? - As the clutches are essentially conventional but operated by a pneumatic control system, surely any creep at a standstill could result in premature wear of the plates? That said, what's the story for a standing start? How does the control system decide at which point to engage the clutch as you depress the accelerator. . . . .

Will nip down the local VAG dealer tomorrow and try it out. All said and done, if I don't like it, the 6 speed manual is an even better deal.

I'm opting for tyre pressure monitoring as well and was intrigued to hear that this works off the ABS system using differential wheel speed as the trigger. That's got me even more puzzled . . . . why would a tyre with say 10psi less in it rotate any faster/slower than the opposing wheel. Sure, it will have a larger "footprint" on the road but the overall diameter of the tyre and hence its rotational speed should be unaffected. Anyone have any experience of this system? How sensitive is it to pressure loss? Is it any good?

Once again, thanks for your constructive comments

[mr_awol]

If i was buying and had the spare cash, then i would probably buy the DSG just because i could and it would be a novelty. Sitting here with a manual though i can't think of any reason WHY i'd want a DSG - other than it would be a fairly cool gimmick.

At £1200 i really cant see the point TBH. Plenty of things i personally would rather spend that on.

[LaceSensor]

I have the DSG gearbox and I think it is very nice to drive

You immediately realise how more relaxed you are (or at least I did) not having to work a clutch especially in traffic / in motorway queues.

I am not really a car enthusiast so to speak, so the whole idea of going driving fast round country lanes etc doesnt appeal to me. I wanted something powerful and relaxed for motorway driving with the extra speed when needed for overtaking etc.

I drove a load of cars / marques and drove about 5 different octavias before settling on a CR vRS with DSG. By the way its a company car for 20k miles+ a year.

Edited 10 December, 2008 by LaceSensor

[Supacabby]

Look out for the 'hesitation' from a standing start on your test drive, not immediately noticeable in a strange car but it's there & a lot of peeps are unhappy with that characteristic of it.

Other than that I hope you don't have to pay for a replacement, they're somewhat expensive!

[skippy41]

Is there any problems with the DSG boxes and would they last 200k

[ibex777]

My post wasn't quite correct to be honest - there is creep on tickover on the flat or slight hills. However, autos I have driven before don't seem to roll back on any kind of hill - whereas the DSG will roll back on a steep hill at tickover. Don't know how the clutches work differently from a torque convertor - bit technical for me.

Does the L&K come with hill assist (where it holds the brake on for a few seconds when starting on a hill)? I thought it did but I haven't had a chance to test mine yet as I only drove it home from the dealers and there are no hills - didn't fancy going out to play in the dark on icy roads in a brand new car!

[justdoit]

The tyre pressure system works indeed by the ABS system. It has nothing to do with drag, the simple reason it works is because a tyre with less air in it has a smaller radius (the bottom bit is nearer the centre of the wheel, funny how the top bit always looks ok!!) so it turns more times over a given distance than a correctly pressured wheel so the ABS system flags the higher number of turns on that hub and warns you of a difference in pressures, clever yet so simple, well until the ABS sensor starts to play up because of grime n rust!

[cjb]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I agree that our economy is fecked which is precisely why I plan on offloading some wonga!!!

I can see I'm going to have to drive one not least of all, I'm puzzled as to how these things take up from a standing start. If there's no torque converter, at what point does the engine engage. Some folks creep and others don't??? - As the clutches are essentially conventional but operated by a pneumatic control system, surely any creep at a standstill could result in premature wear of the plates? That said, what's the story for a standing start? How does the control system decide at which point to engage the clutch as you depress the accelerator. . . . .

The clutch is a wet clutch on the 6 speed, so AIUI less prone to wear. In 'N' it is totally disengaged, and I think that when the footbrake is on it is disengaged too- idle speed is the same, but of course, that could be engine managment.. As you lift off the brake, it engages- so if you come off the brake quickly it will roll back slightly. Come off slower and it catches it- there seems to be 2 switches, one that senses you lifting off the brake, and another for the brakelights.

There is a definite creep in all 3 DSG cars I've driven (Golf TDI 170 and 2 Leon Sport 140 TDIs), but it is less pronounced than a conventional TC auto.

Once you are off the brakes totally the clutch engages fully, I reckon, so if you let go of the brake and hit the throttle the clutch is fully engaged. 1st gear is very low to minimise slipping, then 2nd gear engages almost as soon as you are moving. It will hold 1 a bit longer if you floor it, or in S mode or tiptronic.

[justdoit]

One other thing, a lot of conventional autos also disengage drive at standstill now to help lower emissions, less drag = less power used = less emissions! Been caught out with that a few times when stopped on hills in auto's.

[Javaman]

The tyre pressure system works indeed by the ABS system. It has nothing to do with drag, the simple reason it works is because a tyre with less air in it has a smaller radius (the bottom bit is nearer the centre of the wheel, funny how the top bit always looks ok!!) so it turns more times over a given distance than a correctly pressured wheel so the ABS system flags the higher number of turns on that hub and warns you of a difference in pressures, clever yet so simple, well until the ABS sensor starts to play up because of grime n rust!

Thanks for all the input - I'm going to put the car on hold until I've driven the DSG - I don't want a dose of buyer's remorse.

If the pressure monitoring works well, I'll definitely go for it as I consider it an extremely useful safety aid. I'm still baffled though. . . .Take a road speed of 60mph - that has to mean a contact rotational speed of 60mph for the tyre . Accepted that if the radius is smaller the wheel will must have a greater rotational velocity which means that the tyre in the twelve O'clock position must be doing more than 60mph cos it will have increased radius. . . . the conclusion of a simpleton is that the top of the tyre starts to catch the bottom!! Compute . . compute. . . not feckin possible . . my head hurts. . . time for bed said Zebidee!!!!:confused:

[cjb]

Thanks for all the input - I'm going to put the car on hold until I've driven the DSG - I don't want a dose of buyer's remorse.

If the pressure monitoring works well, I'll definitely go for it as I consider it an extremely useful safety aid. I'm still baffled though. . . .Take a road speed of 60mph - that has to mean a contact rotational speed of 60mph for the tyre . Accepted that if the radius is smaller the wheel will must have a greater rotational velocity which means that the tyre in the twelve O'clock position must be doing more than 60mph cos it will have increased radius. . . . the conclusion of a simpleton is that the top of the tyre starts to catch the bottom!! Compute . . compute. . . not feckin possible . . my head hurts. . . time for bed said Zebidee!!!!:confused:

At the top of the tyre the effective radius will be the same, but as the bottom is flattened it will be smaller.

Not worth thinking about. Too Hard.

Suffice to say my Leon has it, and it hasn't given any false alarms so far.

[Brimma]

I've recently swapped my Touran 2.0 tdi 6-speed manual for an Octavia VRS CR 170 DSG estate, and can honestly say that I wish I'd done it sooner. I don't do high mileages, but the DSG box is absolutely superb. Thought it would take me a while to adapt to leaving my left foot to one side doing nothing, but it soon comes as second nature.

The deal I got from Horton Skoda in Lincoln was fantastic. They had a black magic estate in stock - it didn't have the 18" wheels, jumbo box etc that the latest cars have, but I don't miss them. And I got the car for £15522 ! That's right - I couldn't believe it either. They also gave me the same trade-in that other dealers were offering.

Having only just got the car, I won't be able to comment on overall performance and economy until the engine has loosened up a bit. As far as any regrets go - I couldn't be happier with my purchase.

[Javaman]

Have just tested the DSG in a Passat CC 140 PD. I wasn't phased by the take-up in first gear. Clearly, it's going to vary depending on how aggressive you are with the throttle but I tried a variety of standing starts once I was away from the dealers and I found it to be pretty good to be honest. . . No significant hesitance that I could detect.

When changing up or down the box, if you monitor closely what's going on and particularly in S mode, you can see the engine revs changing after the first clutch has disengaged and before the second one drops so that the revs are matched when the clutch engages. So, regardless of where you have your foot on the throttle, during the gear change, it would seem that the black box is in control. To my mind, the much-heralded speed that the DSG changes gear is largely bull as it's limited by the time taken for the engine revs to match before the clutch gets engaged. In ordinary "D" mode, this happens earlier in the rev range, the drop is less and consequently the change is quicker and less noticeable than in "sport". That said, the gear change was even better than I was led to believe and impressive to say the least, including standing starts.

Now I really am confused which way to go?I don't mind a manual box, indeed, I enjoy playing "tunes"on it and feel comfortable with longevity and limited service costs. There is no official interval for oil changes and my last Golf did 220,000 miles on the same clutch so I'm not expecting that to turn toes up on me in a manual.

As for the DSG - I get the feeling that I could learn to enjoy driving the car and chilling out more whilst at the wheel. I'm advised that the only additional service burden is a 40K oil change at about one hundred notes a pop. Clearly failures and worn clutches that need replacing are going to be expensive . . ..acceptable risk or not?? On the creep issue, once or twice the car just held and on one occasion it crept from a standstill despite having autohold. So I would guess it depends to some extent on what the system is anticipating your intentions are going to be and occasionally finds itself in no-mans land, releases the auto-hold and creeps. Strangely, though, even with my foot on the brake and then engaging drive, you can sense that the engine is under load compared to sitting in neutral - much like when you switch on the aircon only more noticeable. This suggests that sitting at junctions in drive for any length of time is likely to cause premature clutch plate wear and to whip the thing in and out of drive might not be a bad idea to reduce clutch wear. . . hmm!! . . we seem to be heading back into manual territory here.

Overall, if I really wanted an auto, this would be the box . . . I'm just not sure it's something I either need or want. Maybe the deciding factor is the comment from the young girls I employ at work who, when I returned from the test drive and on finding out that it was an automatic, commented that I would never get laid if I drove an automatic -"my god, how boring - they're for old men". Now then, I'm not too troubled about not getting laid, particularly by my employees but maybe they have a point!!!

Anyway, this whole debate could be irrelevent having just read the thread on blown turbos . . . . my 1.9 PD 130 has only 70K on the clock but it could be that the DSG turns out to be the most reliable part on the car - assuming of course it lasts 20K!!! -

[k.young]

Just to help your decision making process..................I have a 2.0Tdi DSG (re-mapped since day one) and it has just passed the 200,000km mark without a hickup !! I would be more worried about turbo failures and DMF wobbles.

[jbconno]

I thought they all came with jumbo boxes and 18's now ?