FAO All the experts who claim cant get over 220 bhp on standard nozzles..

[gac]

gavinchappell click this link xa0sx to see what I mean.

Mine probably was on a par with that tbh. It was worse at the open day because the extraction wasn't working so it just flooded the workshop with soot, but mine had the same thick black clouds pouring out of it if you went anywhere near WOT in it. Then Shark fixed it by mapping it with sensible SOI/duration and it hardly smokes at all now...

[ickleginge]

Ahh...interesting Gavin. Thanks for the explanation.

There is quite a lot of discussion on the tdiclub forums that relates to this topic. Always worth a read if anyone's interested?

[Friggerpants]

Can we see the graph, and a WHP figure?

I don't know what to think now. I've been told by countless people there's a limit, yet this blows every argument out.

[wilsy7]

Can we see the graph, and a WHP figure?

I don't know what to think now. I've been told by countless people there's a limit, yet this blows every argument out.

Time to believe

[Bogwoppit]

Ahh...interesting Gavin. Thanks for the explanation.

There is quite a lot of discussion on the tdiclub forums that relates to this topic. Always worth a read if anyone's interested?

Have you got a link please?

[ickleginge]

Hmm...Direct links...afraid not.

Your best bet is get registered and head over to the TDI Power Enhancements section.

You might want to look out for our own devonutopia as he has an interest in all things TDI and where he goes there's normally power involved! Otherwise Bobby Singh, and majesty78 (who if I remember right you can also find on cupra.net) always have something of interest to discuss.

Good luck and don't get lost over there in the Americas. :p

[softscoop]

This is interesting.

Just how have they done it? I assume the fact that the head is ported and polished, along with hardened components helps?

[BossFox]

This is interesting.

Just how have they done it? I assume the fact that the head is ported and polished, along with hardened components helps?

I'm not sure if the head on that car was ported and polished. It may have been (I know mine was) but there is no mention of it on the thread for the car: http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/166081-my-latest-fabia-pics-and-spec-list/page__hl__jabbasport

And it's not included in the Stage 3 conversion at Jabbasport.

I have to admit, I did wonder when I looked through that thread by Warwick and saw the comments from a few known members on here.

It's like spamming the guy's thread about his own car. :wonder:

[fabdavrav]

Can we see the graph, and a WHP figure?

I don't know what to think now. I've been told by countless people there's a limit, yet this blows every argument out.

Are you now going to pay the current owner or W.H. for the cost of the dyno runs as per your earlier post here????

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/166081-my-latest-fabia-pics-and-spec-list/page__view__findpost__p__2237859

[warwick hunt]

the head on mine wasnt touched..

[BossFox]

the head on mine wasnt touched..

Even more impressive it made what it did then.

[gac]

But if the limiting factor is the injectors, why would a polished/ported head make a difference? If anything that would improve airflow meaning that the injectors were even more of a "bottleneck" than they were before, no? So once you get up to full load you'd actually find you had more airflow than a standard head, with standard injectors running a high duty cycle and the mixture wouldn't be as balanced so you'd possibly get less power than a standard head under the same conditions?

[BossFox]

But if the limiting factor is the injectors, why would a polished/ported head make a difference? If anything that would improve airflow meaning that the injectors were even more of a "bottleneck" than they were before, no? So once you get up to full load you'd actually find you had more airflow than a standard head, with standard injectors running a high duty cycle and the mixture wouldn't be as balanced so you'd possibly get less power than a standard head under the same conditions?

I don't understand how having better airflow and therefore more oxygen in the cylinder can be bad.

It may not make much difference and it may just reduce the smoking. But less power?

[gac]

Well, I'm assuming that although running lean isn't dangerous for a diesel engine in the same sense as it is for a petrol one, it's still not ideal? Surely there's still some level of "optimal" fuel/air mixture on a diesel engine, so if you have the extra airflow from a ported/polished head and injectors which supposedly can't give any more fuel (since this whole thread is discussing the fact that at power levels well below Warwick's and yours the injectors are already as near as possible to 100% of their duty cycle so can't inject any longer), the mixture is going to be leaner than with a standard head and the same injectors.

Whether it actually affects power or not I don't know, but what I'm getting at is that if we're saying that the injectors are the limiting factor (which has been stated on many occasions and with Shark's explanation of exactly why they believe this to be the case) then head porting does nothing to change this restriction so I don't see where it could manufacture another ~40bhp from.

Edited 1 November, 2011 by gavinchappell

[KenONeill]

Well, I'm assuming that although running lean isn't dangerous for a diesel engine in the same sense as it is for a petrol one, it's still not ideal? Surely there's still some level of "optimal" fuel/air mixture on a diesel engine, so if you have the extra airflow from a ported/polished head and injectors which supposedly can't give any more fuel (since this whole thread is discussing the fact that at power levels well below Warwick's and yours the injectors are already as near as possible to 100% of their duty cycle so can't inject any longer), the mixture is going to be leaner than with a standard head and the same injectors.

Whether it actually affects power or not I don't know, but what I'm getting at is that if we're saying that the injectors are the limiting factor (which has been stated on many occasions and with Shark's explanation of exactly why they believe this to be the case) then head porting does nothing to change this restriction so I don't see where it could manufacture another ~40bhp from.

I'm afraid that this just indicates that you don't understand diesels; they're intrinsically in lean burn until and unless you hit sufficiently high throttle and low revs/boost conditions to reach stoechemetric mixture.

<meanwhile, back at the point >

This suggests to me that Shark's RR is optomistic, just not as optomistic as Jabba's, which over-reads by about 10%. Of course, this also means that you can get a 19PD past 220bhp on standard injectors, but it still doesn't mean that you can get past 240..250bhp on them.

[shark_90]

Optimistic it isn't. Plenty of people already been upset by it.

We don't know what's been done to it for it to make that power. But make that power it did.

[gac]

I'm afraid that this just indicates that you don't understand diesels; they're intrinsically in lean burn until and unless you hit sufficiently high throttle and low revs/boost conditions to reach stoechemetric mixture.

That is entirely possible, I did use the word "assumption" for that very reason

edit - and although I was wrong in the details, I stand by my original point which is that if the injectors are the restricting factor, changing the head doesn't change or remove that restriction.

Edited 1 November, 2011 by gavinchappell

[BossFox]

Optimistic it isn't. Plenty of people already been upset by it.

We don't know what's been done to it for it to make that power. But make that power it did.

As Ben says, his rolling road is pretty well known for upsetting people.

But it's easier to make the statement it's optimistic than believe the results I guess, surprise, surprise.

[fabdavrav]

This thread is starting to be like the older thread......... :wonder: .....with people STILL not beliving what this car can do!! Are you going to have to resort to beating them over the head with the stock injectors and then the rolling road?? :wonder: ....It's like trying to deny that the earth is squashed ball shaped, the earth orbits the sun, the sky is generally blue, grass is generally green, and tarmac is generally black..... ...what will it take to convince these people???..........

Somebody PLEASE get the company who built it to fully explain what they did and why it makes those figures.....for the benefit of the haters!!

[ste372]

Jabba arent guna come on a public forum and tell you how they have made the extra power are they? Then everybody would be copying them.maybe this is why stage 3 at jabba is expensive because they know how to extract the extra power.

[Friggerpants]

How much power did it make at the wheeels please?

Is there a graph avaialbe yet?

[BossFox]

This thread is starting to be like the older thread......... :wonder: .....with people STILL not beliving what this car can do!! Are you going to have to resort to beating them over the head with the stock injectors and then the rolling road?? :wonder: ....It's like trying to deny that the earth is squashed ball shaped, the earth orbits the sun, the sky is generally blue, grass is generally green, and tarmac is generally black..... ...what will it take to convince these people???..........

This post made me :rofl:

[Mort]

...what will it take to convince these people???..........

Somebody with the money and inclination to stick their engine on a bench and get it tested

[gac]

Jabba arent guna come on a public forum and tell you how they have made the extra power are they? Then everybody would be copying them.maybe this is why stage 3 at jabba is expensive because they know how to extract the extra power.

But isn't it already possible if you have time to do it? Shark had no problem extracting the Awesome map off my ECU (a couple of hardware communications problems aside) and it was easy for them to see why it wasn't running great and explain it to me. I'm sure they could easily do the same with a Jabba map, and spot any "out of place" parts hardware-wise which would give them an idea of how it's making the power? It's still only an internal combustion engine...

IMO you're paying for their "stage 3" package because a lot of the parts have been done to Jabba's design, the quality control and the amount of development time that's gone into it, and the fitting which they've done before so should go smoother than getting an independent to fit it. No doubt eBay copies will show up eventually as they always do, some people will buy them and be fine, some people will buy them and have a nightmare of a time, and some people will just think the extra cost is worth it and go for the original Jabba package. Just like what happens with FMICs (universal vs Forge vs SEAT Sport), diffs (Quaife vs that "unknown" eBay brand someone posted up on here a couple of months back) and all sorts of other parts. Those who want quality pay for it, those that don't get a cheap version and take their chances.

[BossFox]

Somebody with the money and inclination to stick their engine on a bench and get it tested

Ah, but if one of us was actually crazy enough to do that they'd just question the tester/testing equipment/ambient temp/god knows what else...

The closest I got was going to Santa Pod and agreeing to run next to one of the doubters.

But they seemed to have a technical problem on the way and never showed up.