This DSG Thing?

[Cumbria Steve]

You've got all the upsides to the DSG already. Here are the reasons you might not want one.

The gearshifts are harsh. A conventional auto slurs it's shifts with the torque converter as it pulls the engine revs up or down. The DSG releases one clutch and grabs the next. Taking about 0.6 seconds.

0.6 seconds is great if you are in a hurry. If you are cruising it just feels wrong.

The gearbox pre-selects the next gear based on what it thinks you are doing. If it gets this wrong it takes about 2 seconds to sort it out. 2 seconds is a very long time to be without any drive when traffic is bearing down on you. For some reason round-abouts flummox this gear prediction, it can't get it right. On the test drive I took the DSG box got it wrong three times. There was only one roundabout. Other times it was sitting at un-necessarily high or low revs.

The fuel economy is worse than a manual. Sure the official figures for the dry 7 speed box put it as beating the manual by a fraction in the standard test. But this is because VW have done an excellent job tailoring the shift pattern to the standard test. Compared to a manual box you've got more clutches, hydraulic pumps and actuators running which all require power from your fuel tank.

If anything goes wrong with the ECU or clutch packs, it'll cost you thousands. These boxes are still powered by a dual mass flywheel. So you are potentially still up for the same labour cost as a clutch change in a manual box. But you'll save maybe 80 quid on the clutch.

Honestly I prefer a conventional auto with an aggressive lockup program to a DSG. I rate the ZF 6 speed in the mondeo above the 6 speed DSG in the superb.

Thanks for taking the time to write that, in all honesty I expected varied views on which is best...I suppose it will differ a lot with the individual, how they drive and how they view driving.

I think the DSG is well liked by those that have it, I also think very valid points are made by those that don't and prefer a stick.

The replys have certainly cleared up my original question ..with thanks to all.

I suspect I have reached the view that I would accept either, though the difference in price and the fact I am more than happy doing the work myself and always have been, probably means I will end up with a manual and choosing the 1.4 for that little extra get up and go.

My low annual mileage and no off road use tends to also remove the diesel versions from the equation.

[Sporky McGuffin]

When you get older you need less to worry about!

I'd modify that slightly - everyone always needs less to worry about, but as you get older you realise this!

I've driven a couple of DSGs and they were fine. My Yeti is manual ('cos it's a CR170) and the Yeti's manual shift is about the nicest I've used - my Fabia had a similarly neat-feeling shift, so while DSG certainly has advantages (and if they offered it with 4x4 and the CR170 I'd probably switch) the manual certainly isn't a poor choice.

[ejstubbs]

The gearshifts are harsh. A conventional auto slurs it's shifts with the torque converter as it pulls the engine revs up or down. The DSG releases one clutch and grabs the next. Taking about 0.6 seconds.

0.6 seconds is great if you are in a hurry. If you are cruising it just feels wrong.

One thing I would say in favour of the DSG on the 1.2, based on my test drive in one, is that the gear shifts were imperceptible, especially when taking it steady rather than pushing on.

The gearbox pre-selects the next gear based on what it thinks you are doing. If it gets this wrong it takes about 2 seconds to sort it out. 2 seconds is a very long time to be without any drive when traffic is bearing down on you. For some reason round-abouts flummox this gear prediction, it can't get it right. On the test drive I took the DSG box got it wrong three times. There was only one roundabout.

This was the thing I hated about the DSG on my test drive. Pulling away from traffic lights it seemed to want to shift up into 3rd within the first ten yards, bogging the engine down. Pressing harder with the right foot got it all flustered, having to switch from preparing to go up a gear to having to go down at least one gear, leaving me going nowhere very much in the mean time. I concluded that I couldn't live with an auto box that made it look like I should really be driving a Micra...

Edited 4 October, 2012 by ejstubbs

[Llanigraham]

Kiwibacon

Have youu actually driven a 6 or 7 speed DSG Yeti?

Your "views" do not seem to tally with those that actually use them daily.

[Kiwibacon]

Kiwibacon

Have youu actually driven a 6 or 7 speed DSG Yeti?

Your "views" do not seem to tally with those that actually use them daily.

Yeti no. Superb using the same driveline.

Of course my views don't tally with those who bought them. You don't buy one if you share my views.

[Llanigraham]

Is the Superb exactly the same?

Are the gearing the same?

Is it exactly the same gearbox?

Sorry, but I would prefer to take note of people who have actual experienced of the SAME vehicle, not just a different model by the same manufacturer.

[yetifabia]

Well, all I can say is that Kiwibacon seems to live in a different world to me. Most of my friends have commented that they don't even notice our cars changing gear. There can be a small issue at roundabouts etc., although the delay is nowhere near 2 seconds, more like the time needed for a manual change. As you use DSG you learn how to avid this by a small modification to driving style.

[Cumbria Steve]

There's a used 1.4 TSi SE manual at Border Cars in Workington (Approved Skoda).

£12,995 with 5k - seems very cheap...

http://www.skoda.net...px?id=602500454

Was gonna have a look at it myself but it's too far away!

Went to view and there it was GONE.

Apparently it was an ex demo in mint condition and the low price was due to their quota requiring the disposal of one Yeti to allow delivery of another, it's all to do with this modern units against stock held target rubbish.

Whilst there I did have a drive of an Octavia with the 1.4 engine, simply to see what I thought of the engines power and it was very impressive.

Then had the usual why not buy new, we have one of these, there is a so and so coming etc, my reply was give me a ring next time you have to clear one from stock.

[BobbyG79]

Went to view and there it was GONE.

Apparently it was an ex demo in mint condition and the low price was due to their quota requiring the disposal of one Yeti to allow delivery of another, it's all to do with this modern units against stock held target rubbish.

Whilst there I did have a drive of an Octavia with the 1.4 engine, simply to see what I thought of the engines power and it was very impressive.

Then had the usual why not buy new, we have one of these, there is a so and so coming etc, my reply was give me a ring next time you have to clear one from stock.

Wow seems like it really was a bargain, I was a little suspicious of the low price until I realised it was a Skoda dealer....

I have my eye on a 1.2 Elegance which is up for the same price, test drove it last week, taking the wife along tomorrow

[the_raz]

All DSG's and I think possibly manuals cut power when the brake is applied, so that it is not easy to very fast standing starts like in my old 530d. No point in left foot braking with a DSG.

Except the DSG has "launch control" if you really want to start quickly: disable ESP, put gear selector in S, floor both throttle and brake at the same time. When the car runs smoothly at ~2500 RPM with both pedals fully pressed you are ready to go. Hold on to your hat and release the brake pedal

Disclaimer: This works at least for a Roomster 1.2 TSI DSG, so I guess it should work with most of the other DSGs as well - at least the DSG7.

[BossFox]

Well, all I can say is that Kiwibacon seems to live in a different world to me. Most of my friends have commented that they don't even notice our cars changing gear. There can be a small issue at roundabouts etc., although the delay is nowhere near 2 seconds, more like the time needed for a manual change. As you use DSG you learn how to avid this by a small modification to driving style.

Same here.

[notyeti]

21st century says it all. Better mpg on 1.2 and a must-have with 1.2 in my opinion, which needs lots of gear changes.

I was in the Jura this month, up and down steep steep hills, and the DSG changed down to give me the right amount of engine braking - it chose the gear that kept the speed almost constant - just occasional dabs on the brakes. Very rarely went to manual override. It is a magic box.

My wife has a semi-auto Jazz, and my daughter a semi-auto Fiesta, both with electronic shifts, they are terrible by comparison. You have to keep an ear on the engine note and feather the accelerator to get reasonable changes - the experience on the Jazz and Fiesta is like changing a manual box, but not having a clutch or gear lever to bother with. Now the Yeti, in comparision, you just drive it. Forget about gears. You just hear the engine revs changing, no jerks at all.

cons:

It sometimes has a think for a second or so with getting started immediately after a stop, or suddenly flooring it - perhaps the delay in reality in a manual would be the same, but because you are the cause of the delay, you don't notice it. Be interesting to see a race-off with a manual. In the DSG the expectation of instant response is there, and you notice a lag, while the box changes gears. I think it is more to do with expectation, and that you are not busy with your foot and hand, than a real difference, if you see what I mean! But it can be disconcerting till you get used to it. I put it in sport when overtaking, which seems to help with the lag from suddenly flooring it - and you can anticipate the overtake and speed up before committing - the box knows what it is doing then. Like changing down in a way. But the adjustment to driving style from a manual is pretty minimal, unlike the Jazz and Fiesta.

[bahnstormer vrs]

Except the DSG has "launch control" if you really want to start quickly: disable ESP, put gear selector in S, floor both throttle and brake at the same time. When the car runs smoothly at ~2500 RPM with both pedals fully pressed you are ready to go. Hold on to your hat and release the brake pedal

Disclaimer: This works at least for a Roomster 1.2 TSI DSG, so I guess it should work with most of the other DSGs as well - at least the DSG7.

You suggested this in a different thread a few weeks if I recall correctly and I tried it in my Yeti but it didn't seem to work.

I'd anticipated that the 'two pedals at the same time' would have the DSG 'box in neutral and the engine revs 'limited' but the engine/'box were trying to drive working against the brake; so I let it go.

I must admit though that I'm not sure that I presses both pedals simultaneously; might re-try tonight.

PS> My wife's car is a Roomster 1.6 Auto 'tip' (traditional auto with lock up clutches). It's good for an Auto but the DSG in my Yeti is much better for smoothness and response.

[g6zru]

Deleted

[Cumbria Steve]

Wow seems like it really was a bargain, I was a little suspicious of the low price until I realised it was a Skoda dealer....

I have my eye on a 1.2 Elegance which is up for the same price, test drove it last week, taking the wife along tomorrow

I drove the 1.2 and thought it was good, then I tried the 1.4 today and that extra 200cc is so noticeable.

I am still struggling to understand why they priced this one as such, even the salesman said they knew it would go within a day due to the price.

I was once told that the main dealers can be penalised if they don't meet the monthly targets, perhaps it's cheaper to take a couple of grand loss than let that happen.

Which if true means it would be great to know when their target deadline was due each month, means a much improved chance of haggling them down.

[Zib]

I drove the 1.2 and thought it was good, then I tried the 1.4 today and that extra 200cc is so noticeable.

I find this fascinating, because I drove the 1.2 and 1.4 almost back to back, and concluded that there was next to no difference. So I am now wondering if it has more to do with how the last driver has been driving the car (because of the computer systems adapting to the driver's style) and how run-in the engine is. I guess if a sales rep takes the demo car and thrashes it, it will feel quite lively to the next test-driver.

On the points around abruptness of the gear-change on the DSG, this is probably again to do with learnt driving style. Every DSG I've driven has been super-smooth in changing once it had adapted to the way I drive. In my experience, the only changes that are not smooth are [a] going from neutral to 1 when starting off, especially on a cold morning, and when the gear-box has been caught out because of a sudden transition from hard braking to hard acceleration.

Edited 4 October, 2012 by Zib

[patnmand]

You've got all the upsides to the DSG already. Here are the reasons you might not want one.

The gearshifts are harsh. A conventional auto slurs it's shifts with the torque converter as it pulls the engine revs up or down. The DSG releases one clutch and grabs the next. Taking about 0.6 seconds.

0.6 seconds is great if you are in a hurry. If you are cruising it just feels wrong.

The gearbox pre-selects the next gear based on what it thinks you are doing. If it gets this wrong it takes about 2 seconds to sort it out. 2 seconds is a very long time to be without any drive when traffic is bearing down on you. For some reason round-abouts flummox this gear prediction, it can't get it right. On the test drive I took the DSG box got it wrong three times. There was only one roundabout. Other times it was sitting at un-necessarily high or low revs.

The fuel economy is worse than a manual. Sure the official figures for the dry 7 speed box put it as beating the manual by a fraction in the standard test. But this is because VW have done an excellent job tailoring the shift pattern to the standard test. Compared to a manual box you've got more clutches, hydraulic pumps and actuators running which all require power from your fuel tank.

If anything goes wrong with the ECU or clutch packs, it'll cost you thousands. These boxes are still powered by a dual mass flywheel. So you are potentially still up for the same labour cost as a clutch change in a manual box. But you'll save maybe 80 quid on the clutch.

Honestly I prefer a conventional auto with an aggressive lockup program to a DSG. I rate the ZF 6 speed in the mondeo above the 6 speed DSG in the superb.

I'm now driving a manual Yeti after two DSG equipped Skodas in a row (140bhp DSG Octavia diesel, and 170bhp Superb diesel) and I agree with many of the points above, particularly the one about roundabouts - the DSG does seem to be confused by them and you have to give up on any idea of going for small gaps. Yes you could use the paddles to force it into the right gear on approach, but what is the point of that? Overall the DSG is a lovely box, but it's far from perfect and there are plenty of horror stories about big bills when they fail. After much soul searching (and the fact that DSG Yetis are fairly rare) I opted to go back to a manual. 1 week in and no regrets, although I'm sure I'll miss the auto next time I get stuck in traffic!

[rockhopper]

Except the DSG has "launch control" if you really want to start quickly: disable ESP, put gear selector in S, floor both throttle and brake at the same time. When the car runs smoothly at ~2500 RPM with both pedals fully pressed you are ready to go. Hold on to your hat and release the brake pedal

Disclaimer: This works at least for a Roomster 1.2 TSI DSG, so I guess it should work with most of the other DSGs as well - at least the DSG7.

This doesn't work in my Yeti either. It didn't work in my previous DSG Octavia either.

[rockhopper]

I can get the engine to about 1100-1200rpm max with both feet flat on the floor and having done all that I should do etc, turning off traction control into sport etc in the correct order.

Edited 4 October, 2012 by rockhopper

[Cumbria Steve]

I find this fascinating, because I drove the 1.2 and 1.4 almost back to back, and concluded that there was next to no difference. So I am now wondering if it has more to do with how the last driver has been driving the car (because of the computer systems adapting to the driver's style) and how run-in the engine is. I guess if a sales rep takes the demo car and thrashes it, it will feel quite lively to the next test-driver.

You probably have a very valid point, when I tried the 1.2 it was a new demonstrator and had less than 50 miles on it..plus a very watchful salesman next to me.

Today with the 1.4 the younger salesmans first words were 'lets get out there and give it some wellie to show you how good it is'

So.. the comparisom was between two totally different drives and I suppose all I learnt really was.... don't but a demo car the young lad has been showing off.

[Kiwibacon]

Is the Superb exactly the same?

Are the gearing the same?

Is it exactly the same gearbox?

Sorry, but I would prefer to take note of people who have actual experienced of the SAME vehicle, not just a different model by the same manufacturer.

Yes it's exactly the same engine and box. 103kw tdi and DQ250 DSG with a haldex out back. The gear ratios inside may be a little different, I haven't checked. But none of the points I raised were about gear ratios.

I don't expect anyone in the DSG fan club to agree with me. But many others will.

Edited 4 October, 2012 by Kiwibacon

[ParaYeti]

I guess if a sales rep takes the demo car and thrashes it, it will feel quite lively to the next test-driver.

It doesn't quite work like that.

It uses pre programmed modes and adapts to the style of your driving, at that moment, by anticipating gear changes.

It doesn't program itself into waaaarrp waaaarrp mode, then when the next sedentry driver kicks it up, it goes waaarrp waaarrp down the road with flames coming out of the tail pipe

[Llanigraham]

So you don't know if the gearing is the same, which can make a big difference.

And you haven't actually driven a DSG Yeti.

Yeah, right!

When you do, pleae let us know.

[Kiwibacon]

So you don't know if the gearing is the same, which can make a big difference.

And you haven't actually driven a DSG Yeti.

Yeah, right!

When you do, pleae let us know.

So the exact same driveline in a different body shell with gearing maybe a few % different (maybe exactly the same) will do the following:

Never shift harshly.

Never get the gear prediciton wrong and spend a few seconds sorting it out.

Never hang in a gear higher or lower than your would manually select.

Get better fuel economy than a manual.

Never have issues which will cost money to fix.

Would that be your position?

I have no problem listing the positives and negatives of anything I own. It appears some can only list the positives and deny anything else could be possible.

[Totally Square]

I have no problem listing the positives and negatives of anything I own. It appears some can only list the positives and deny anything else could be possible.

So to summarise the opinions.... DSG seems to work for some and not for others. Caveat emptor or whatever!