Going Electric... Richard's EV thread.

[BossFox]

So your pre-order in for a Model X?

 

Good to see you are still on here.

 

No, don't need a 7 seater and being Model S based the same battery means less range, by around 20% due to more weight and drag.

Nice it can have a towbar... but towing a car will likely see range plummet.

 

If we get another, it'll probably be the Model III which is going to be a smaller, more family biased Tesla.

It could possible even tempt the Mrs out of her Yeti if it's small enough.  I doubt anything else will.

Edited 4 January, 2016 by BossFox

[900000]

Good to see you are still on here.

 

No, don't need a 7 seater and being Model S based the same battery means less range, by around 20% due to more weight and drag.

Nice it can have a towbar... but towing a car will likely see range plummet.

 

If we get another, it'll probably be the Model III which is going to be a smaller, more family biased Tesla.

It could possible even tempt the Mrs out of her Yeti if it's small enough.  I doubt anything else will.

 

 

I'm still here. My poor Yeti might sit in London doing little whilst I lead the high life in my CVT Toyota Corolla SEDAN in Istanbul (here for work) but I still check the site once in a blue moon. (OR get emails to what I'm subscribed to - such as this thread).

 

The Model X does seem to be needlessly heavy vs the S. I was not convinced by the heavy gullwing rear doors either until I saw Elon Musk's launch presentation showing how a normal minivan gives you no access once the sliding door is open when you have a 300mm gap or so, when the double hinged gullwing miraculously does! For kids the X makes a LOT of sense regardless of the extra weight and lower range. Even as a five seater those doors are what would seal the deal for me if I had had kids.

[Xavier]

I've finally spent an hour or two reading through the entire thread from the very start with your LEAF adventures.

Interesting how "meh" your view was on the Tesla when you were offered the test drive a few years ago.

Surely it wasn't the YOLO reason? Maybe you hadn't reached your quota for cars purchased in 2015? :P

 

Worth noting the 50% buy back deal is based on a finance package.

Max deposit is 40% and shortest term is 4 years.

If you do this you will pay a bit over £5,000 in interest on a car like mine.

So in the end I just bought it and have decided to take a bit of a chance on resale values...

 

Aah, I hadn't realised that was limited to the hire purchase options.

 

Just checked with my accountant and you (well I anyway) can't claim the VAT back as it's not used 100% exclusively by the business - so only if you're a taxi driver or driving instructor really.

 

Also, the government is bringing in a new tax for zero emissions EVs. Starting low at something like 2 or 3% but will be ranking up over the next few years which will have an impact on business customers and the benefit in kind tax point of view :(

[Xavier]

Another potential stumbling block is charging options in the UK.

Going by this: https://www.zap-map.com/charge-points/public-charging-point-networks/

If you have a Tesla, then the Supercharging network is a no-brainer (providing you have one on your route).

After that, or if you don't have a Tesla, the only free option is ecotricity Electric Highway network.

After that, you're down to subscription or pay per use terminals which really seem to penalise with some of the costs, if the information on zapmap is correct.

 

The one thing that does worry me with the Supercharing Tesla network is what will happen when the Model 3 comes out? Currently, I understand supercharging is pretty easy and judging by Richard's account, you never really have to queue for one as the EVs that use them are relatively few (just the model S). But if an affordable Model 3 means sales take off, then the percentage of EVs which are Teslas will rocket meaning SCs will be in a far greater demand - assuming Model 3 cars will use them... At least you won't have to wait too long in a queue as they charge fast

[Skoda_Saint]

On a more worrying note:

 

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/tesla-model-bursts-flames-while-183006213.html

 

Not sure if true or not, given the authenticity of some stories, however worth keeping an eye on.

Edited 4 January, 2016 by Skoda_Saint

[Xavier]

There was a Tesla that went up in flames - not sure if it's the one on your link which doesn't work for me.

The one that I saw was due to a battery rupture caused by a big chunk of debris on the road that tore through some cells on the underside of the car. The car is designed with firewalls so damage should be limited to certain areas. Also, a petrol-powered car has far more immediate explosive energy should the fuel light than an EV.

 

Apparently, the fire on that Tesla was partly due to the fire services not dealing with it properly.

 

Also, Elon Musk then wrote an open letter explaining the causes and appeasing the potential concerns people have which goes to show how much faith they have in the design.

 

Tesla share prices took a hit, but have since more than bounced back and carried on growing over time.

 

Edit: ahh it's the Norway one. Will be interesting to see what comes of the investigation.

Edited 4 January, 2016 by Xavier

[BossFox]

There have been one or two scare stories about fires in EVs, but I don't go into them.

Mainly because:

 

1. I don't have the full facts without media "interpretation".

2. They fault to mention how many petrol and diesel cars catch fire each year.

3. The number of cases is never put into context because it's small, but that doesn't make a good headline.

 

In the last two years I've had two diesel transit minibuses go up in smoke due to wiring issues in the engine bay.

But that's not such a topical story.  Worldwide a huge number of regular cars catch fire every year and hundreds of people unfortunately die in them.

[BossFox]

I've finally spent an hour or two reading through the entire thread from the very start with your LEAF adventures.

Interesting how "meh" your view was on the Tesla when you were offered the test drive a few years ago.

Surely it wasn't the YOLO reason? Maybe you hadn't reached your quota for cars purchased in 2015? :p

 

The two main reasons I didn't buy first Tesla in late 2013 (I was reservation number 75 of the original 100) was because after the test drive it didn't impress me as much.

It lacked all year round traction being rear drive only and also the interior was poor for the cost.

These two points I raised with Tesla when they asked me while I wasn't proceeding.

 

Tesla are obviously very good at recording this, as I was contacted around four or five months ago to let me know the improved Model S would be available with a number of options including a better quality interior and better seats.  Plus four wheel drive.

 

I couldn't get over a very expensive car with an interior no better in quality than my Yeti.  I didn't consider the EV drivetrain worth the £50k loading on top.

Since then they have done a lot of work, with the cars now having a lot more kit than previous.

[Xavier]

Interesting stuff. It goes to show how good their customer feedback program is. I guess the fact it's an expensive car means they didn't have millions of people to answer to so it's relatively easy to give a truly personnalised approach - I'm not complaining, on the contrary

 

I presume you find the next gen seats more comfortable than the ones in the car you tried a few years ago?

 

Also, what about the quality of the interior? Sounds like it's made substantial improvements in terms of finish and how refined it is compared to the test model you tried beforehand?

 

I don't know how long a test drive waiting list, if there is one. I did register a week ago but haven't heard anything since. But I'm almost compelled to drive down to Heathrow tomorrow and have a look at one in the flesh and speak to them and see what they say

 

Is there a UK-centric Tesla user group / forum you know of? Being predominantly US-based, it's sometimes difficult to find the answers and gauge what it's like. I guess I just must get to see one in the flesh

[vRS Joe]

I blame Richard for me getting a Leaf. Maybe I'll end up in a Tesla Model III next now lol

 

Excellent and very informative thread Richard, as always. 

Edited 4 January, 2016 by vRS Joe

[BossFox]

I presume you find the next gen seats more comfortable than the ones in the car you tried a few years ago?

 

Also, what about the quality of the interior? Sounds like it's made substantial improvements in terms of finish and how refined it is compared to the test model you tried beforehand?

 

I don't know how long a test drive waiting list, if there is one. I did register a week ago but haven't heard anything since. But I'm almost compelled to drive down to Heathrow tomorrow and have a look at one in the flesh and speak to them and see what they say

 

Is there a UK-centric Tesla user group / forum you know of? Being predominantly US-based, it's sometimes difficult to find the answers and gauge what it's like. I guess I just must get to see one in the flesh

 

Yes, the next gen seats are a noticeable improvement and have bigger side bolsters.

The upgraded interior option brings a number of improvements including leather on the dash, alcantara on the top part of the dash and mood lighting, among a few other things.  It makes quite a difference.

 

I think it took a few weeks for my test drive.

 

Register on the Tesla website, there is a forum there with a UK specific area.

[B33fy]

...But then other things that are really cool normal cars don't get.

Like the ability to see it's +5.2c this morning in the car on my phone and have it up to +20c in about 3 minutes before I came out.

Arrh.. gadget top trumps.. Yep, got that on the Merc, preheat interior, via an app or preset a time..

My turn,, rear collision preparation, alarm, pretension belts, adjust seats, close windows, clench buttocks, await impact. Lol

[Xavier]

Register on the Tesla website, there is a forum there with a UK specific area.

Is there? I'm on there registered but can only see https://my.teslamotors.com/forums/discussions/tesla-model-s which doesn't appear UK-specific. The https://my.teslamotors.com/en_GB/forums/discussions/tesla-model-s link appears to be the same.

[Xavier]

Another interesting guide / checklist written by a Tesla user: http://nickjhowe.com/tesla/modelsguide.html

Haven't read through it yet.

 

What I will search for though is if there's an official "feature request" list on what you would like developed for the car. A couple I can think of:

- ability to record onto a USB stick the videos of front and rear cameras, essentially removing the need for a separate dashcam.

- ability for the browser to play back videos. I think this is more of a codec / browser limitation than a safety concern - it would be easy to disable video when driving above a certain speed.

- I read somewhere that they've started opening up an API for third party software integration. I think there'd be a true market for third party app development which could be vetted for by an official Tesla software store.

 

edit: maybe there are some parts of the official TM forums that are only available to confirmed Tesla owners. For example, new features are apparently documented here: https://my.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/punch-list#new

Edited 4 January, 2016 by Xavier

[BossFox]

Is there? I'm on there registered but can only see https://my.teslamotors.com/forums/discussions/tesla-model-s which doesn't appear UK-specific. The https://my.teslamotors.com/en_GB/forums/discussions/tesla-model-s link appears to be the same.

 

Odd, I see this.

 

[clv101]

356 Wh/mi translates into a 90kW battery range of 252 miles.

Very interesting, thanks for the report.

Thinking about that 356 Wh/mi figure. That's 1.3 megajoules of energy per mile.

A litre of diesel has ~32 MJ and will get you some 11 miles, so 2.9 MJ per mile. Makes the electric look efficient? However, remember that to generate the 1.3 MJ of electricity from fossil fuels (and to distribute it) is less than 50% efficient taking the Tesla's 1.3 to at least 2.6 MJ... so same ballpark as the internal combustion engine.

Electric cars really come into their own when using nuclear, wind, hydro, solar etc. ie primary sources of electricity. There's little advantage in using coal and gas fired electricity - might as well stick to oil (or gas) in an internal combustion engine.

Edited 5 January, 2016 by clv101

[Xavier]

Ahh I get it. I don't see any of the clubs section, only the ones at the top - general, roadster, model s, model x...

 

edit: this is what I get:

Edited 5 January, 2016 by Xavier

[BossFox]

Very interesting, thanks for the report.

Thinking about that 356 Wh/mi figure. That's 1.3 megajoules of energy per mile.

A litre of diesel has ~32 MJ and will get you some 11 miles, so 2.9 MJ per mile. Makes the electric look efficient? However, remember that to generate the 1.3 MJ of electricity from fossil fuels (and to distribute it) is less than 50% efficient taking the Tesla's 1.3 to at least 2.6 MJ... so same ballpark as the internal combustion engine.

Electric cars really come into their own when using nuclear, wind, hydro, solar etc. ie primary sources of electricity. There's little advantage in using coal and gas fired electricity - might as well stick to oil (or gas) in an internal combustion engine.

 

I don't buy into any of the green arguments and so can't get into a debate about them.

 

What I can tell you is that I'd rather the emissions from making energy were coming out of a power station well out of town than in a car going past my house or kids playgroup.

What EV's do is move pollution around.  Global instead of local.

Local pollution in some areas of the UK is a real issue.

[Xavier]

Very interesting, thanks for the report.

Thinking about that 356 Wh/mi figure. That's 1.3 megajoules of energy per mile.

A litre of diesel has ~32 MJ and will get you some 11 miles, so 2.9 MJ per mile. Makes the electric look efficient? However, remember that to generate the 1.3 MJ of electricity from fossil fuels (and to distribute it) is less than 50% efficient taking the Tesla's 1.3 to at least 2.6 MJ... so same ballpark as the internal combustion engine.

Electric cars really come into their own when using nuclear, wind, hydro, solar etc. ie primary sources of electricity. There's little advantage in using coal and gas fired electricity - might as well stick to oil (or gas) in an internal combustion engine.

I really don't think it's easy to do an accurate comparison. There will be hidden / variable costs that are impossible to take into account.

 

For fuel (diesel / petrol), you have:

- cost of extraction of crude oil

- cost of transport of crude oil to refinery

- energy requirements of refinery to refine into usable fuel

- transport of usable fuel to distribution network

 

For leccy, you have:

- cost of extraction of fossil source (coal / gas)

- refining of coal / gas (I presume some plants are where the raw materials are extracted)

- transport of refined gas to power stations

- distribution of electric power (included in anyone's rates so not really an additional cost)

 

So the argument about 50% efficiency of obtaining leccy from fossil fuels isn't the only side: you have to take into account the equivelent cost to get the diesel (refinery, transport to distribution network). I'm sure you can knock a few 10% off there.

 

Of course, when you get to using renewable / primary leccy sources, it's the most efficient way

 

It's a real encouragement to get solar at one's house with either a feed in tariff. Alternatively, Tesla are releasing their power wall things. I'm not sure how "competitive" that solution will be if FITs are available. But where they are not, it would be interesting to see the RoI you can get on that (charge batteries in power wall, release at night for home leccy / recharging EV).

 

edit: just seen this video as a dig at Musk / Tesla / EVs in general. What a load of laughable tosh! I wonder who made it?

Edited 5 January, 2016 by Xavier

[BossFox]

I have 4kW of solar on the roof at home.

At weekends it meant I could charge the LEAF or KIA for nothing if the weather is half decent.

[Xavier]

Woohoo! Tesla just called me. Test drive tomorrow from their Heathrow branch.

[BossFox]

Woohoo! Tesla just called me. Test drive tomorrow from their Heathrow branch.

 

Be interesting to hear your thoughts on here.

[Xavier]

Be interesting to hear your thoughts on here.

Yup, I'll be going with my camera and have started a list of questions

Need to decide who to bring along - they said bring up to three friends. So I'm now seeing who's free and could think of other things to look out for / ask

[Wardy]

Sounds good Xav. Also seems to be a great approach that Tesla have. Very canny turning a test drive into a social gathering

 

Thanks for the comprehensive review posts as well Richard - certainly very interesting

[BossFox]

Our new KIAs turned up at work today...