1.8TSI and 2.0TSI engine failures

[Billbow]

Ok call me paranoid !

In my earlier post #142 I mentioned that my engine will not rev over 4k when stationary but fine whilst driving.

I only discovered this on Sunday due to hearing a metallic rattle at between 5-6k and wanted to investigate that noise whilst stationary inside my garage.

So my question is; should this engine rev over 4k when stationary. Is this is normal or does Chilledboy and myself have a similar problem.

Got my 4th main dealer service tomorrow.

2.0 tsi,Oct 09, Manual, 21,000 miles

Thanks.

[Yeti_Man]

Not revving over 4,000rpm when stationary is perfectly normal.

[JB-)]

There's one missing from the list:

 

B33fy - 2010 Octavia vRS 2.0TSI - 33,000 miles. Tensioner failure on starting. B33fy replaced the engine himself.

 

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/275526-2010-octavia-vrs-fl-petrol-ccz-engine-ancillaries-for-sale/#entry3260058

[Yeti_Man]

Guys, am I reading the current situation correctly? There are no revised parts available that have yet proved themselves yet? ie even the latest cars with the latest known revised parts HAVE failed? :wonder:  

[JB-)]

Guys, am I reading the current situation correctly? There are no revised parts available that have yet proved themselves yet? ie even the latest cars with the latest known revised parts HAVE failed? :wonder:  

 

Not sure when the latest revision of the tensioner came out but there have certainly been failures on cars from 2009, 10, 11, and 12. So far most have been 2009 cars as you might expect, and there now seems to be a few 2010 cars cropping up.

Edited 9 October, 2013 by JB-)

[NIGELD]

piv34uk,

 

I do not want to reveal who the dealer is until I see what they do next now that I have given them the car to examine.  If you have any contacts in VAG ask them if it is possible to search the for TPIs without using the VIN, see earlier posts.  Obviously they should not do anything that may cause them problems with their employers.

 

a-duncan

 

Did they give you a definitive reason for the cause of the damage.  A broken valve spring seems a very unusual 'first' cause.  However, if the timing chain tensioner failed then it is possible that the piston hits the 'open' valve and breaks the spring, so, the first cause may have been the 'defective' tensioner.

 

DGW

 

Thanks for your continued involvement.  Given the situation with a-Duncan I wonder whether the original cause of damage (chain tensioner)  is being hidden by giving the secondary damage as the cause (sneaky)?

 

The dealer has mine in bits at the moment so I will post the results of their investigation when they get back to me.

[Higgy 69]

This is all very sad. Yes modern cars don't rust but everything else seems to break - which costs more to fix!  What with injectors & DPF on the CR engine and now cam chain issues on the petrol, it looks like my Mk1 vRS might have to hang around a bit longer.

I was wondering if the automatic cam chain adjuster has an access from outside the engine?  As I have a Honda CBR600 motorbike and Honda are currently on their third or so design of 'automatic' adjuster.  When you fit a new adjuster the plunger which applies the pressure to the chain is retracted, once fitted to the engine you remove a little metal tool and the plunger takes up the slack.  I am sure that the plunger just gets stuck over time and stops taking up the slack, leading to the first tell-tale sign of the engine being noiser at idle.  Then there is enough slack for the chain to jump a tooth.

If the plunger can be retracted and released again it would take out the slack and stop the cam chain from jumping a tooth.  'Exercising' the tensioner might be a possible preventative measure?

This explains it: http://cbrforum.com/forum/stickies-91/how-replace-your-automatic-cam-chain-tensioner-104184/  
 

[Higgy 69]

Error.

Edited 9 October, 2013 by Higgy 69

[Gti Jazz Blue]

The issue is the failure of the ratchet mechanism, that is there to stop the chain becoming too slack, once the oil pressure is lost, that allows the chain to become too slack and the timing jumps on next start up.

[piv34uk]

Update: Car picked up this morning and Taken to dealer, they had a quick listen and confirmed new engine would be needed to my mate who works for Vag/Rac assist...loan car has been dropped off at our house (new Octy 1.4) Dealers have been in touch with my wife to ask what happened...One of their techs was going to run some checks then contact SUK.... Hopefully new engine will be installed next week I would like to think, still in warranty but its the not knowing that annoys me

 

Phil

Nigeld, mate at VW is aware of TPI but if he prints,  his boss knows......saw the TPI myself as mate on Rac assist has access to Geko which is VW linked, again cant get it in black and white but they know there is a major problem :-(

[davejones2]

For the poster above - the problems with the injectors & DPF were with the PD 170 engine, not the CR. So far the faulty dpf sensor seems to be the main, easily fixable problem on the CR.

 

What must be very frustrating to those TSI owners after the reports of all these failures is that I would expect a reasonable proportion would have been put off the TDI CR engine back in 2009/10 because of well-publicised fears of modern diesel issues like the DPF / DMF + regular cambelt changes etc ramping up the running costs.

 

Seems like you can't win.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DanSej6]

The dealers DON'T need a VIN to search for TPI's.

 

They can't however bang a TPI number into the system and see what it comes up with. Might be able to via their Desktop function but definately not in ELSA.

In ELSA however you can put a general vehicle description in, so 2010 Octavia 1Z, CCZA engine with whichever gearbox code and you can search for anything that may be relevant, just drop down boxes, sub-sections and see what's what.

 

I had a nosey on the Skoda system and for any 2009-2010 Octavia with a CCZA engine I could not find TPI 2024485/5 or any later version. Only one I could find relating to timing chain faults was a different number that seemed to blame the chain stretching which could be identified by the tensioner mechanism being protuded more than 4 (i think) notches.

[NIGELD]

Hi Phil,

 

Thanks for the update and confirmation on the TPI which may be useful for all of us.  I understand your car is in Aylesbury, mine is in Farnham Common, I mentioned to them today that there may be one in their Aylesbury branch..  I have asked for the tensioner to be kept for my inspection when they get to it.  Interesting to note DanSej6's comment above given that your mates were able to find it.

 

DanSej6,

 

Thanks again for good information and very odd that you could not see it in your Skoda system.  I think there is a recent update issue of ELSAWIN (4.1?), is this the one you have?  The version I was told about was a 2010 one apparently.   I wonder if the TPI has been removed from a later version, which would seem a very serious act?.

[Auric Goldfinger]

Hope not a Stupid Question or something I've missed but what is " TPI "

[DanSej6]

If VW Assist can see it but Skoda dealers can't that would suggest it's a brand specific TPI.

Happens more often than you'd think tbh.

 

If I remember I'll have a scout around on Desktop in the morning and see if the 2024485 TPI shows on there or not.

 

TPI stands for Technical Product Information.

 

Basically if there is a "known" issue or some info they need to give dealers. There's one on there that states not to change one of the outer window/door seals for a wind noise as it's a dust seal and replacing it won't cure it.

Edited 9 October, 2013 by DanSej6

[Auric Goldfinger]

^^  Thanks DanSej6 ^^

[neil_f]

I've got elsawin 4.1 and when search under octavia with ccza engine the tpi 2024485 IS displayed. It explains what fault codes will be present and how the dealer can test the tensioner to determine if it is at fault.

[DanSej6]

The info available to dealers on ELSA PRO doesn't show that TPI.

 

Maybe it's changed to the one I mentioned earlier but it's neigh on impossible to find older ones

[NIGELD]

I have been absolutely assured that it is in the 2010 version of ELSAWIN and it shows up by searching for:

 

Make =  SKODA,      Year  =  2010,     Model  =  1Z35SC,    Gearbox  =  LQZ  Then 'search'

 

Find the TPI in 'Technical Service Manual' under:-

 

'Technical Product Information'

'Engine'

'Engine Operation'

'Dimensional Accuracy'

 

You will find  "Damage of Timing Chain Tensioner  (2024485/5)"

[DanSej6]

Elsa Win and Elsa Pro are different things.

Dealerships are told to use Elsa Pro as it's "live" and "updated daily" and hence should be upto date. Elsa Win (as far as I'm aware) is updated every so often by disc. Elsa Win is supposed to be a back-up for dealerships in case the server/network goes down (which it likes to do quite frequently!)

 

I'll make a note of all the above details and do a bit more digging tomorrow morning.

[NIGELD]

Hi Neil_f,  

 

Well done and thank you for the confirmation.  Without breaching copyright or getting yourself in any other type of trouble would you be able to post the full contents for all to refer to so they do not have to go through the total frustration of being told it does not exist.  This effort wasted two weeks of my life to get pretty much nowhere)

[DanSej6]

16400/P0016/000022 - Bank 1: Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed ??Sensor (G28): Incorrect Correlation Possible Symptoms

• Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) ON

Possible Causes

• Timing Issue
• Camshaft Adjuster

Possible Solutions

• Check Setting of Timing Belt
• Check Timing of Intake / Exhaust Cams
• Check Cam Adjusters as per Repair Manual

Technical Product Information
Transaction No.: 2024485/5
Damage of timing chain tensioner
Release date: 27-Jun-2011


Customer statement / workshop Findings

Engine can not be started, the Check warning lamp is on.
In the engine CU, the foul is Stored Following:
•
CMP Sensor-G40 00022 P0016 Engine Speed ??(RPM) sensor-G28 Incorrect allocation;
•
00808 G61 P0328 Knock Sensor 1 Circuit High.


Technical background
Because of the defective function of the timing chain tensioner, the timing chain get too loose May DURING the start Causing change the valve timing. This May result in the contact of valves with pistons.

Production Change
Reinforced timing chain tensioner - new part 109 467 06H T.
It was Introduced to series production in CW 20, 2010.

 

The above is what I found via a quick bit of digging on google. I'll still check tomorrow (if I remember!) as to what a dealership can see.

[NIGELD]

DanSej6,

 

Nearly time for bed, but thanks for the above extract which I have seen before.  

 

I think what we all need is a full version, header, illustrations etc to stop any dealer saying 'it is not a real one'

 

A full version with confirmation that it relates to CCZA engined vehicles (Skoda, VW, Seat, Audi) from a legitimate VAG source would be invaluable in any small claims case but I am not sure that we will find any dealer prepared to confirm such a thing because of the possible repercussions to their dealership.

 

But maybe someone will step up to the plate and put an end to this saga?

[neil_f]

Hi Neil_f,

Well done and thank you for the confirmation. Without breaching copyright or getting yourself in any other type of trouble would you be able to post the full contents for all to refer to so they do not have to go through the total frustration of being told it does not exist. This effort wasted two weeks of my life to get pretty much nowhere)

The elsawin I have is a copy as I don't work for any dealers but it does give full description with diagrams and part numbers etc. I'll try and post it tomorrow anyway as surely it still proves to a dealer that this exists.

Also as far as I'm aware has no one approached watchdog or the motoring press about this with all the evidence of various failures? If this happens to mine I certainly would.

Edited 9 October, 2013 by neil_f

[neil_f]

Technical product information

Transaction No.: 2024485/5

Damage of timing chain tensioner

Release date: 27-Jun-2011

Customer statement / workshop findings

Engine cannot be started, the Check warning lamp is on.

In the engine CU, the following fault is stored:

•

00022 P0016 CMP Sensor -G40 Engine Speed (RPM) Sensor -G28 Incorrect allocation;

•

00808 P0328 Knock Sensor 1-G61 Circuit High.

Technical background

Because of the defective function of the timing chain tensioner, the timing chain may get too loose during the start causing a valve timing change. This may result in a contact of valves with pistons.

Production change

Reinforced timing chain tensioner – new part 06H 109 467 T.

It was introduced to series production in CW 20, 2010.

Measure

Check, repair:

1.

VAS check, Guided Fault Search.

2.

Remove the lower cover of the timing chain (see Elsa); check the timing chain tensioner function by pressing on the tensioning rail of the timing chain (Fig.1) against the tensioner. If the piston is inserted into the tensioner’s body (see Fig.2), the ratchet of the tensioner’s piston or the tensioner’s latch has been damaged. If you do not find a damaged timing chain tensioner even after a repeated check (see Fig.3), continue with point No. 6.

3.

If a damaged timing chain tensioner was found, continue with examining pistons and valves (removing cylinder head or using of endoscope).

4.

If pistons and valves are not damaged, replace the timing chain tensioner with the part 06H 109 467 T and carry out a new setting of the timing gear.

5.

If pistons and valves are damaged, replace the engine.

6.

Prior to a new timing chain setting, check the possible seizing of the camshafts. Repair by replacing the damaged parts.

7.

If only the timing chain setting is shifted without the above parts being damaged, the fault was caused by exceeding the maximum engine revolutions (see the printout of the fault memory of the engine CU). In this case, a warranty repair is not possible.

Fig.1

Fig.2

Fig.3

 

Warranty accounting instructions

Fault code / symptom:

1536 / 0010

 

Working positions:

When charging the repair, use one of the following possibilities concerning working positions according to the damage extent:

1.

Checking the damage

 

0150 0000

TU according to diagnosis protocol

 

1533 2033

TU according to current WP Catalogue

2.

Replacing chain tensioner

 

0150 0000

TU according to diagnosis protocol

 

1535 1954

TU according to current WP Catalogue

 

1570 1933

TU according to current WP Catalogue

 

or

 

0150 0000

TU according to diagnosis protocol

 

1535 1954

TU according to current WP Catalogue

 

2870 2033

TU according to current WP Catalogue

 

1570 0199

endoscope checking of pistons and valves

20 TU

3.

Engine replacement

 

0150 0000

TU according to diagnosis protocol

 

1533 1933

TU according to current WP Catalogue

 

1570 1933

TU according to current WP Catalogue

 

1001 1933

TU according to current WP Catalogue

 

1002 3383

TU according to current WP Catalogue

 

or

 

 

0150 0000

TU according to diagnosis protocol

 

1533 1933

TU according to current WP Catalogue

 

2870 2033

TU according to current WP Catalogue

 

1570 0199

endoscope checking of pistons and valves

20 TU

 

1001 1933

TU according to current WP Catalogue

 

1002 3383

TU according to current WP Catalogue

 

Parts information

Timing chain tensioner: 06H 109 467 T