Interesting thread.

Is Gary's S3 a hot hatch?

In my view it's something else as it's more than just an A3 with bigger power output.

It'd far better engineered than a simple hatchback. It's far more able, safe and complete.

For me personally a hot hatch is similar to the basic hatch in the range, with a bit more power output.

So it's not very different under the skin and it's not a lot of money. four wheel drive... No.

The Focus ST is a hot hatch, I don't consider the RS one.

The S3/RS3, Focus RS etc... are all near £30k+

To me they are no longer hot hatches.

Not sure how you define them though. Other than as expensive.

I know this could apply to something like a 1.2 Corsa too, but I'd say better seats, slightly different appearance and a high revving engine. Doesn't have to be massively powerful or anything, but easy to throw around and fun/involving to drive while being easily able to get near the limits on the road.

Something like a 106 Rallye or a Twingo would be preferable to a modern turbo-charged box IMO. The easily exploitable performance and lack of nanny electronics etc would also help make them desirable (for me) over some n00b-WD thing with electronics controlling every input. It's why I like my Polo - quite high revving and 7k redline, reachable limits and, while not the best handling car ever (it's a VAG, I've come to expect that now!) it is properly good fun with only ABS to keep kill the fun.

As for 'anything that's like the Golf GTI' comment, I don't think I'd agree. A friend has a mkIV with the 2.0 115bhp engine. Hot is one thing it isn't!

That said, the trend seems to be for more power, so my opinion is clearly a bit outdated!

Edited 25 March, 201313 yr by TriggerFish

I think that the likes of the rs,s3,golfr etc... Are like super hatches

As a s4 is a hot sallon car but an rs4 is near enough a super car, those hatches are like super cars amongst hatches......if anyone understands what i mean

I know what you mean, HEADGASKETS, Williams was a pig for head gasket trouble.

Really? i was a member of Cliosport club for about 7 years and never heard of an F7R engine with headgasket trouble or the later F4R engine either. They even used the F7R in the megane coupe although it had lower compression ratio and simpler cams dont think these ever suffered with HG probs either. You getting mixed up with rover K-series or something? I never had any engine trouble with mine or my two 1.8 16v (valvers) which i also considered to be a hot hatches with 137bhp 0-60 8 secs. They were as quick as the golf gti or pug gti. The williams was something else although i was plagued through electrical issues and leaky sunroofs causing central locking faults they were all fantastic hot hatches. I got a little bit bored with renaults after my 172 and 172 exclusive so switched to Skoda's when the kids came along although if i could buy a brand new 0miles Williams i would again tomorrow in a heart beat. Just typing about its giving me goose bumps on the back of my neck lol. (Thats what a hot hatch should do)

Original hot hatches were not hatches at all - escort mexico, rs2000, avenger tiger ect. First real hot hatches were probably the likes of the chevette HS or Talbot lotus sunbeam

My opinion:

Driver involvement. It has to stir the soul. HP alone for me does not do it.

High horsepower (now more than ever) usually means greater refinement and this takes away something from the car. My two examples being driving a BMW M Coupe about 5 years ago and looking to buy a Nissan 200SX (S14a) about 10 years ago. No doubt 'fast' cars, but for me too refined. Did I buy the Nissan? No, I test drove a 206 GTi, which was much more fun and bought that.

Same with my Octy MK1 vRS, great car. Does what I want (at this point in my life) but can't see myself getting up early and going for a drive in it. So my Hot Hatch itch has been scratched by buying a 106 Rallye. Raw, have to work it hard and if you screw up it will spit you off the road. At 80MPH the Skoda hardly feels like it is moving.

Plus the noise...

http://youtu.be/8Gv-20dsF50

Edited 25 March, 201313 yr by Higgy 69

Higgy 69 You hit the nail on the head in my opinion. The 106 Rallye is probably more a hot hatch than the GTO version: screaming engine, no soundproofing and handles like a rollerskate. As I said elsewhere I would love one

I had a 1.6 205 gti, it had a four branch manifold, big bore (brush stale to hold the tailgate open) the odd tweak to the engine for performance, this was the only car I have ever owned that would hit the rev limiter in top gear, it was great fun even without power steering, A/C etc.

For me the best 'hot hatch' comes from the hot hatch era and it has to be the fiesta rsTurbo was quick practical and putting it in terms of today's motors in 1990 with. Bit of fettling would see you 200bhp that was/is such a cool little car. Would love one .

For me the best 'hot hatch' comes from the hot hatch era and it has to be the fiesta rsTurbo was quick practical and putting it in terms of today's motors in 1990 with. Bit of fettling would see you 200bhp that was/is such a cool little car. Would love one .

I was impressed with the last fiesta st, the handling and power went well together. When I took one for a test drive it felt just right. Don't think the salesman would of agreed with me though judging by how pale he was when we got back lol. Wasn't my fault his words were "what you waiting for? Go on then cane it". My m8 who was in the back seat said I didn't put a foot wrong, and told me how the salesman's knuckles just got whiter and whiter. Best bit was they let me test drive it with a no fear t shirt on with drive it like you stole it on lol

Sent from my Galaxy S3, not a Crapple!

I am wondering if the hot hatch still exists as a concept these days. My definition would be similar to the above as a small, light, raw, agile, and reasonably quick, rev-happy "shopping" car that would make you grin all the time and bring out the little devil sat on your shoulder telling you to go faster. It would also make you work to get the best from it. I'm not sure I can think of any modern car that ticks all those boxes... :(

Chris

I think the newer bunch of hot hatches if you can call them that - Focus RS, Astra VXr & Golf R & Renaultsport Megane to a certain extent have lost some of the Comunication between the driver and the road. Back in the good old days with my valvers and williams you could throw the car into a corner and just have blind faith it was going to stick when you were doing 70 down a country lane it felt like you were doing 100+ The tyres would squeel a bit and you sometimes get lift off overstear but mainly bags of understear but essentially it was all very predictable and you could play with the throttle to balance the car on what seamed a very wide saftey margin. Nowadays these new cars seam to scare the hell out of me. You can't feel the road. you have to be on the right tyres they bite you big time if you mess up and the main draw back is that you can be doing 90mph and hardly any noise or feeling that you are doing this speed. I think the safety of the cars has improved massively but with this has come extra weight and therfore the fun has gone. I once had a Nova 1.4 sri (90bhp) and although i know i will probably get flamed for saying this but it was more fun than the VRS. Not a very good car but put a smile on your face for hardly any money.

Problem is most cars are simply too fast, so to get anywhere near the edge of their limits (which is what makes it "fun") means you have to be driving at insane speeds. Electric / Electro hyrdraulic PS is also a step backwards IMO

Spot on!

Problem is most cars are simply too fast, so to get anywhere near the edge of their limits (which is what makes it "fun") means you have to be driving at insane speeds. Electric / Electro hyrdraulic PS is also a step backwards IMO

Any think thats fly by wire or drive by wire just feels wrong to me. Although i did drive one of my valvers that hard one day the exhaust manifold got so hot it melted the throttle cable inner sleve so the throttle cable got stuck open and the pedal wouldn't retract. was very fun though and much easier to replace a wire cable than fit & recode a potentiometer pedal.

This is why im very tempted by the new toyota GT thingy. ok its not a hatch & only got 200bhp no turbo and skinny wheels but they have made a deliberate attempt to give the driver some of that control back and some of the thrill of getting it close to the edge of adhesion and past it. Although it costs too much atm cant justify the price tag.

I'm on the lookout for a Nova 1.4SR personally. Such ludicrously poor grip it is hilarious.

I'm on the lookout for a Nova 1.4SR personally. Such ludicrously poor grip it is hilarious.

Mine was the SRi and the (i) made all the difference

Here she is sold her to a friend and i think its still a runner, Not really a hot hatch more luke warm but tremendous fun.

Pug 205 GTI was probably the funnest car I ever drove I suppose.

I only ever drove the 1.6, (which I borrowed from a mate for a few months

as I paid to tax it for him cos he was skint at the time) but it was a hoot,

I thought it made quite a nice sound as well. It would have been better still had

the clutch in it not been on the way out. Crap turning circle though iirc.

I dont think it has to be 200+hp at all

I watched Fifth gear last night... now i am not a big Tiff Needell fan to be honest but they were testing the Renault Twingo RS and the Suzuki Swift Sport

When ever I me personally think of a hot hatch its the likes of

the 106GTI, Suzuki Swift Sport, Saxo VTS, 205 GTI something N/A small light and chuckable

nothing any of todays "Hot Hatches" are unfortunately.

Fun is what defines a hot hatch. My Mk1 Golf GTi was just that and it helped teach me how to drive - along with my previous Capris and Nissan 200sx.

My remapped Octavia vRS was never fun, just competent at a lot of things. However, that's all in the past and I'm in something else at the moment.

I'm a bit Old Skool with my cars. My daily driver makes me smile each and every time I use it. With the cat free stainless system and heat wrapped manifold the noise is amazing. I redline it just for the sheer fun and seeing as the peak power comes in at about 7000rpm I have a great excuse.

As people have mentioned the modern breed are too big, too remote and too fast. Also the term Hot Hatch is a bit old now and is similar to calling a digital radio a 'wireless'. They are sort of the same but the modern version is far more complex, more powerful and can't be fixed with the tools from the shed any more. Things have moved on yet we are still using a nickname from the 1980s.

Maybe Briskoda can pioneer a new name for cars with 260bhp as standard and we can all be mentioned in Wikipedia for our efforts?

Pug 205 GTI was probably the funnest car I ever drove I suppose.

I only ever drove the 1.6, (which I borrowed from a mate for a few months

as I paid to tax it for him cos he was skint at the time) but it was a hoot,

I thought it made quite a nice sound as well. It would have been better still had

the clutch in it not been on the way out. Crap turning circle though iirc.

First new car I ever owned was the 1.6 205 GTI, and it was the most fun! I especially liked the lift of the throttle mid corner and die feature!

First new car I ever owned was the 1.6 205 GTI, and it was the most fun! I especially liked the lift of the throttle mid corner and die feature!

Not a car to play chicken in for sure!

The more I think of it, it's the aural excitement that means most fun to me, the sound of an engine working hard at high speed. In that resect, a remapped TSI is as dull as ditchwater (the TFSI I had previously sounded OK for a 4 cyl turbo). This is why, despite the practical benefits, I have an innate dislike of diesel engines, they are simply devoid of scintillating fun, including the big BMW 6 Cly versions. Hilarious for a while yes, but then where's the soul, the music? I had a bit of a facebook "debate" with a "friend" about the current generation of Alfas. Both of us are big fans, but since the classic Alfa V6 was ******ised by GM I have lost interest. A diesel Alfa Brera is nothing but a big girls blouse, and has no appeal whatsoever, despite the supermodel starlet looks

I know what you mean about the sound aspect.

My car sounds okay but doesn't sound like a sub 6 second

car, that's for sure. Trouble is I'm looking at 1500 quid minimum

to get a nice non res exhaust for it with sports cat.

Then there's 2-300 quid for a decent CAI

There is a valve in the stock exhaust which can be modded to

stay open which may alter the sound a bit. It's a free mod,

all you need is a bit of wire. I might give that a go and see

how it sounds then.

The sound is the main thing for me. I expect if I get an exhaust for the Octy it would make a world of difference. But its a lot of cash and for most of the time it is handy that it is generally silent.

I've a Honda CBR600 sat in the garage (will there ever be a summer again!), and the noise that thing makes over 10K rpm. Ummm nice. Although again, like old skool hot hatches, take the p*ss with it and your going to get spat off etc.

So noise and a bit of danger it is then! Two things the EU etc are clamping down on.

On the topic of the importance of the sound, anyone driven a 3 cylinder Corsa? I'd swear it's a 911 Carrera with the handbrake left on!

I have two demands for a car to be fun: noise and steering feel. I don't care if it under or oversteers, that's what your feet and hands are for, but not knowing what friction there is between the tyres and the road is a major failing. Ideally manual R&P, or hydraulic PR&P if you really must. These two elements are what in my opinion made the Alfasud for example such a so much more exciting prospect than anything else in its sector in its day.

That said, of course I prefer to drive the vRS for 95% of the time, and I'd rather hit something stationery in it 100% over a 'sud, but it's never quite made me grin as much for that 5%