Copper grease or not - on brakes?!

[mattvrestate]

The various VAG companies initially decreed that the entire abs module had to be replaced at a cost well in excess of £1,000 for the parts, whereas now there is an official repair kit which costs under £200...

From what I read in a variety of media (including national papers, not just the internet) people were getting goodwill payments but often only after protracted periods often including threats of legal action or contacting the media. It is strange that the "official" repair kit is identical to the dubious bodging of the backstreet metal bashers.

Following the "cheap fix" the car provided sterling service for more than 6 years and 70k miles.

The earlyer ABS units had and still have to be replaced as a full unit. This is still covered by Goodwill at £1000 ish paid by VW (VAG).

The later ones can be replaced by the £200 repair kit which is essentially the ABS unit without the control unit.

This is nothing like the bodged repairs we have seen done by back street bodgers (mechanics). Iv seen various pipes plummed into the ABS unit which bypass the valve which fail (mostly leaking breakfluid). Also one where they bypassed the whole ABS unit to avoid the ABS light which was going to fail the MOT

Bet it was cheap tho

[trundlenut]

tape over the bulb is cheaper though...

[Corni]

I don't really understand your comment, reading the full text of my posting would reveal that I was referring to coating the inner and outer areas that contact the hub and wheel, also, with a bit of common sense you might assume that I was, in reality, only applying a thin film of copaslip to both sides, in doing so stopping future corrosion in its tracks.

Sorry, I didn't mean to say that it happened to you. Just a general comment that it might not be good idea to apply between hub and disc as copper grease is quite thick stuff. On larger surface area it cant squeeze out and it might spread unevenly resulting disc to not run straight. This has happened to many when they fit new discs then they blame they're warped when in reality it is the grease between the two..

[rum4mo]

Sorry, I didn't mean to say that it happened to you. Just a general comment that it might not be good idea to apply between hub and disc as copper grease is quite thick stuff. On larger surface area it cant squeeze out and it might spread unevenly resulting disc to not run straight. This has happened to many when they fit new discs then they blame they're warped when in reality it is the grease between the two..

That's okay, the other normal problem is when the disc is replaced and the rusted up hub area has not been cleaned up - once again they think that it is warped!

[Golden]

I think you're being a little over-sensitive.

If you quote me out of context then I reserve the right to reply.

The reason for using anti-seize compounds like Copaslip is to exclude electrolytes which may cause corrosion so your argument is paradoxical.

Other than that, you're golden

Do you even know what Galvanic corrosion is?

The potential corrosion isn't between two parts but between the copper grease and the contact part :clap:

The earlyer ABS units had and still have to be replaced as a full unit. This is still covered by Goodwill at £1000 ish paid by VW (VAG).

The later ones can be replaced by the £200 repair kit which is essentially the ABS unit without the control unit.

This is nothing like the bodged repairs we have seen done by back street bodgers (mechanics). Iv seen various pipes plummed into the ABS unit which bypass the valve which fail (mostly leaking breakfluid). Also one where they bypassed the whole ABS unit to avoid the ABS light which was going to fail the MOT

Bet it was cheap tho

VAG only kicked in the goodwill payment after this became a potential Watchdog feature and PR disaster, you shouldn't mock people that had units repaired cheaply as VAG initially laughed them out the door.

As I said before IMO back street garages and stealerships can be as bad as each other but for different reasons.

In my experience 80%-90% of the motor trade are dodgey to some degree.

Both might charge you for parts you don't need, one might charge you for a part they broke taking it off while another may charge you for a part because ODB told them the part was duff only for them to find the multiplug was loose when they go to fit the new part.

As for this:-

Iv never had or know of any techy at my dealer that has had brakes come back squeeling etc.. but have heard alot of storys of cars going back 3-4 times to a garage down the road for brakes sqeel. Tbf alot of it is the parts used..non-gen pads can be noisy no matter what u do to them. But u get what u pay for

I know someone who recently got a complete refund from Audi on an R8 because after 6 months and tens of dealer visits to try and eliminate a brake squeal they couldn't do it

[sepulchrave]

The potential corrosion isn't between two parts but between the copper grease and the contact part :clap:

Why is that even relevant, you're simply arguing in a circular fashion now, the important point was lost long ago.

You're also starting to sound like you're running to google to back yourself up.

In my experience Copaslip is an excellent product with a variety of practical uses and I've personally used it for upwards of thirty years and never seen the phenomena you are 'theorising' about here.

As for your condescending nonsense about Galvanic corrosion, do me a favour sonny, you're an obvious fantasist.

[mattvrestate]

VAG only kicked in the goodwill payment after this became a potential Watchdog feature and PR disaster, you shouldn't mock people that had units repaired cheaply as VAG initially laughed them out the door.

I know someone who recently got a complete refund from Audi on an R8 because after 6 months and tens of dealer visits to try and eliminate a brake squeal they couldn't do it

For anyone who did pay the £1000 bill to have the ABS unit replaced before goodwill kicked in a quick phone call/ letter to VW customer service gets you all your money back.. at the time when they werent goodwill Mk5 golfs/ Tourans (the 2 VWs affected by the fault) were still well over £10k to buy used with high ish miliage.. if you are prepared to pay that amount for a car and dont take out a £200 VW warranty then in my opinion its your loss.. even with AA warrantys (one of the crappest warrantys you can get) ABS units were covered because its a part. Where warrantys get funny is when wiring repairs/ stripping + investigating is needed. Either way VW saw a common fault + took the very large bill. Alot of the time main dealers foot the bill for the sake of "customer satisfaction" which we are paid on and by default what we focus on alot.

Im pretty sure the R8 brake problem wasnt related to using Plasti-lube + not Copper slip lol..

We had a similar problem when i worked at Audi with a W12 A8.. he drove to germany alot on the Autobahns + complained of a brake judder when slowing from 140mph to 130mph!! After originally getting his warped front discs + pads replaced by us he came back after 6 months with the same problem. We ended up replacing both front complete arms (where the wheel bearings sit) complete with wheel bearings and a nother pair of front discs. This solved his problem.

Obviously we couldnt have road tested his car to 140mph to test the brakes after.. we did road test them to 70mph with no judder + they didnt start juddering again fir 6 mobths.. but as a main dealer we refunded his complete first set of discs + pads + replaced his arms etc for the price of parts only!! All for customer satisfaction. This is how dealers work now. Imo its bull#### but im not a manager lol.

Put it this way though if he had gone to billy down the road he would have paid for his 1st set of discs + pads (very expensive discs for a W12).. then when he brought the car back after 6 months he would have no comeback whatsoever.

Edited 29 May, 2013 by mattvrestate

[Huskoda]

mattvrsestate, as you're local, which VAG dealer do you work for, so I can come and get my ESP module fixed for free, as you claim, when it finally shows the light?

[mattvrestate]

mattvrsestate, as you're local, which VAG dealer do you work for, so I can come and get my ESP module fixed for free, as you claim, when it finally shows the light?

VW Wakefield

U can get anything for free at my place. All you have to do is kick up a fuss and refuse to pay for a part on YOUR car that is defective because its OUR fault YOUR car needs fixing !

Join the que with the rest of the tight fisted VW owners/ taxi drivers who frequent our work .

Edited 29 May, 2013 by mattvrestate

[Huskoda]

I only asked because as far as I was aware, Skoda are not fixing the ESP module for free. When one specific part fails so frequently its kind of hard to not question the manufacturer. I somehow don't think VW Wakey will want anything to do with a Skoda.

[mattvrestate]

U would be correct in thinking VW cant deal with Skoda Warranty Extended warranty or Goodwill claims.

[viewer]

Golden said, I don't think I've ever seen so many half truths, exaggerations and BS.

"Utter BS, a bolt holds two items together by pushing it into its elastic range, not by the coefficient of friction of the thread surfaces. Applying grease to wheel bolts compared with clean dry threads should make negligible difference to the overall torque figure."

Really? Then these people - who make the bolts - don't know what they're talking about?

http://www.zerofast.com/torque.htm

Here's the professional engineer's view stolen from another site (I take it you do have a PhD in engineering ?)

Wheel bolts should (generally) be installed dry.

The design intent of bolted fasteners is that they should develop clamping force. This means that the bolt is in tension, and the joint is placed in corresponding compression.

When you apply torque to a fastener, most of this effort is spent in overcoming the friction beneath the rotating head of the fastener, and the friction in the sliding threads. Only a little effort is actually expended in tensioning the fastener.

The relationship between the torque you apply and the tension you achieve is, therefore, strongly influenced by the condition of these sliding surfaces, and by greasing them, you will obtain much more tension in the fastener than was designed for.

This extra tension can be enough to strip the threads, to damage the fastener, or to damage the component being secured. If the joint has been well designed, the shank of the fastener will snap first, before thread stripping or component damage, but, not all bolted joints are well designed.

This dependence on friction to determine how torque tightening produces fastener tension is why torque tightening is quite a poor method of installing fasteners. Torque tightening is popular because it's quick and easy. Even with the best torque tools and highly trained fitters, the scatter in bolt tension between a population of bolts is quite wide. For more critical fasteners on cars, a torque plus angle specification is usually given which gives much more accurate tensioning, and which usually makes much more efficient use of the fastener material.

Incidentally, the joint face between the wheel and hub should also remain dry - this face is, effectively, a clutch face transmitting drive and braking torque between the hub and wheel. This torque should be transmitted by the friction, and not by shearing the bolts.

The bottom line is that all safety critical fasteners should be tightened by following the manufacturer's specification, with no ad-hoc modification.

Edited 29 May, 2013 by viewer

[TeflonTom]

Epic thead this.... going round in circles with the same pointless argument. It's amazing how many pedants frequent this site now...

bottom line is this, use copper slip, or don't use it, your choice.

[Golden]

Why is that even relevant, you're simply arguing in a circular fashion now, the important point was lost long ago.

You're also starting to sound like you're running to google to back yourself up.

In my experience Copaslip is an excellent product with a variety of practical uses and I've personally used it for upwards of thirty years and never seen the phenomena you are 'theorising' about here.

As for your condescending nonsense about Galvanic corrosion, do me a favour sonny, you're an obvious fantasist.

Had you bothered to read the thread properly you'd have seen my original comment was based on this post.

Copper based greases will cause corrosion if used between two different metals; not a problem with active brake parts.

To which I replied...

Copper grease can promote galvanic corrosion but only under certain specific conditions unlikely to occur in brake mechanisms.

I don't need to Google what I already know and unlike your ranting assertion I was not saying anything negative about copaslip.

If you're going to a baseless argument at least read the original text properly, otherwise it's just lazy.

[mattvrestate]

Just printed this straight from ELSA (VAGs user manual.. official sh... from VW).

Note the "Warning"

This is direct from VW ^^ not my words + i wont claim to know why this warning is given by them.. but im sure they have good reason to give this warning and a good reason why sometimes its a good idea to have back up from a major Manufacturer (a super efficient German manufacturer). Instead of relying solely on the advise of billy down the road and his tub full of copper slip

[Golden]

Golden said, I don't think I've ever seen so many half truths, exaggerations and BS.

"Utter BS, a bolt holds two items together by pushing it into its elastic range, not by the coefficient of friction of the thread surfaces. Applying grease to wheel bolts compared with clean dry threads should make negligible difference to the overall torque figure."

Really? Then these people - who make the bolts - don't know what they're talking about?

http://www.zerofast.com/torque.htm

Here's the professional engineer's view stolen from another site (I take it you do have a PhD in engineering ?)

Wheel bolts should (generally) be installed dry.

The design intent of bolted fasteners is that they should develop clamping force. This means that the bolt is in tension, and the joint is placed in corresponding compression.

When you apply torque to a fastener, most of this effort is spent in overcoming the friction beneath the rotating head of the fastener, and the friction in the sliding threads. Only a little effort is actually expended in tensioning the fastener.

The relationship between the torque you apply and the tension you achieve is, therefore, strongly influenced by the condition of these sliding surfaces, and by greasing them, you will obtain much more tension in the fastener than was designed for.

This extra tension can be enough to strip the threads, to damage the fastener, or to damage the component being secured. If the joint has been well designed, the shank of the fastener will snap first, before thread stripping or component damage, but, not all bolted joints are well designed.

This dependence on friction to determine how torque tightening produces fastener tension is why torque tightening is quite a poor method of installing fasteners. Torque tightening is popular because it's quick and easy. Even with the best torque tools and highly trained fitters, the scatter in bolt tension between a population of bolts is quite wide. For more critical fasteners on cars, a torque plus angle specification is usually given which gives much more accurate tensioning, and which usually makes much more efficient use of the fastener material.

Incidentally, the joint face between the wheel and hub should also remain dry - this face is, effectively, a clutch face transmitting drive and braking torque between the hub and wheel. This torque should be transmitted by the friction, and not by shearing the bolts.

The bottom line is that all safety critical fasteners should be tightened by following the manufacturer's specification, with no ad-hoc modification.

Firstly, well Googled.

Secondly, if you're going to get that specific you should know that unless otherwise stated most fasteners have a negligible ratio of wet/dry coefficient of friction to their yield point.

This is because most torque figures need to be well within the SWL of the fastner (excluding TTY bolts).

Edited 29 May, 2013 by Golden

[viewer]

Dear contributors,

This forum has a well deserved reputation for good manners and helpful posts. Opinions are invited, advice sought and given and experiences exchanged. For example, in this topic alone l note that poster Matty there has the best part of 1200 posts, Teflon Tom near 1400. Good postings, well made through time without insulting anyone. There is a species of forum hopper usually called a troll. Generally this person is pointlessly provoking or just plain rude.It is very easy to be drawn into their loathsome web thinking that their posts are intended to be helpful, whereas, in truth, they just enjoy destruction. Probably best to ignore them.

[rum4mo]

Right well, out of pure badness and a bit of off topic posting, I can tell you that the alloy wheels on my daughter's Ibiza SC, which I am looking after for a year, look like they are welded to the hubs/discs/drums, so, before I start using it for longer journeys, I will need to "get" these wheels off and after cleaning things up, use some of that much talked about brownish stuff - though in a sparing manner. As it stands at present, I'd reckon that a phone call to the AA would be the only way that a wheel could be changed when "out and about", a job for the weekend I think! (plus maybe some grey paint to restore the rear drum's "good looks")

Edited 29 May, 2013 by rum4mo

[Guest BigJase88]

Good stuff that copper grease!

Seen a few wheels requiring a mallet to get them unstuck! The wonders of this grease

[rum4mo]

Good stuff that copper grease!

Seen a few wheels requiring a mallet to get them unstuck! The wonders of this grease

I've always considered that the indication that you have applied (just) enough is the appearance of thin black streaks making their out from the inside of the alloys after a "good" run!

[ajs_vrs]

**** me pink is this still going on :p

[mogwye]

Yes Come on, put a stop to this Handbags at Dawn scenario, it's getting pathetic.

DB

[TeflonTom]

Matty there has the best part of 1200 posts, Teflon Tom near 1400.

1400? That should read 14,000

anyways, regardless of what vw say, I always put copperslip on the rear hubs to prevent the wheels from rotting onto the hubs, that is born through being stuck at the side of the road near Newcastle-emlyn one rainy Sunday with a flat tyre and not being able to remove the rear wheel. Well angry I was.