Ok so the alignment was checked today. The Front Toe settings were -0.05" and -0.04" (wheels pointing outwards). Which apparently explains some of the twitchy handling. The settings have been adjusted to +0.04" and 0.05" (wheels pointing inwards). The interesting thing was that if one of the road wheels was moved by hand you could observe the Toe reading changing on that wheel instantly, but there was at least 0.06 of movement before any movement was registered on the opposite wheel, indicating a degree of play in the system. 

 

Driving now initial impressions are that the car is a lot more stable and certainly less twitchy, however I can still feel vibration and a dead spot in the steering. Now guys I need to know if this degree of play in the steering is acceptable, or is this what is causing the problem?

 

Also noted was that rear left Toe reading was +0.12 which is also out. But the guy did not feel that it was worth the effort of realigning the rear axle for this. 

Edited 23 April, 201412 yr by Leonblue

If you have gone to the extent of having a geometry check done then why did you leave it with settings still out of spec?

You need to ensure that steer ahead and thrust angles are both zero, and the toe and camber settings are right in the middle of the tolerance band on all 4 corners, especially if you are trying to diagnose handling issues.

Were your camber and castor angles OK?

I take it they couldn't spot any faults other than the excessive play on one front wheel?

... if one of the road wheels was moved by hand you could observe the Toe reading changing on that wheel instantly, but there was at least 0.06 of movement before any movement was registered on the opposite wheel, indicating a degree of play in the system.

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I would worry about that.  Are you saying that if you held the tyre and moved the road wheel on one side, the alignment machine registered the movement immediately, but if you did the same thing on the other side, the machine did not?  I would want to establish exactly what this "play in the system" was - surely finding that out that was the whole point of the exercise?

I would also want everything set "spot-on", ideally exactly in the middle of the tolerance band if possible and certainly the same both sides, especially as this was an attempt to find and cure a mysterious, obscure issue with a "problem" car.  If the car was more-or-less OK, then simply adjusting it so that it was "more-or-less" correct would be acceptable.  But your car is not "OK" - surely you want the mystery solved, and you want it it sorted, and you want it sorted properly?

Didn't you mention that there was a bent drive shaft at one stage?  Did you find out how it got bent?  Did the car perhaps suffer a severe clout before you got it, which caused this?  If so, isn't there a possibility that something else (body shell / subframe / suspension arm) got slightly bent as well?  Remember my tale about the Mondeo suspension arm.

As has already been said, I'd want the back end lined up properly.  Until that is right, you'll never get the front adjusted correctly.  Why did the operator not bother to do this?  Was there something bent / distorted / misaligned, which prevented him from being able to achieve the correct adjustment?

 

Edited 24 April, 201412 yr by Stuarted

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[Thread hijack alert!]

Another victim!  I'm on my third BX, with nearly 200,000 miles on the clock.  Don't rate Citroens generally, but the BX had various wonderful features - cheap, huge internal space / compact external dimensions, gloriously comfortable, amazing economy for its period ... I love mine.

 

I had two BXs, a Dyane, a ZX and a blue thing that came out after the ZX but which was so characterless I've forgotten its name. I loved the BXs.... 

On a Hunter rig you line up each wheel to the centre line of the car, not relative to other wheels. It is a geometry check, not a 4 wheel alignment a la Kwik Fit.

You are correct though, everything needs to be absolutely spot on if you are trying to diagnose issues. Being able to move on front wheel without the movement transmitting through the rack to the other wheel is a major concern though, as that indicates play in a component that probably shouldn't be there.

Sent from my phone so please excuse brevity and spelling

To be honest i'm still non the wiser.

 

To start with the settings that were used were from the Octavia II and not the III as the machine did not appear to have the settings for my car. The assumption was made that the settings would be the same between the two models. I was not totally convinced but had to go with what we had available. The car does seem to be less twitchy now so I can only assume that those Toe settings are suitable for the Octy III. If anyone knows any different then please let me know.

 

The other parameters all showed as satisfactory apart from the rear LH Toe as already mentioned.

 

At this stage I am just looking for a definite fault in the car that should have been spotted by the dealers or independent inspection. I don't want to adjust something major like the rear axle or start stripping the car to pieces as this could jeopardise any chance of rejection / compensation.

 

As regards the play in the system, the operator was obviously concerned by this but, ultimately did not appear to be totally sure if there was meant to be a degree movement in the system with it being the newer electric rack. Apparently some cars are meant to have a degree of play. This is why I asked you guys the question i.e. is approx. 0.06" of play normal for this model or is this the proof I need that my car is indeed faulty? 

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I would worry about that.  Are you saying that if you held the tyre and moved the road wheel on one side, the alignment machine registered the movement immediately, but if you did the same thing on the other side, the machine did not?  I would want to establish exactly what this "play in the system" was - surely finding that out that was the whole point of the exercise?

I would also want everything set "spot-on", ideally exactly in the middle of the tolerance band if possible and certainly the same both sides, especially as this was an attempt to find and cure a mysterious, obscure issue with a "problem" car.  If the car was more-or-less OK, then simply adjusting it so that it was "more-or-less" correct would be acceptable.  But your car is not "OK" - surely you want the mystery solved, and you want it it sorted, and you want it sorted properly?

Didn't you mention that there was a bent drive shaft at one stage?  Did you find out how it got bent?  Did the car perhaps suffer a severe clout before you got it, which caused this?  If so, isn't there a possibility that something else (body shell / subframe / suspension arm) got slightly bent as well?  Remember my tale about the Mondeo suspension arm.

As has already been said, I'd want the back end lined up properly.  Until that is right, you'll never get the front adjusted correctly.  Why did the operator not bother to do this?  Was there something bent / distorted / misaligned, which prevented him from being able to achieve the correct adjustment?

 

If you move the RH wheel by hand, the RH Toe reading moved on the machine by at least 0.06" before any movement was registered on the LH wheel. Moving the LH wheel also had the same but opposite effect.

Adjusting the angles by using the references of O2 is not good. You should do this check at a Skoda dealer where they already have the program update for O3/MQB. Then you could say what was the difference. The producer is not putting everything straight...and in the program for steering adjust they put 0 in the meaning of reference not as let's say perfect parallel. From my point of view I should not adjust ti without having the correct program as reference.

Go and check this on a Dealer, at your demand.

Adjusting the angles by using the references of O2 is not good. You should do this check at a Skoda dealer where they already have the program update for O3/MQB. Then you could say what was the difference. The producer is not putting everything straight...and in the program for steering adjust they put 0 in the meaning of reference not as let's say perfect parallel. From my point of view I should not adjust ti without having the correct program as reference.

Go and check this on a Dealer, at your demand.

Do you know a dealer with the equipment to do a full geometry check and adjustments?

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Do you know a dealer with the equipment to do a full geometry check and adjustments?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

I don't know any main dealers that do, and that's not just skoda.....

I know of a Mazda main dealer with top-notch alignment equipment.  And I have seen their experienced and generally competent senior workshop foreman make a not-terribly-good job of using it to align a friends MX-5 because the foreman was not an expert in setting wheel alignment.

So in my opinion, what matter more is the operator's skill, training and dedication rather than whether the workshop is part of an appropriate main dealer's business.

Why not contact Tony bones at WIM and ask if he has details of the correct settings for your MkIII?  If he doesn't, all that will cost you is a 'phone call.  If he has, then you can decide whether to take matters further - perhaps by visiting his workshop - and you will also be able to form your own opinion about the competence of the workshop you have just used.

After all, you are not primarily trying just to get your car aligned more-or-less correctly.  You are trying t find out whether there is an inherent fault with your car, and/or whether it has something which is bent / twisted / distorted / loose / damaged / broken / misaligned.  If your car can be adjusted so that it is spot-on to the correct (mkIII) settings, then - good.  But if it cannot be adjusted correctly, despite the skill and best efforts of an experienced and dedicated alignment specialist, then there is definitely (and demonstrably) something wrong with it and you can justifiably continue your claim against the garage which sold you the car.

Good luck and please keep us posted! 

 

Edited 25 April, 201412 yr by Stuarted

IIRC when there is some proper alignment gear at a VAG dealer in a particular dealer, it was to be found inside the door with 4 rings above it (remember something from the Fabia II forum when they were discussing Monte Carlo versions that pull to one side when wearing Dunlops).  That means they should have the MQB settings, even if it's not exactly the same body.

I know of a Mazda main dealer with top-notch alignment equipment.  And I have seen their experienced and generally competent senior workshop foreman make a not-terribly-good job of using it to align a friends MX-5 because the foreman was not an expert in setting wheel alignment.

So in my opinion, what matter more is the operator's skill, training and dedication rather than whether the workshop is part of an appropriate main dealer's business.

Why not contact Tony bones at WIM and ask if he has details of the correct settings for your MkIII?  If he doesn't, all that will cost you is a 'phone call.  If he has, then you can decide whether to take matters further - perhaps by visiting his workshop - and you will also be able to form your own opinion about the competence of the workshop you have just used.

After all, you are not primarily trying just to get your car aligned more-or-less correctly.  You are trying t find out whether there is an inherent fault with your car, and/or whether it has something which is bent / twisted / distorted / loose / damaged / broken / misaligned.  If your car can be adjusted so that it is spot-on to the correct (mkIII) settings, then - good.  But if it cannot be adjusted correctly, despite the skill and best efforts of an experienced and dedicated alignment specialist, then there is definitely (and demonstrably) something wrong with it and you can justifiably continue your claim against the garage which sold you the car.

Good luck and please keep us posted! 

 

Thanks Stuart, took your advice and phoned WIM today. Tony was not available but one of the other guys was extremely helpful. The settings that were used for my car were correct as it happens. He also confirmed that the small amount of play is nothing worth worrying about, although I may still get a dealer to give it another once over to confirm everything is OK. Why none of this was ever checked is beyond me.

Geometry check is not part of the PDI process, and they leave the factory 'about right' in my experience of a decade of working at main dealers. If it drives in a straight line as part of the PDI it will get left alone.

Then it is down to the owner to report any pulling to one side, drift or uneven tyre wear under the warranty process.

Sent from my phone so please excuse brevity and spelling

IIRC when there is some proper alignment gear at a VAG dealer in a particular dealer, it was to be found inside the door with 4 rings above it (remember something from the Fabia II forum when they were discussing Monte Carlo versions that pull to one side when wearing Dunlops). That means they should have the MQB settings, even if it's not exactly the same body.

The problem on the fabias is crappy Dunlops, not alignment. Had this from the dealer when I had a fabia loaner that pulled to one side. Mentioned it to them and they said they were waiting for Skoda to authorise 4 tyres for it under warranty as the geometry had been checked and was now spot on. Basically, every fabia with crappy tyres was the same from new and the fix was to put some decent tyres on it. The loaner I had was below 200 miles on the clock.

Sent from my phone so please excuse brevity and spelling

The problem on the fabias is crappy Dunlops, not alignment. Had this from the dealer when I had a fabia loaner that pulled to one side. Mentioned it to them and they said they were waiting for Skoda to authorise 4 tyres for it under warranty as the geometry had been checked and was now spot on. Basically, every fabia with crappy tyres was the same from new and the fix was to put some decent tyres on it. The loaner I had was below 200 miles on the clock.

Sent from my phone so please excuse brevity and spelling

The Fabia Monte Carlo I had as a loaner was sound, but I can't remember what tyres were fitted although they weren't Dunlops. Mine are though!!

My car has Dunlop Sport Maxx RT fitted and they are just fine, but I believe they are a new range of tyre within the last couple of years so probably not the same tyre that caused the problem on the Fabia.

The problem on the fabias is crappy Dunlops, not alignment. Had this from the dealer when I had a fabia loaner that pulled to one side. Mentioned it to them and they said they were waiting for Skoda to authorise 4 tyres for it under warranty as the geometry had been checked and was now spot on. Basically, every fabia with crappy tyres was the same from new and the fix was to put some decent tyres on it. The loaner I had was below 200 miles on the clock.

Sent from my phone so please excuse brevity and spelling

Totally agree - but this was in the early days before Skoda acknowledged a problem with the Dunlops and they were straw-grasping at alignment...

As Matt Pez have Sport Maxx RT on mine too (albeit on the 17" Terons) and no problems.

I think the electric rack lacks feel (the variable mode settings dont really help much but prefer the weighting in Sport over Normal); it also does have a noticeable dead spot around dead ahead...its tinybin reality put can be easily picked up at low speeds (where the power steering assistance is greater).

The key thing is for what it is (verging on a Passat size car) its really light; great for performance and economy but affects general stability and certainly in wet/windy weather the car can at times feel a little unsettled as a result.

For example driving home in driving rain last night I hit a small patch of standing water whilst accelerating in 3rd (150 TDi) and the front tyres just lit up, also ive noticed the front end bounces if ever significant wheelspin occurs in dryer conditions. My 1420kg Mk2 vRS TDi from recollection exhibited none of these things and definitely felt more planted.

Yep - it was specifically the Fabia's like the Monte Carlo with whatever Dunlop tyres they were fitting to them. I reckon Skoda got a large batch of Dunlop tyres for those which caused the issue. The dealer was 100% that is was the tyres causing the issue, not alignment. Nothing to do with Leonblue's issue though!

Agree with Pipsyp regarding inclement weather, mine blows all over the place in strong wind when only me in the car but not so bad with the full family on board. Also, noticed that mpg very sensitive to weather, drops at least 5mpg even in moderate rain.

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Just checked, mine are actually Dunlop Sport Maxx GT, not RT, must be cos running on 18s.

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Dunlop's standard Sport Maxx is the tyre fitted to the Fabia MC which has caused issues.

 

Our MC had them and it pulled left from day one and also on 15" winters which we fitted a couple of days after collection; so not just a tyre issue in our case. Three tracking attempts, plus lots of wheel swapping about and eventually a new set of Pirelli pzero nero and its just about right.

 

Apart from the left pull the Dunlops seemed not a bad tyre but the Pirelli are even better; mind if we ever wear them out then Uniroyal's beckon.

 

 

TP

My car is also octy 3 1.4tsi dsg

With 16 inch continental tyres and the same behavior in wind as many of you reported

The car just feels very light and playes badly in the wind :(

Another thing

The front glass is so thin and I think not laminated

I even was looking at a friends hyundai elantra glass and found it about 3 layers at least and much thicker than ours :(