Dog issue - your thoughts

[Madrunner]

Afternoon mukkas.

I'd like to canvas opinion on some recent events.

We have 2 cairn terriers, beautifully tempered dogs, never allowed off leads when walking. Rabbit holes and all that.

Between them them they have been attacked by dogs on 5 seperate occasions. 3 of them German Shepard, a staffie and Sunday a terrier cross.

Not one of those dogs was on a lead and apparently has never done it before.

Whilst walking the mutts Sunday, out of nowhere appears said terrier cross. Wife picks up dog no 1 and the terrier jumped up, grabbed hold of the dog - result trip to the vets, stitched, nasty bruising and a large Sunday night bill.

We gave the bill to the dog owner which ended up in a poo fight this morning.

Apparently it takes 2 dogs to fight (no fight, Charlie was on lead off the ground) and as he didn't see it won't pay the bill.

Our poor dogs go mental at certain types of dogs due to these attacks. We've taken them to socialisation classes to get on top of it but we are back to square one again.

Am I right in my attitude towards the latest owner ?

Should have his dog on a lead if it can't be directly controlled around other dogs ?

I was ready to rip his head off this morning.

[Auric Goldfinger]

In form the police or RSPCA  the dog that attacked your dog may attack a child, Dangerous if you ask me.

[Madrunner]

Cheers AG - that's exactly what I put forward this morning - he'd never do that was the response.

The 3rd attack put me in hospital in getting the dog off our terrier.

[Auric Goldfinger]

 he'd never do that was the response.

EErrrrrrrrrr, he obviously  did !!!!

 

EErrrrrrrrrr, he obviously  did !!!!..Tell the Police/RSPCA pronto, if it attacks a child at least you've done your bit to prevent it.

[mender]

Agree with that.

 

In my experience, many dogs are simply a damned nuisance and if incidents aren't reported, it will keep happening as it's NEVER their dog that causes the problem.

[Harvey1978]

I hate reading things like this, some people just shouldn't be allowed to own dogs, Did you read this thread? Thread contains graphic images.

 

I own a boarder collie, she was attacked by a boxer dog when she was about 6 months old, during the attack all the owner did from a distance was yell come here you f***ing ©**t at his dog, my dog now has issue with any dog of equal or larger size than her, but rather than shy away she will have a go at them if they attempt to have a sniff at her, so I have to plan my walks carefully, I don't want to keep her on the lead because all she wants to do is chase her ball and 9 times out of 10 when an incident does occur the other dogs owner is nowhere in sight.

[Madrunner]

You guys are making me feel much better and that I'm not in the minority or wrong here.

One comment this morning "I've lived in this village all my life and never had an issue before"....what a retarded comment.

That was moody reading.....

[kit]

Absolutley tell the police and and the RSPCA...its just not on and you shouldnt feel as if you are in the minority!! My staffie was attacked twice by two different jack russells on two different occasions, both lived at houses that they were allowed to roam outside off the lead. The first was dealt with by me turning up at the door with a bleeding staffie and a witness and telling them the they WILL pay the vet costs, which they did (think one look at my 1000 yard military stare convinced them it was for the best). The second involved the Gards (Police) who told the owner that  they WILL be paying the costs as it wasnt the first attack their dog had carried out and the that they would pursue charges againt them and remove the dog!! Which they did.

 

kit

[crickleymal]

I suppose the only solution is to carry a camera with you at all times. Which you shouldn't have to do!

Our youngest lad was scared spitless by a German Shepherd whose owner allowed it to run off the lead along the alleyway where parents took their kids to school. Imagine a dog as tall as you are barking and growling in your face. The police went to see its owner but of course in the house it was well behaved wasn't it. The owner does keep it on a lead now though so some good has come of it.

[Howzer]

I think you are absolutely right in your actions. I don't know what the law says where you live but in Sweden every dog owner has a strict responsibility for what his dog does! You can't talk your way out of it. The problem is of course if there aren't any witnesses but in your case it should be easy to show to the police that your dog was damaged by the other dog but the other dog is fine. Personally I wouldn't hesitate reporting an incidence like this to the police!

[meta55b]

100% they should be paying any damages or cost, regardless if it's the first time or not. One point on here is getting me a bit confused, as for calling the police that bit i understand, but for the rspca i dont get it. they have no real powers or power of enforcement and when they do get warrants to remove an animal they still need the police to enforce it. Living in scotland we dont have the rspca here but another identical group that do exactly the same job.

[BJM]

OK, I'm getting ready to be flamed!!!!!

 

I find it interesting that your dogs have been attacked 5 times by other dogs, all of which were off the lead whilst yours were on leads.

 

A problem with current attitudes to the need to constantly have dogs on leads (a social cause celebre atm and one which is being reinforced by the typical knee-jerk comments) is an increase in dog lead reaction (Google it for a further explanation)

Most dogs detest being on a lead and tend to react negatively whilst on one, partly from fear of attack, and an inability to defend themselves if they ARE attacked.

Unrestrained they have the ability to avoid unwanted contact, or to carry it out in canine terms meaning slow careful approach, walking in circles, avoiding face to face contact and so on.

By forcing them to approach each other on our terms i.e. face to face on a path or pavement without the ability to retreat or move away we are forcing them into what in canine terms is an aggressive position.

Unlike us, dogs mainly communicate non-verbally, and we generally have no idea what signals or messages they are broadcasting.

This lead reaction / aggression is almost the equivalent of us shouting at someone we are not sure of, approaching us down a narrow alley,  to "f***ing clear off, or I'll f***ing have you."

 

What has happened is that your dogs have never been socialised to other dogs in a natural way from an early age, and are now conditioned to this behaviour.

 

To blame other dogs and owners is the easy way, and sadly one that the police, courts and even the RSPCA have fallen in with, when it is sometimes (often?) the "fault" of the dog / owner of the dog on the lead rather than with the "out-of-control" free roaming dog.

 

If you want to see dogs behaving naturally towards each other, the best place is to go on a shoot with a number of trained gundogs. These animals have been trained to a high degree, but more relevantly will have been socialised from an early age to strangers, both human and canine, and after the initial meet, greet and sniff routine just get on with their job.

I've never seen a dog fight whilst shooting, but then again any dog with that propensity would be removed and shortly afterwards probably destroyed.

 

PLEASE NOTE - I AM NOT SUGGESTING THAT YOU OR ANYONE ARE DELIBERATELY RAISING YOUR PETS IN AN UNSATISFACTORY OR NEGLECTFUL MANNER,

RATHER THAT YOU TRY TO LOOK AT THESE EVENTS FROM A DOGS PERSPECTIVE AND NOT TO SIMPLY APPLY HUMAN TRAITS AND REACTIONS TO THEM.

THEY ARE ANIMALS NOT CHILDREN AND SHOULD BE REGARDED AND TREATED AS SUCH.

[greenstripe]

I  also have two cairn terriers -great little dogs and I hope yours has a swift recovery.

 

As far as I'm aware the Police rarely bother to take any action regarding dog on dog attacks other than maybe to have a word, they won't do anything of any gravity, however if they attack a human then it is a very different story. The way I understand it is that if your wife had picked up your dog and was holding it, then the dog attacked her to get to yours. Perusing from this angle is far more likely to get a result out of the Police.

 

Here is the current legislation:

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/65/section/3

 

Dogs that are inclined to attack other dogs should definitely be on a lead in public spaces.

[Madrunner]

Thanks for all your comments guys.

BJM - you have echoed exactly what has been said to us at the socialisation sessions.

Unfortunately our mutts are not or never will be working dogs so will never get that level of interaction, which is why we are always cautious of other dogs because 9 times out of 10 there is no control and a large amount of aggression shown. Something terriers will always react to.

That's why we took them to these controlled, off the lead sessions which definitely helped but then another event like this just sends you back to step 1.

By the way 2 of the attacks we've simply had to pick the dog up to avoid it being savaged - if we hadn't the German Shepard would have shaken it to death.

[Madrunner]

Cheers GS - cairns are a fantastic breed. Have me in fits of laughter most days with their antics !!!!!! More stubborn than the wife lol lol

Charlie's on the mend, bit sore from the bruising but the wounds healing nicely and not overly bothering him. Luckily he is the hardier of the 2 !

Thanks for the wishes, much appreciated !

[keystonedriving]

The other people it might be worth contacting are the local dog wardens.  It is possible that they will be aware of the dogs in question from previous incidents and may be collating the information.  If any action is to be taken it will be by them rather than the police, who are simply not interested unless a person has suffered harm.

 

It does depend on the local authority, our local wardens are very good but in some areas the reverse s true.

 

Having just rechecked your location my recommendation is probably a complete waste of time.  Dorset dog wardens seem to have an exceptionally low reputation.

[greenstripe]

BJM -You do make some good points about dog psychology and interactions, however you are making a very big assumption that one could walk about expecting every dog they meet to have be correctly socialized and that is clearly not the case. Some sad and pathetic people are even proud of their dogs attacking other dogs and people. 

 

Gun dogs also have a very particular nature in that they are bred to be biddable and are all of a similar size. I can imagine that if a dog at one of your shoots tried to attack a person it would probably get shot there and then.

 

Terriers were bred to act on their own initiative and as such have a very independent streak, of my two, I have one that has problems with being aggressive on the lead with strange dogs and is generally better making his introductions off lead. As a rule they are very sociable and will run up to people and other dogs to say hello, there are times when this is clearly not appropriate, so they go on the lead. Cairns are small dogs and no match for the bigger breeds.

[greatdane]

we have 2 greatdanes and they are always on lead and have been bitten by dogs off lead many times,,,,,we keep them off lead but as soon as we see other dogs or people we put them back on you dont want 100kg hitting you full on.

we have had more arguments saying its your bloody big dog.............but its theres who start it........

I would tell the police at first and try and get a picture of the owner and dogs

people are that slack they think the dogmatic round there mouth is a bloody muzzle

I now take a large stick disguised as a baseball bat,,,,you never know when it will come in handy

Edited 2 October, 2013 by greatdane

[vindaloo]

Afternoon mukkas.

I'd like to canvas opinion on some recent events.

We have 2 cairn terriers, beautifully tempered dogs, never allowed off leads when walking. Rabbit holes and all that.

Between them them they have been attacked by dogs on 5 seperate occasions. 3 of them German Shepard, a staffie and Sunday a terrier cross.

Not one of those dogs was on a lead and apparently has never done it before.

Whilst walking the mutts Sunday, out of nowhere appears said terrier cross. Wife picks up dog no 1 and the terrier jumped up, grabbed hold of the dog - result trip to the vets, stitched, nasty bruising and a large Sunday night bill.

We gave the bill to the dog owner which ended up in a poo fight this morning.

Apparently it takes 2 dogs to fight (no fight, Charlie was on lead off the ground) and as he didn't see it won't pay the bill.

Our poor dogs go mental at certain types of dogs due to these attacks. We've taken them to socialisation classes to get on top of it but we are back to square one again.

Am I right in my attitude towards the latest owner ?

Should have his dog on a lead if it can't be directly controlled around other dogs ?

I was ready to rip his head off this morning.

 

Pepper spray the fecker... And if his dog does it again, pepper spray that too!

[Madrunner]

Lol quality !!!!!!

[VWD]

like greenstripe ,I am a Cairn owner on  cairn  no2. First one had problems with Staffs ,possibly due to this. I don't know as he was a rescue. On one occasion he was attacked by a Staff which had been reported for severely damaging a Westie .Owner had been warned more than once ,but it continued. I reported it to police who attended his property .The attack was denied as dog on dog through the fence, rather than Staff over fence to attack mine. However ,the owner rented his property from LA, so I contacted the Housing dept .Last seen the dog was on a lead.

Dog wardens - if like ours , toothless.

That said -dog on dog is not viewed highly in police eyes ,so I now get in the way . They would defend us, so why not the other way round, and if I get a nip from the attacking dog, I'll have a hospital visit to get the evidence to present a case of dangerous dog. I also now carry a walking stick , but I now use a park where there's very little chance of meeting an anti social dog. As for being small dogs - they are ,but no one has told them that and even if someone did- they wouldn't believe it . I've seen one take down a GS and heard of another kill a great Dane. But as I always say -when dogs get nasty ( and there's nothing nastier than a Cairn in fight mode) ,the only person that wins is the vet . Greenstripe has two lovely cairns, one of which can be funny with strange dogs, but I've always found cairns get on better off the lead ,when they can get into a Cairn's way of showing pecking order ( or should that be pee ing order) by a pee off .

My only advice , from last dog ,is to persevere and let Charlie  meet a mix of smaller dogs of the softer ,non threating type. the problem with some dogs is that they give off threating signs ( something we may miss, but not Cairn), and Cairn goes on offensive mode. Other dog takes that as a threat and attacks. On lead, your dog feels it has no room for manoever if attacked ,and may get extra defensive.

Please don't feel it's your fault , as I & GS hear on another site of this happening. As I said-I now carry a walking stick , but use a park where even the biggest are under control ,and Staffs owners will put their dogs on lead if necessary . Most times it isn't necessary as their dogs are socialised pets, not nasty thugs.

[Madrunner]

Thanks VWD - a great read of your post.

Kelly did exactly that today - we have a great friend in the village with a soppy old retriever - let Charlie off the lead in the field - had a ball apparently !

Cairn no 2 was having his usual wee off !!!!!

[VWD]

Nice to know. Cairns are great little ( and of the ones I've had at 11.5kg /9.5kg) not so little. My last one was massive ,and had two pet hates- pups, who he might tolerate if they behaved nice, and Staffs he could not abide. He was attacked by a nasty Staff one day and slipped his collar. One minute he was head to head with the Staff ,looking for a chance to hit the jugular, next minute he was at the rear ,just missing Staffs meat and two veg. At this point I grabed my eight year old dog and put him in car ,before he did nasties to Staff. It was obvious that he was too fast for the Staff and I might be facing vet bills for the serious damage a Cairn could do .Present little "Lady " ( it's a she .but not a lady ,has anyone heard of a lady cairn), woos dogs. her tally to date is a lot of Labs,one besoted Rottie, and a Dobie she plays with. The Rottie plays with her on meets, but he's like a hubby on honeymoon - very gentle. He's a product of a lovely owner. We need more big dog owners like this . 

[Volvomeg]

My parents doberman yes doberman was attacked by a staffy that was off the lead and bitten in the neck and the owner just stood there and didn't do anything,

 

My dads quick thinking and size 10 steel toe cap to the staffys neck made it release but it still cost a fortune in vets bills,

 

My dad also witnessed a old blokes little terrier been attacked by another staffy a couple of weeks ago and the owner did nothing but the attack was over by time he got to them but the bloke got the *******ing of his life off my dad, unfortunatly the old bloke had walked away but my dad felt really sorry for him hence why he had a word with the bloke with the staffy

[mender]

Having had so many bad experiences of dogs throughout my life, my experience is that ANY dog can flip and then that dog owner will say

 

"no, not my dog-he wouldn't do THAT"

"oh, he's never done that before, what did you do?"

"there is NO WAY my dog would do that"

"he was only being friendly, you should know how to deal with dogs"

 

I've never known a dog owner to take responsibility for anything their dog does; biting, scratching, fouling, fleas, the endless dog hairs, property damage, jumping up and damaging clothes or car paintwork-it's as if owning one makes them accept this stuff as part of the deal of having a dog and so everyone else is expected to accept it too.

It's NEVER the dog's fault-something must have set them off, upset them, looked at them the wrong way....etc

 

Flamers can flame but it comes from a lifetime of real experience of living it.

Those with nice dogs probably will not understand the mindset.