Those of us that are awaiting the keys for our new octy's will no doubt have noticed SHARK picking up a vRS TDI for some remap magic and general mucking about.

 

This thread is both a bit of fun in what we think they will come up with and cost, and also serious as I've just realised they are just around the corner from my new digs. 

 

Me? I'm thinking a stock remap to 205-ish with a drop in MPG to mid 40's..... sound reasonable? 

Nah, on cruise I'd expect better mpg from a shark performance remap. I'd also add a further 5-10bhp to that figure Then a bigger turbo...

I always wondered how tuners claimed more BHP and more economy, but everything I've ever done to make my ascona faster - tuning, custom manifolds, the lot, has only made it faster by being able to use more fuel! 

 

Coming from petrol for life, I do find it hard to believe that you can have both! But as long as it does 50 on a run, more power sounds great. 

 

Watching their new acquisition with interest! 

Very interested in a modest increase to give 6th gear the urge, so many now are high geared to get better economy co2.

Wish list is try before you buy, 210bhp, warranty -no quibble, £300, Removable for service or map in sport mode only. Count me in.

£300!!! You wish!

 

I agree about the map in Sport mode though.

£300!!! You wish!

 

I agree about the map in Sport mode though.

 

£300 sounds about right...... Mark at ZnF tuning *wrote* the original ECU maps for MG Rover at longbridge for the K-Series petrol engines post-2000. Later he setup ZnF, and remaps for his customers engines (tweaked for each car, so would take about 60-90min) maxed out at £245 for the 1.8 VVC, . And that is a legit company (no cash backhanders), subsequent remaps (say you make major changes) were discounted.

 

Anything else above that (that doesnt include new hardware, so a simple re-flash of the existing ECU) is verging on taking the ****. paying for R'n'D / development time is all well and good, but economies of scale apply here - There are a heck of a lot more Skoda 2.0 TDi's than MG TF's / F's to which the map can be applied.

Edited 6 November, 201312 yr by sniperpenguin

ill be following this too, as I'm hoping Ben is going to sort some decent suspension mods, and maybe an exhaust 

£300 sounds about right...... Mark at ZnF tuning *wrote* the original ECU maps for MG Rover at longbridge for the K-Series petrol engines post-2000. Later he setup ZnF, and remaps for his customers engines (tweaked for each car, so would take about 60-90min) maxed out at £245 for the 1.8 VVC, . And that is a legit company (no cash backhanders), subsequent remaps (say you make major changes) were discounted.

Anything else above that (that doesnt include new hardware, so a simple re-flash of the existing ECU) is verging on taking the ****. paying for R'n'D / development time is all well and good, but economies of scale apply here - There are a heck of a lot more Skoda 2.0 TDi's than MG TF's / F's to which the map can be applied.

Have you looked at the price for a CR170 remap? - £499

Not sure why you expect it to be 40% cheaper?

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

Have you looked at the price for a CR170 remap? - £499

Not sure why you expect it to be 40% cheaper?

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

 

Because it doesnt state on the website what is involved in each remap for each model of car beyond a BHP increase. (Website is quite bare).

 

For £499 I would be expecting before / after calibrated dyno runs with output maps printed out.... Otherwise those are "London Rent" prices TBH. (No offense)

Its a stage 1 remap, so normally the same fits all. I would expect dyno runs to cost extra, they normally do, unless Ben does some kind of promo.

 

Seeing as the ECUs are encrypted, and at a guess will need to be removed to be remapped, there is a fair amount of work above the old flash by the OBD port method.

Its a stage 1 remap, so normally the same fits all. I would expect dyno runs to cost extra, they normally do, unless Ben does some kind of promo.

 

Seeing as the ECUs are encrypted, and at a guess will need to be removed to be remapped, there is a fair amount of work above the old flash by the OBD port method.

 

That could explain it then (please dont see me as hostile - Just being honest  ) - The site did mention that a lot of remaps could be done without the bonnet being lifted (so a plug-in and reprogram), so you can see why I became curious!

 

I checked the other CR170 cars (Leon FR, VW etc) and the price / performance gains were all identical (499 / 205bhp) which suggests a generic stage 1 engine remap and greater economies of scale applying...

 

Again, no hostility towards SHARK here guys (before I get lynched  ) ..... Just trying to see where the extra cost comes from compared to the £245 remap cost on my previous car!

They are only round the corner from you as well, so very handy :-)

Mind the guys that they also want to earn a bit!

Warranty, development (not just copy and paste), service to the client.

This all takes time and time costs money.

The newer VAG cars will probably have to be tuned by a box. This makes things more expensive ;-)

I checked the other CR170 cars (Leon FR, VW etc) and the price / performance gains were all identical (499 / 205bhp) which suggests a generic stage 1 engine remap and greater economies of scale applying...

 

Yes, with the 170 making 205bhp you'd have to expect the 184 to make around 215 or so plus the usual extra shove of torque.

 

Remaps are not that cheap now.  But then that's how business works.  It's normal.

When you are new to the market people use you because you are cheaper.

When you are established people pay for the quality and customer service.  Overheads are higher.

Our very own speculation thread! I am flattered!

 

Well, there are some plans on the table for the car... keep watching as we're hoping to have a lot of things done prior to the Autosport show this coming January, so watch this space.

 

As for the pricing discussion, I know it's sometimes difficult for customers/potential customers to understand what actually goes into the development of a map. The bit that's seen by the customer is the easy bit, what's not seen are the overheads, the cost of the tools, the development time etc. There are lots of different versions and variations of the maps, they might give the same figures across a range of engines but that doesn't mean the maps themselves are the same. Bare website comments taken on board though, and a new one is in the wings which I promise will be a lot smoother and more informative

Our very own speculation thread! I am flattered!

 

Well, there are some plans on the table for the car... keep watching as we're hoping to have a lot of things done prior to the Autosport show this coming January, so watch this space.

 

As for the pricing discussion, I know it's sometimes difficult for customers/potential customers to understand what actually goes into the development of a map. The bit that's seen by the customer is the easy bit, what's not seen are the overheads, the cost of the tools, the development time etc. There are lots of different versions and variations of the maps, they might give the same figures across a range of engines but that doesn't mean the maps themselves are the same. Bare website comments taken on board though, and a new one is in the wings which I promise will be a lot smoother and more informative

 

Thanks for the reply guys - As I said, I hope my comments were not taken as hostile especially as I am around the corner! (Happy to bring around Coffee & Biscuits and pick your brains lol  )

 

The comments about the bare site were down to effectively "what do I get for the cash" questions. As the info is bare, the message came across that they were generic maps. Would you be so kind as to state how long it takes to remap an octavia (roughly), assuming you already have a ready-built map?

 

As a point of reference, this is my usual tuner (Been into K-Series cars 10yrs+, still keeping my MGTF for RWD fun) - http://www.zandf-tuning.co.uk/ (no need to delete, they only do caterham and K-Series so no business lost to Briskoda sponsors! SHARK dont do K-Series, at least not according to the website). He has a *massive* rep in the MG/Rover community, and as mentioned before wrote the original maps for the MEMS3 ECU's on those engines, so isnt a cheap startup.

 

(Oh, I know the BHP increases are minor.... remaps in that community tend to be about power delivery and rev limiters etc)

As for the pricing discussion, I know it's sometimes difficult for customers/potential customers to understand what actually goes into the development of a map. The bit that's seen by the customer is the easy bit, what's not seen are the overheads, the cost of the tools, the development time etc.

 

I can relate to this; I develop web portals for the company I work for.

 

Everyone tells me how great they are, how easy they are to use, what a genius I am.........what they don't see are the 9p.m finishes because I'm banging my head against a brick wall not being able to see why my SQL code isn't doing what I think it should be.  Or why my ASP.net code works under IE9 and Firefox but not under IE10 and Chrome.

 

I could go on........but it's true to say that there's a lot going on under the hood before you get to see the end result.

The comments about the bare site were down to effectively "what do I get for the cash" questions. As the info is bare, the message came across that they were generic maps.

What is "generic"? Generic to me means someone turning up values in a map who hasn't even seen the car being worked on. It's means £50 off eBay. It means undeveloped and often untested. It means different things to different people but given how maps are generally categorised as "custom" or "generic" and there are absolutely terrible examples of both in the marketplace, I think it's a bit of a misnomer.

Would you be so kind as to state how long it takes to remap an octavia (roughly), assuming you already have a ready-built map?

At the moment, the Octavia III vRS can't be done, but if you want to take the Octavia 2 vRS CR170 then it's about 3-4 hours.

As a point of reference, this is my usual tuner (Been into K-Series cars 10yrs+, still keeping my MGTF for RWD fun) - http://www.zandf-tuning.co.uk/ (no need to delete, they only do caterham and K-Series so no business lost to Briskoda sponsors! SHARK dont do K-Series, at least not according to the website). He has a *massive* rep in the MG/Rover community, and as mentioned before wrote the original maps for the MEMS3 ECU's on those engines, so isnt a cheap startup.

I'm very interested to hear this, my experience of OE level calibration is different, with very large teams dealing with specific areas of a calibration project, which eventually comes together and compiled into what we in the aftermarket would call the "map". I'm surprised to hear that one person was responsible for writing the maps in their entirety, but MG Rover hasn't even been on my radar apart from the odd DDE4.0 which is Bosch EDC15 as used in the BMW.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The bottom line is all your average punter sees is you shove a USB cable into a port on their car and ten minutes later say "there you go Sir/Madam, that'll be £350".

 

They have *****zero***** concept of what is going on between that USB cable and their £25k car's engine management system.

Edited 6 November, 201312 yr by JuanCarr

Lol I was looking at ZnF the other day. Fancy seeing them mentioned here.

It's interesting to read people's views. Not having a go by the way.

Something to think about. It's easy to pay £10k on ecu hardware. Then you pay annual subscription charge. They you pay a few grand for editing software. Then you pay annual subscription for editing software. Then you have to learn the ecu and find the relevant maps. They don't display themselves as pretty 3d screen Then you have to find the maps for all the different hardware and software versions of the same ecu. Then you can start developing the map. Then a new model comes out with a new ecu and you start all over again :(

That's assuming you don't have to pay wages, insurance, rent, utilities, websites...

The guy at ZnF I'm guessing would have had all his learning, tools paid by Rover. Plus as the ecu's arnt being updated he won't have to think about up to date hardware and software.

Anyway Ben I'm looking forward to the cars development

Lol I was looking at ZnF the other day. Fancy seeing them mentioned here.

 

I trust you didn't visit their website?

 

Jesus, what a bucketfull of WTF is that?  Powerpoint-esque slides zooming in and out.......1997 or what?

 

ZNF?  Employ some grown ups to design your website?  I'd offer to do it but my rates are obviously well above what you're paying.

 

But I wish you well.

I did. Thought it had good information on there. Now follow them on Facebook

Any this isn't a rover forum

The bottom line is all your average punter sees is you shove a USB cable into a port on their car and ten minutes later say "there you go Sir/Madam, that'll be £350".

 

They have *****zero***** concept of what is going on between that USB cable and their £25k car's engine management system.

 

Or in this case - "That will be £499" 

Or in this case - "That will be £499" 

 

Why are you intent on dragging this out

 

I'm sure when the time comes you'll either decide to have it done or not

 

Personally, for the service provided, you won't find much (if any) better than Ben

 

Plus, if you join Freedom, you might even qualify for a 10% discount  

I was thinking about the economies of this last night. Take the £499, remember that £83.17 goes straight to the VAT office.

£415.83 is what we're actually charging. Faboka understands the concept better than anyone on here, particularly when it comes to software prices etc, so what do we get for our £415.83?

Equipment, well we don't know about the new Octavia III yet if we'll have to invest in me equipment. So let's look at the older Octavia II CR170

I don't have up to date equipment prices so I'll guess, and if I remember rightly it's approx £10k for all the correct cables, hardware, probes etc.

Editing software £3k: for the basic stuff

Dyno: £50k? By the time it's installed, working etc it's knocking on for that, maybe more

Building to put dyno in: well I suppose you don't need a building quite the size of ours (3,000sq ft) but you wouldn't want to be much smaller. £2,000/month

Business rates, ah yes. £500/month

Insurance, £6k/year (ish)

Accountants fees, £2k/year, possibly more

Let's assume we don't have any staff at the moment.

Over 3 years (reasonable life span of most of that equipment, and popularity of the vehicle. Dyno to be fair will last longer, will need maintaining) that's £177k. That's assuming we had £177k in cash and none of it was borrowed (unrealistic). And we haven't yet learned the maps, done the development or paid anyone a salary (which we all have to have, no one can work for free).

There are 253 working days this year, assume the same for 3 years. That's 753.

Now a fair number of you will take advantage of the Freedom discount. Let's assume half.

That means we have to sell 449 maps in 3 years to recoup that investment. That's maps at the most expensive (and time consuming). Now we've already assumed that the building costs are roughly paid for (did I include electricity and gas etc? Don't think I did but this is fag packet maths) but we haven't paid anyone to do it yet. I don't know what a fair wage is, and I used to work in IT so I'm expecting a pay drop. £20k/year? That's £8.52/hour for our opening hours. Reasonable I hope you'd agree.

Let's say the process takes a leisurely 4 hours, that's an additional £35 in time (and I think that's cheap as hourly rates go, I'd wager most of our customers are on more). We still haven't yet done the development.

Add the reasonable £20k/year to the mix and we come to £231k over the 3 years. Nearly a quarter of a million £. I forgot the subscriptions for the tools, £1k/year. So £234k.

You need to be able to telephone us and book in, so we need a telephone and email! Another £50/month. Another £1,800 over our three year period, so pretty much £236k.

Don't forget we attend shows, approx £20k/year, not including cars, or fuel to get there. Damn, that's another £60k. Budget £500/month for a development car. There's another £78k that we didn't think about. So now we're well over £300k. And we still haven't represented our actual development time, which is almost impossible to quantify.

So let's work it out. Taking the most expensive map we do (of course we sell a lot of the lower priced maps too, but I'm trying to make this as simple as possible), we are looking at £315k ish in direct costs. Rough maths say that's 798 maps, if all our maps were sold at the highest rate of £499 which they obviously aren't.

So we've got to sell more than 1 map per working day, every working day, for 3 years solid and we haven't yet worked out our development time or made any profit.

Change that price to £300 (250 excluding the VAT) we'd have to sell 1,260 at full retail price in 753 working days. 1.68 maps per day on average. Just to break even. Go lower to the "anything higher than £245 is taking the ****) price and once you've removed the VAT that would be 1,575. 2.09 maps all day, every single day. At 4 hours per map? We've run out of time in a day!

And I haven't got any time left to answer phone calls and emails, and we don't have any profit left over to employ anyone else to answer the phones, and take the bookings, update Facebook, and post on forums or attend meets and shows! And we still haven't worked out our development time or made a bean!

Hopefully this long post gives you guys a good idea of what actually happens in any business, not just a tuning company or even our tuning company. The figures might not be 100% accurate or representative, but I'm pretty sure you can see where I'm coming from and hope that it now makes a little more sense as to why a map from a reputable tuner might cost a little more than an eBay special.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk