Alex Salmond, only the good bits document

[VWD]

We have Utopia now.

Soon we might not be getting told how to achieve it for the future, and when to enjoy it.

 

I do not support Independence, but i do understand the Politics of Scotland.

george

One thing lost in history is WHY Scotland came to be FORCED into union. When Scots vote, perhaps they might look back in history and see how the Scottish Government was forced into union or bankruptcy. For years (IMPOV) Scotland has had it's resources raped to support the English economy. But then ,I'm an SNP supporter stuck down south . 

Dave .

[theezenutz]

It's not governments that rape a nations resources, that'll be big corporate interest's that do that with the help of governments.

 

Governments rule the people, big corporate interest's rule the governments.

 

http://www.polisci.ccsu.edu/trieb/InfluGov.html

 

http://www.aliciabaylaurel.com/robertfkennedyjr2

Edited 27 November, 2013 by theezenutz

[gadgetman]

If everything is so brilliant why has Salmond dragged it out?

Regarding a few points

The bank of England won't be the lender of last resort. So who will be? This would mean the pound wouldn't be the same value both sides of the border.

Royal mail is a UK public listed company now. It can't be renationalised. Westminster will retain a share not holyrood

Military personnel and assets won't simply be handed over or if they are it'd be on a pro rata basis.

The BBC off loading BBC Scotland to become the SBC would require an act of parliament so unlikely to happen.

EU membership legal advice was sought yet never answered. The general consensus is that unless Westminster agrees to front Scottish membership, then Scotland as a new country would need to apply for EU membership themselves

There's a full run down of the points raised in the doc - http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25102073

And some view points - http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25109390

[trundlenut]

Right I have read through the first 230 odd pages of the declaration of independence and ignoring the first40 odd pages and the all the pretty pictures and word clouds I picked up the following points:

 

England and Wales are screwed economically.

Scotland are taking almost all the oil.

Scotland will help the UK government to pay off a proportion of the national debt, but they won't take any of the national debt.

Scotland will take their place in the EU, NATO and UN to rapturous applause and universal welcome, completely on Scotland's terms.

Scotland will have their own armed forces and it will cost a lost less money to do this than the UK government spends on the armed forces in Scotland.

The Bank of England will stand behind the Scottish Government with their cheque book at the ready.  Oh and set interest rates etc. which will help Scotland even whilst the economy and government spending of England and Wales continues down the toilet.

Scotland will provide services and staff to the UK government to allow the UK government to keep things going in the rest of the UK - that is an interesting idea.

 

The selective use of statistics is typical of political documents, I wait for the No campaigns version where they compare the best range of UK government figures to the worst possible guess at Scottish figures on growth, borrowing, debt etc.  As above everyone south of the border is screwed.

[littleade]

I wonder if the first minister has been to a few too many Nigella dinner parties.....

[czechsmasher]

No mention of how to get brew hoppers ( dole scroungers - won't work, never work ) out their bed and WORK!

How do the oil fields that return 90pc of precious "bonus" income get protected when the RAF Typhoons have flown south and we are supported by the Scottish strike force of what?????????

How does a shipbuilding community ( on the Clyde ) survive when we have 4 ships in the Scottish Navy?

NATS at Prestwick will have a share negotiated by the Scot's Gov from the UK Gov......

I have read 3 chapters from the 5 since yesterday. I apologise if I have missed some points.

HELL OF A LOT OF NEGOTIATING GONNA BE GOIN ON.

I do agree on some points. It will be interesting to see how ALL sides now handle themselves in front of the voting and non voting public over the next 10 months.

[Ootohere]

Scotland will be replacing the Fishery Protection Vessels & Patrol Vessels, Fast Reaction Vessels etc

& the HMRC/Border Agency ones that the UK Government have reduced and scrapped. will require the Scottish Government to provide replacements.

Coastguards Services & Emergency Tugs, Off Shore Wind Farm Support Vessels, etc etc

 

Air Cover will be something that will be a major expense, but Lease & Hiring is available in the Short Term, & the Staff are Trained already,

these were and are being made Redundant by the UK Government.

 

Helicopter Rescue contracted out to Bristow now from the UK Government now and i am sure the Scottish Government 

will continue with contracts.

 

Protection on the Rigs and Installations is already provided by Reservists on those Rigs who are working or just based on them..

I am sure that Marines from Condor loosing jobs will be signing up as part of a Fast Reaction force,

they are already trained and doing that function.

 

Dossers and Wasters,

maybe the Scottish Government will introduce Tougher Benefit Rules.

Proper Schemes & Unemployment Office staff that are trained, Rather than Job Centre Staff that are daft, and hopeless as trained by the UK Government Agency.

Clydebank Offices could get Staff in that do not just follow the DWP current system  of Signing on and submitting Doctors Lines.

Scotlands Pension & Benefits Agency.

 

Lots of jobs will be required to be created, 'Scotlands Driver & Licencing agency', 'Scottish Passport & Visa Issuing agency', 

'Scotland Vehicle Testing & Inspection Services', for Annual Vehicle Testing,

& on and on.

 

Lots to do and so little time in only 18 months from the vote if Yes in September 2014, to Independence day on March 2016.

Have the Government got it all thought out, and have the Voters really got an idea of what is involved. ??

 

george

[Scribbler]

George can i have a pair of your rose tinted glasses please?

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

[Ootohere]

Sorry, sitting thinking and seeing the problems has nothing to do with Rose Tinted glasses, it is just looking at what the obvious things are.

The post above yours just mentions some of what will be required.

That is Employment and continued Employment for many.

 

Some have not the slightest idea of what is Involved and the White Paper does not start to even involve the 

most important things from day to day, Year one, year 2 the first decade.

 

As i told you Yesterday, i am not Pro Independence.

 

Scotland is a wonderful place, so 'Much Cheapness',  and really i could not care less what the vote next September is,

it does not even effect me in the slightest.

I will just live my life as is, and others need to consider how or if they will be effected.

If you do not like your lot, then go stay some place else.

Become a Migrant.

 

george

[mdon]

Scotland will be replacing the Fishery Protection Vessels & Patrol Vessels, Fast Reaction Vessels etc

& the HMRC/Border Agency ones that the UK Government have reduced and scrapped. will require the Scottish Government to provide replacements.

Coastguards Services & Emergency Tugs, Off Shore Wind Farm Support Vessels, etc etc

 

Air Cover will be something that will be a major expense, but Lease & Hiring is available in the Short Term, & the Staff are Trained already,

these were and are being made Redundant by the UK Government.

 

Helicopter Rescue contracted out to Bristow now from the UK Government now and i am sure the Scottish Government 

will continue with contracts.

 

Protection on the Rigs and Installations is already provided by Reservists on those Rigs who are working or just based on them..

I am sure that Marines from Condor loosing jobs will be signing up as part of a Fast Reaction force,

they are already trained and doing that function.

 

Dossers and Wasters,

maybe the Scottish Government will introduce Tougher Benefit Rules.

Proper Schemes & Unemployment Office staff that are trained, Rather than Job Centre Staff that are daft, and hopeless as trained by the UK Government Agency.

Clydebank Offices could get Staff in that do not just follow the DWP current system  of Signing on and submitting Doctors Lines.

Scotlands Pension & Benefits Agency.

 

Lots of jobs will be required to be created, 'Scotlands Driver & Licencing agency', 'Scottish Passport & Visa Issuing agency', 

'Scotland Vehicle Testing & Inspection Services', for Annual Vehicle Testing,

& on and on.

 

Lots to do and so little time in only 18 months from the vote if Yes in September 2014, to Independence day on March 2016.

Have the Government got it all thought out, and have the Voters really got an idea of what is involved. ??

 

george

And with setting up all these agencies, bodies and fast reaction forces etc. how much extra will that cost you as a tax payer? Quite a lot!

As I've said before, at first I wanted a no vote as it will be a bad thing for all concerned, I live within 13 miles of the border and often go to Gretna, Dumfries etc. however I am sick of England and the rest of the UK being slagged off by Scott's so I hope you do get a yes vote then that'll be the end of it and Scotland will come as attractive to me as a trip to France is (which isn't very!) Why can't they move the vote up to February? Also in a earlier post you mention the uk can keep its nuclear waste, good luck with dounreay! Once we've split, it's your problem!

[Guy Incognito]

Why do these debates end up in them and us?  My MIL is English so my kids could compete for England or Scotland.  I lived in London and the although there was ribbing for being a Jock, it was, for the most part, good natured.  Sadly in Scotland, anti English feeling is far less so.  I am not suggesting the majority dislike the English, but there seems to be far more casual hatred, if you can have such a thing, from the Scots towards the English.

 

I would imagine that most of us has blood from North and South of the Border nowadays, and probably some Viking or French or German etc etc etc.

 

The problem with this whole issue is that we will never know if it would work unless we have a go.  Each side will present more or less the same set of figures with a skewed angle to support their argument and never the twain shall meet.  Anyone wanting to stand for public office should immediately be banned from dong so!

[Ootohere]

I think the Nuclear Waste has been getting moved South quite Quickly in the last couple of years, 

thats what those Trains are moving over night.

it is being Sold Abroad, pretty Valuable Stuff.

The Decommissioning is actually not at the Expense of Scotland, even if Scotland becomes Independent. 

 

As to the cost of Setting up new Agencies, you do it right and you do it once.

All the mismanagement & corruption can be dealt with, 

get systems in and staff working to the publics benefit and not some wealthy individuals that hold the current contracts,

Ones signed off by Tony Blair & Gordon Brown, Alastair Darling, 3 Scots that ruined and Bankrupted the UK.

 

DVLA, Pasport Agency etc for the UK is run by Private Compaies owned by the Indian Friend and supporter of Tony Blair.

The Computer systems that the UK Government Commission are not fit for purpose.

Billions Wasted, as in the NHS, Courts System etc.

 

Scots are already paying higher taxes than required to help pay for the UK procurement wastage, 

that is Military, Trident, Planes and Helicopters, and Upgraded Equipment that is scrapped before ever being used,

Ship Building, NHS, Police, Courts, NHS, Green Energy, etc etc.

 

So if the Scots pay what they pay now in Taxes but it stays in Scotland, there is enough for setting up a more efficient future.

Any Scot or resident of Scotland can just cross the Border and live in the North of England, 

they are much of a muchness.

 

george

[hertsnminds]

Why not just look over the pond to see how a United Staes of Great Britain would work. Single currency and defence system but different taxes, laws and other local powers.

 

The thing is how far do you take local control. There are parts of Scotland who feel they are treated differently from others because of geography or population, should they get more devolved powers?

 

There is no single answer. For some things you need local control and for others it makes sense to share. 

[KenONeill]

Why not just look over the pond to see how a United Staes of Great Britain would work. Single currency and defence system but different taxes, laws and other local powers.

 

The thing is how far do you take local control. There are parts of Scotland who feel they are treated differently from others because of geography or population, should they get more devolved powers?

 

There is no single answer. For some things you need local control and for others it makes sense to share. 

I'm sort of pro-Independance, but largely because the Larndarn parties (well, the LibDems might, but they have the chances of a paper cat in a burning straw barn) would not contemplate a US of GB federal state.

[domhnall]

Why not just look over the pond to see how a United Staes of Great Britain would work. Single currency and defence system but different taxes, laws and other local powers.

 

The thing is how far do you take local control. There are parts of Scotland who feel they are treated differently from others because of geography or population, should they get more devolved powers?

 

There is no single answer. For some things you need local control and for others it makes sense to share. 

absolutely right, it could work and it would work much better than the reather dysfuntional set up we have now.

 

The idea was promised by the government as a definite policy, but then the war got in the way. 

 

Back in 1914.

 

The Lib Dems have been promising to definitely bring it back any time now ever since.  Oh except they and their Labour/Tory colleagues ruled it would not happen when they signed the Edinburgh agreement.

 

The tories promised us something similar in 1978 if we rejected devolution.  Guess what? They never delivered.

 

This is why the SNP are where they are - the English parties keep promising all sorts (well in fairness Labour don't they don't accept Scotland is a country) but it's been broken promises ever since the late 1890s. So eventually all of this has led to the SNP and where we are today. 

 

As a country we're not really too radical. I mean we've been dicked around by these parties for over 100 years now and all we've done is elect a government that has promised us a vote. If you messed the Americans, French or even the English around to the same extent and you'd have trouble on your hands. 

[domhnall]

No mention of how to get brew hoppers ( dole scroungers - won't work, never work ) out their bed and WORK!

How do the oil fields that return 90pc of precious "bonus" income get protected when the RAF Typhoons have flown south and we are supported by the Scottish strike force of what?????????

How does a shipbuilding community ( on the Clyde ) survive when we have 4 ships in the Scottish Navy?

NATS at Prestwick will have a share negotiated by the Scot's Gov from the UK Gov......

I have read 3 chapters from the 5 since yesterday. I apologise if I have missed some points.

HELL OF A LOT OF NEGOTIATING GONNA BE GOIN ON.

I do agree on some points. It will be interesting to see how ALL sides now handle themselves in front of the voting and non voting public over the next 10 months.

 

 

I think you're overlooking the fact that spending cuts means the RAF are having to sell off a lot of their typhoons starting in 2015 anyway.

 

 

Typhoon - Best case, the fleet will number 107 planes by 2015/16, with the Tranche 1 planes being retired. The risk of going further down, to around 90, exists and has already been voiced by RAF top brass in a few interviews. The hope is that the cut-syndrome will one day reach a stall, and that 107 planes will survive (out of a planned fleet of 250)  that is arguably the minimum realistic figure to maintain five front line squadrons active in the coming decades. 

 

Oh and the Nimrods that would allowed us to protect the North Sea are gone (more spending cuts). That's why the Russian Navy was able to park off Moray last year and it was two days before our Navy turned up - it takes a while to sail from the South coast of England to the North Sea.

[domhnall]

actually that's good timing, the RAF will be selling 2nd hand nearly new Typhoons in the run up to the time when independence would happen if there was a yes vote.

[czechsmasher]

2 or 3 RAF Typhoons responding to a shout are better than none.

I saw the last Leuchars Air Show with 4 leading the Red Arrows and the solo at East Fortune and and they are beyond amazing. So.

Are the rigs gonna have SAM's manned by suitably trained personnel as an attack will most likely not be sea based.

Nimrods are long gone. Dinosaurs from the 50's no matter how many facelifts internally or externally they get. My brother works for British Aerospace. Biggest waste of money ever. Better with 707s. Only UK pride let us fund this flying toilet bowl.

End of the day they could never fight a ground attack fighter bomber only subs and they suck fuel hence why they are dead. Great looking plane but a museum piece, go see the Dan Air London at East Fortune. Totally out of their depth in the modern world.

Their successor is the AWACS Boeing Sentry E3 based from RAF Waddington, England. So forget their help straight away. Or will Alex speak to NATO and get a Scottish flyby from Luxumbourg in return for some Crowdie, Glenmorangie and a ticket to Brave. To be negotiated further I am sure... Watch this space.

So Lossiemouth will go, RAF will pull out and the Scottish Air Force has an enormous base to fill. With what? Virgin space flights? Book your tickets now Ladies and Gents.

Leuchars and Kinloss have gone unless again they are going to be taken over by the Scottish Defence force. Apologies if this is detailed in chapter 4 but I read 350 pages in one day and it was more than enough in one day. Apologies for my lack of stamina.

Otherwise enormous financial impact on the local economy which has not been mentioned. Royal Marine Commandos will be no more at Condor. Our fast response will be from Faslane. With what? Detail please. Send the Sturgeon with an assault rifle and stun grenades

(Otherwise known as mouth ammo )

What makes the SNP think they can attract a Scottish flight/ naval crew drawn from the RAF/RN, Isn't there a small matter of signing on contracts for a minimum period with pensions, family quarters, pay and future promotion, upgraded flight/naval gradings onto bigger and better postings, world travel etc. Regardless of the fact most RAF/RN personnel in Scotland are not of Scottish origin.

Selling UK technology ( Typhoon ) to a rival independent and allied country may also be an issue. McDonnell Douglas Phantom US producer and Turkey comes to mind. Phantoms only sold when they became old tech and superseded by F16's in USAF. Might not enter the equation but it might if it gets ugly. Depends on the sturge keeping her mouth clean. Odds even.

So what's to stop the Russians coming along again? Considering there is so much money in offshore this hasn't really been thought out or is it still to be negotiated without a plan b along with the rest of the white paper....

Ruskies hardly going to be scared of a Scottish Boat Service or a handful of fast jets. Better erect a Scottish Hadrians Wall of wind turbines on land and sea. Hopefully will keep out the wig afront that is the Trumpasaurus and the rusky jets will intake his wig as FOD and crash under the waves. Who needs Star Wars Ronnie when you have the force of the Turbine?

Recommision the Maid of the Loch or P.S. Waverley sending off a second hand 30 yr old Lynx, we may be lucky and get Airmiles Andy to fly it via Turnberry, Royal Troon, Dundonald, Cameron House, Gleneagles and Royal Dornach, refuelling stops "of course"

I seem to remember Lightnings, Phantoms, Tornados and even Typhoons intercepting Ruski Antonov's since the 60's. Or Vulcans running 24/7 at the end of the runway to respond In the Cold War. Will they now be electrically charged Eco Friendly renewable sponsored gliders with green bombs spreading the word "vote Indy" ?

We have trouble enforcing the cod quotas with Iceland let alone dealing with possible threats to our " new found wealth"

Oh and Why are the Red Arrows placing TWO new Scottish pilots this year from Typhoon Lossiemouth?

Plot thickens...

[Moist Von Lipwig]

Like all politics none of the players actually tells the whole story and just tells you there side of it using the statistics to their advantage.

The document the SNP have published really is a rose tinted view of it all and a wonderous piece of propoganda which when you start to look a bit deeper tells you all the good things in great detail, skims extremely quickly over the potential issues and is based on significant amounts of assumption and not small assumptions, these are massive ones which if they are wrong will have a significant impact on the people of Scotland.

One bit in the Defence section I did giggle at was they were going on repeatedly about the lack of any Maritime Patrol Aircraft being based in Scotland, this is such an issue as Scotland is a maritime nation, etcc... Then right at the end they mention the UK doesn't actually currently have ANY Maritime Patrol Aircraft so procurement of them may take some time!

Maybe some of it will pan out as true, maybe some will fall flat on it's face, I really don't know but you can be sure that the SNP will make sure that success is theirs and failure is someone else's.

Edited 29 November, 2013 by Moist Von Lipwig

[Ootohere]

Somebody needs to look to the Future & make plans, because the UK Government just Cut & Withdraw,

for some reason they Order, Buy then scrap and nothing has any Importance, just signing Contracts,

Pay and if we have the facilities or equipment or the right equipment is irelevant.

 

http://pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/3382961

 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-21492407

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24282002

[gadgetman]

Question time was interesting if you like watching Nicola Sturgeon squirming and avoiding answering anything.

Eddi Reader seemed off her head, and not in a nut job way....

[Moist Von Lipwig]

Somebody needs to look to the Future & make plans, because the UK Government just Cut & Withdraw,

for some reason they Order, Buy then scrap and nothing has any Importance, just sign Contracts,

Pay and if we have the facilities or equipment or the right equipment is irelevant.

 

http://pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/3382961

 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-21492407

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24282002

Not saying the lack of them is right, just making comment that they go on about the lack of the presence of these aircraft specifically in Scotland then almost as a footnote mention actually there are none in the UK anyway.

[Ootohere]

Just saying, the UK Government seem to not care a Jot that the British Isles is a Maritime Nation.

They care little about British Waters, or the protection of.

 

Now when it comes to the likes of Gibraltar, Falklands, and lots of Admirals & pomp and Foreign Visits matters greatly,

but the immediate waters around the UK seem to be of no importance.

Oil Gas, Fisheries etc

It is not only Scotland they ignore and fail to provide the Maritime Protection for, it is the whole of the UK.

 

Somehow the only ones that seem to know or care about the Coastline are the Crown Estate, they like to take what 

they can when ever they can.

At least the royals know there are beaches, sea beds a wealth in them there waters.

Maybe something to do with the fact that Price Philip was a Sailor. Now a Lord High Admiral.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-17430092

 

george

[Moist Von Lipwig]

I agree it is not right, but this is getting off topic.

[Ootohere]

The topic is Independent Scotland or not & can they afford to be an Independent Scotland.

 

Well they pay for the share of Services to the UK, so do the rest of the UK,

The UK Government squander the income and it goes in the Directions of those away from the UK.

The Olympics took a high priority.

Campaingning for the next election always has a high importance.

Just about anything that is about Government and Opposition profiting or having their positions as Politicians,

former Politicians becoming Peers

& senior Civil Servants being kept in the Life Style they like to enjoy and demand that they get.

 

As a UK Government of which ever party or mix of parties,

It is like they take Subscriptions & funds by False Pretences.

 

If someone joins a Health Club and Gym, and pays an Annual Membership you expect Health Club & Gym Facilities and Equipment.

If all that was provided was a Reading Room, a Library stocked with books & Librarians and a Committee of Trustees Ordering & buying Gym Equipment from companies owned by friends and family,

employing & training Fitness Staff and then making them Redundant & selling the new equipment for scrap,

there would be questions being asked.

 

george